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Old
12-06-2011, 05:35 AM
  #76
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by Bag o Chips View Post
With the way the rule is written there is no difference. A goalie is not fair game outside of his crease. Therefore your point is moot and he would be a hypocrite.
i know there is no difference in the rules whether he is in his crease or not. the difference is that it's easier to believe lucic when he says he didn't see miller or tried to avoid him if he's 20 feet from his crease. shanny said he believe him. now i think that's ******** but im not privy to what goes on behind closed doors so i have to take shanny's word for it.

tootoo can't say "i didn't know he was there". it's his crease, of course he's there! he can say that he tried to avoid him by jumping over and we'll see what shanny has to say about that...

shanny has some consistency issues but let's not make two different situation to be similar just so that we can martyr ourselves.

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12-06-2011, 05:37 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
patch on letang is nothing like malone on campoli. malone came from the front, patches came from the side. argue that it should not have been a suspension - and i believe it should have been - but don't compare the two hits.
Not really. Pacioretty was travelling directly toward Letang who was travelling directly towards Pacioretty. Same as Malone on Campoli. The difference is that Letang chose to skate in an Easterly direction, while Campoli was travelling North. Both guys had their heads down. To me, the big difference is that anyone watching the game KNEW that Malone had been looking for trouble ALL NIGHT.

I think the Pacioretty suspension might have been warranted NOT because it was a blindside, which is definitely WASN'T, not because the head was intentionally targetted, because I don't think it was, but only because he stuck the elbow out a bit at the time of the hit. That was reckless. Lots of guys do it but maybe the standard SHOULD be set here, like Patches himself said. Given what other guys have been getting, I thought 3 games was a bit harsh, and that he was given that sentence because Shanahan saw it as a blindside hit ("Cooke-ish") and that was really wrong.

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12-06-2011, 05:37 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dre2112 View Post
Ryan Malone goes all game hitting people from behind and chopping them with his stick then goes and takes out Campoli's head as he extends to get a loose puck = Campoli's fault

Pacioretty goes for a hit, which Letang himself sees coming, and instead of bracing for it, puts himself in a vulnerable position by taking a shot = Pacioretty's fault
one came from the front.

one came from the side.

max should take some hitting lessons from emelin tbh

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12-06-2011, 05:40 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Max comes off looking like a whiner here. He got suspended and he brings up a comparison that Shanahan denies making.

If it was just a misunderstanding (which I suspect it was) then this could've been avoided by talking to the guy. It's a far more mature approach and he should've exercised it.

As for Shanny being all over the map. That's not what's being discussed here. Max deserved the suspension. I have no problem with that.

Should Chara and Lucic have been suspended too? Hell yes. But that's not what Max was speaking out about. He brought up some comment that was made in private by Shanahan... not smart. This has nothing to do with Lucic and his non-call. This is about a player bringing up a private conversation and making it public. And I think it was the wrong way to handle this. If you've got a beef with what the guy said in private, say it to his face... in private. It's one thing if Shanny said it publicly, it's quite another to talk about private disciplinary hearings in public. Wrong thing to do.
I don't think he comes off as a whiner at all. He was asked a question and answered it truthfully. Kudos to Max, it's about time someone stands up to this elite country club. Listening to max is a breath of fresh air.

I also don't think it was the wrong thing to do. He's annoyed, confused and tired of the inconsistencies. I don't see how this could possibly bite Pacioretty is the butt or the habs for that matter, he's calling shanny out for inaccuracies and rightfully so, perhaps this league will turn from garage to the best league in the world again, if people speak out.

The whole head shot thing is annoying me to no end to begin with, if you skate with your head down, you're free to be hit legally as you would be if you had your head up. Most concussions come from clean hits, there is an inherited risk of playing professional hockey, keep your head up, it's been taught since pee wee.

The NHL needs to focus on cheap shots, not bang bang, hockey plays. The lucic hit although nothing really severe was, in fact an avoidable cheap shot. They are getting it all wrong. Hockey plays should not be suspendable, period. Cheap shots, cross checks and hitting from behind should be.

Every tough hit there is a freaking hearing on now and fans screaming bloody murder, it's ridiculous. This is the only league that changes their rules yearly and then doesn't follow the rules they've changed, no wonder this league will never move into the top 3 major sports, it's a gong show ffs.

No more rule changes, the game never needed any in the first place. Leave our game alone. This head shot business is too slippery a slope and too hard to be consistent. Take the instigator out, remove all these bogus rules added in the guise of player safety and watch these cheap shots decline over night. I'm sick of it altogether. There is zero respect out there and ref can never make the players respect one another, suspensions, won't stop them either. There's all kinds of laws on the book for violent crimes, sexual abuse ect, guess what, it hasn't prevented anyone from doing it.

The game itself is the cause here, they should of never changed something to please left wing anti everything *****. It's too violent yadda yadda, so is CSI, WWE and the list goes on. The only answer is to bring respect and accountability back to the ice.


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Old
12-06-2011, 06:03 AM
  #80
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All these rule changes are always reactionary in nature. Usually over reacting. The rules they've changed have helped create the problems they're designed to prevent in the first place.

Look at Sean Avery on Marty Brodeur. This was a joke and there was no rule change required to prevent this, where the hell were Brodeur's teammates, especially his dman, 15-20 years ago the league doesn't go out and add a new rule at the drop of hat for a play like this, the dman would of crunched him, he only did it, because the rules they have changed allowed for this kind of embarrassing behavior. Scott Stevens would of knocked him into next week and rightfully so.

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12-06-2011, 08:24 AM
  #81
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1 - Shanny is adament that no comparison to the Cooke hit was made and that there are many people who can back him up
2 - MaxPac is adament that Shanny brought up the Cooke hit during the ruling and that his GM and agent can back him up

SOMEONE IS CLEARLY LYING!!!

What a shatstorm this is becoming. If MaxPac isn't lying, Pierre Gauthier must step up and defend his player.

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Old
12-06-2011, 08:44 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think Max should keep his lips zipped on the subject, at least publicly.

Nothing good comes from this. If he has a problem with Shanahan... say it to him directly. Don't go to the press with this stuff. Not a smart move.
I agree Max is putting himself on thin ice with the old boys club and based on history he will get no support from the Habs management. I do admire him for having the guts to say what he believes, and I believe too, is the truth. Let's face it, Gauthier was on the line and he could clear this up right now. Molson and Gauthier should have had the b#lls to speak out when Max was demolished by Chara last year. They didn't and Molson became the beer of the NHL.

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Old
12-06-2011, 08:46 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
i know there is no difference in the rules whether he is in his crease or not. the difference is that it's easier to believe lucic when he says he didn't see miller or tried to avoid him if he's 20 feet from his crease. shanny said he believe him. now i think that's ******** but im not privy to what goes on behind closed doors so i have to take shanny's word for it.

tootoo can't say "i didn't know he was there". it's his crease, of course he's there! he can say that he tried to avoid him by jumping over and we'll see what shanny has to say about that...

shanny has some consistency issues but let's not make two different situation to be similar just so that we can martyr ourselves.
That's the biggest crock of BS I've ever heard.

There is no difference in outside or inside the crease. You know this.
Lucic is skating with his head UP, he is chasing the puck, Miller is coming straight at him, about 6feet away from the puck, Lucic stops his strides and braces himself to hit Miller. Lucic knew Miller was there, he did not try to avoid him at all, and completely decked him. There is no clearer attempt to hit a desperate player.
Maybe you need to refresh your mind, and look at the slow replay, Lucic sees Miller, has more than enough time to skate around him, but chooses to hit him. Clear and deliberate.


Now, let's talk about Tootoo's.
Tootoo was also fully aware that he was going to hit Miller. But I believe he makes a much bigger attempt to avoid major impact. He tries to jump and turn, his arms are extended in the air and his hips rotate. You also clearly see Tootoo looking down at the puck, until Ehrhoff pokes it away, once he looks up, he's pretty much a foot away from Miller and tries to pretend like he's avoiding contact.
Tootoo obviously knew what he was doing, but he at least played the comedy and limited the blow. This is probably why Miller didn't suffer another concussion.


To me, Lucic's hit is a million times worse. Crease or not, it changes nothing, it's the same rule.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26480


Also, why exactly should you trust Shanny's words??? The guy has proven to be inconsistent and taken very bad decisions. If anything, he's proven that you should NOT take his words for it.

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Old
12-06-2011, 08:52 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
All these rule changes are always reactionary in nature. Usually over reacting. The rules they've changed have helped create the problems they're designed to prevent in the first place.

Look at Sean Avery on Marty Brodeur. This was a joke and there was no rule change required to prevent this, where the hell were Brodeur's teammates, especially his dman, 15-20 years ago the league doesn't go out and add a new rule at the drop of hat for a play like this, the dman would of crunched him, he only did it, because the rules they have changed allowed for this kind of embarrassing behavior. Scott Stevens would of knocked him into next week and rightfully so.
I agree.
We have not seen eye to eye on the head shots, however, it has definitely become a joke. There is no point in penalizing something if it will remain inconsistent. But I never argued against that, and deep down, I always knew this would happen, which is why I was always extreme. You either penalize all head shots, regardless of accidental or not, or you go back to old rules.
Bring the red line back, no more hard plastic pads, and take out that dumb instigating penalty.

This league could do a heck of a lot better if they weren't so darn inconsistent. So, it's one end or the other imo. Staying in that grey middle as we now are is ridiculous.

The Shanahan show must also stop.

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Old
12-06-2011, 08:54 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
1 - Shanny is adament that no comparison to the Cooke hit was made and that there are many people who can back him up
2 - MaxPac is adament that Shanny brought up the Cooke hit during the ruling and that his GM and agent can back him up

SOMEONE IS CLEARLY LYING!!!

What a shatstorm this is becoming. If MaxPac isn't lying, Pierre Gauthier must step up and defend his player.
Pierre Gauthier is a company guy, through and through. He is more worried about his standing in the league than he is defending his guy, like he should.

Say what you want about Brian Burke, but he would be all over this taking the heat off patches by now. Our management is completely spineless, don't expect this incident to change that, I'd expect PG to tell Patches to keep quiet before defending him.

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12-06-2011, 09:01 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's the biggest crock of BS I've ever heard.

There is no difference in outside or inside the crease. You know this.
Lucic is skating with his head UP, he is chasing the puck, Miller is coming straight at him, about 6feet away from the puck, Lucic stops his strides and braces himself to hit Miller. Lucic knew Miller was there, he did not try to avoid him at all, and completely decked him. There is no clearer attempt to hit a desperate player.
Maybe you need to refresh your mind, and look at the slow replay, Lucic sees Miller, has more than enough time to skate around him, but chooses to hit him. Clear and deliberate.



Now, let's talk about Tootoo's.
Tootoo was also fully aware that he was going to hit Miller. But I believe he makes a much bigger attempt to avoid major impact. He tries to jump and turn, his arms are extended in the air and his hips rotate. You also clearly see Tootoo looking down at the puck, until Ehrhoff pokes it away, once he looks up, he's pretty much a foot away from Miller and tries to pretend like he's avoiding contact.
Tootoo obviously knew what he was doing, but he at least played the comedy and limited the blow. This is probably why Miller didn't suffer another concussion.


To me, Lucic's hit is a million times worse. Crease or not, it changes nothing, it's the same rule.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26480


Also, why exactly should you trust Shanny's words??? The guy has proven to be inconsistent and taken very bad decisions. If anything, he's proven that you should NOT take his words for it.
I agree with you lucic's hit. I can't agree with you about tootoo. He took advantage of the situation and basically superman tackled miller on purpose, nowhere near the same situation, but both should be suspendable.

Tootoo will be suspended imo, and it will only be because Miller was the victim in both situations, you can't let this continue or it's open season on the goalies. BS dropped the ball here and now that miller is involved again, he's really backed into a corner, dumbass, he is.

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12-06-2011, 09:06 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I agree.
We have not seen eye to eye on the head shots, however, it has definitely become a joke. There is no point in penalizing something if it will remain inconsistent. But I never argued against that, and deep down, I always knew this would happen, which is why I was always extreme. You either penalize all head shots, regardless of accidental or not, or you go back to old rules.
Bring the red line back, no more hard plastic pads, and take out that dumb instigating penalty.

This league could do a heck of a lot better if they weren't so darn inconsistent. So, it's one end or the other imo. Staying in that grey middle as we now are is ridiculous.

The Shanahan show must also stop.
I agree kriss, I guess I was giving the league too much credit and thought they would actually take this seriously. Player safety was never the concern, PR was the primary agenda here. It's plain as day that this guy is a yes man for the NHL, I believe many of these decisions are out of BS hands, I hope he steps down and calls the league out for interfering with his work, I don't expect it to happen though.

Poor buffalo and Ryan Miller, I can't believe a league that was supposed to advocating player safety has struck a new low like this. The Sabres have every right to be irate about these plays.

What a freaking joke.

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12-06-2011, 09:07 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I agree with you lucic's hit. I can't agree with you about tootoo. He took advantage of the situation and basically superman tackled miller on purpose, nowhere near the same situation, but both should be suspendable.

Tootoo will be suspended imo, and it will only be because Miller was the victim in both situations, you can't let this continue or it's open season on the goalies. BS dropped the ball here and now that miller is involved again, he's really backed into a corner, dumbass, he is.
Oh I'm not saying he didn't know what he was doing, just that he pretends to make an effort at avoiding contact. But ya, he fully was aware of what was happening.
As opposed to Lucic, who also knew fully well what was going to happen, and made absolutely no effort to avoid Miller. Just skated right through.

But ya, there is no win for Shanny here.
Suspends Tootoo, looks like a big double standard.
Doesn't suspend Tootoo, Buffalo all over him and further reinforces Ruff's comments that it's open season on goalies.

I'm not sure how Shanny can keep his job much longer if things don't improve. This is as bad as it's ever been.

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Old
12-06-2011, 09:22 AM
  #89
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Pierre Gauthier is a company guy, through and through. He is more worried about his standing in the league than he is defending his guy, like he should.

Say what you want about Brian Burke, but he would be all over this taking the heat off patches by now. Our management is completely spineless, don't expect this incident to change that, I'd expect PG to tell Patches to keep quiet before defending him.
Unfortunately, you're right. Our players are stuck with a listless coach and a spineless manager and they know it.

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12-06-2011, 10:27 AM
  #90
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I would like Kerry Fraser making those disciplinary calls....why an ex-player, makes zero sense compared to and retired ref. What a jokes this last few years have been!

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12-06-2011, 10:49 AM
  #91
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That's the biggest crock of BS I've ever heard.

There is no difference in outside or inside the crease. You know this.
Lucic is skating with his head UP, he is chasing the puck, Miller is coming straight at him, about 6feet away from the puck, Lucic stops his strides and braces himself to hit Miller. Lucic knew Miller was there, he did not try to avoid him at all, and completely decked him. There is no clearer attempt to hit a desperate player.
Maybe you need to refresh your mind, and look at the slow replay, Lucic sees Miller, has more than enough time to skate around him, but chooses to hit him. Clear and deliberate.


Now, let's talk about Tootoo's.
Tootoo was also fully aware that he was going to hit Miller. But I believe he makes a much bigger attempt to avoid major impact. He tries to jump and turn, his arms are extended in the air and his hips rotate. You also clearly see Tootoo looking down at the puck, until Ehrhoff pokes it away, once he looks up, he's pretty much a foot away from Miller and tries to pretend like he's avoiding contact.
Tootoo obviously knew what he was doing, but he at least played the comedy and limited the blow. This is probably why Miller didn't suffer another concussion.


To me, Lucic's hit is a million times worse. Crease or not, it changes nothing, it's the same rule.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26480


Also, why exactly should you trust Shanny's words??? The guy has proven to be inconsistent and taken very bad decisions. If anything, he's proven that you should NOT take his words for it.
That Lucic clip is so ****ing blatant. There is no rational reason that Lucic avoided suspension, it's one of the most egregiously unecessary hits on a goalie I've ever seen. What burns me up the most is Lucic knew he wasn't going to face discipline for it. He knows the NHL has the Bruins back. This perception of Bruins favoritism is one of the fundamental reasons Campell was forced to step down. Shanny was brought in specifically to change this perception. Instead he has strongly reinforced it with this unbelievably garbage and indefensible call. Guy had a sterling reputation in Hockey, now he's made himself a total shmuck. The NHL is rotting from the head. Bettman and Jacobs are cancers on the game.

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12-06-2011, 11:46 AM
  #92
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This is just a bad move by Max. Shooting himself in the foot for no reason, creating bad blood with the league.

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12-06-2011, 11:49 AM
  #93
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This is just a bad move by Max. Shooting himself in the foot for no reason, creating bad blood with the league.
Sure ...we have no reason to blame the league ...they have been so kind with the habs the last few years...

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12-06-2011, 11:57 AM
  #94
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Sure ...we have no reason to blame the league ...they have been so kind with the Habs the last few years...
Agreed, other teams would have issue with this but I am glad someone from the Habs stood up to the league. F them, they ain't doin us any favors.

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12-06-2011, 12:04 PM
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This is just a bad move by Max. Shooting himself in the foot for no reason, creating bad blood with the league.
Screw the league. They've done little to nothing to protect its own players until it's biggest cash cow (Crosby) gets hurt. If it takes some **** disturbing to get **** fixed then so be it.

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12-06-2011, 03:41 PM
  #96
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So Tootoo gets 2... How many times as Price been run over like that just this season...

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12-06-2011, 04:44 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
one came from the front.

one came from the side.

max should take some hitting lessons from emelin tbh
Really doesn't matter where you come from when the other guy looks at you a good 2 seconds before you make contact and still decides to put his head back down.

Letang should learn to not be such an idiot.

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12-06-2011, 10:22 PM
  #98
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Really doesn't matter where you come from when the other guy looks at you a good 2 seconds before you make contact and still decides to put his head back down.

Letang should learn to not be such an idiot.
that's certainly debatable.

but pacioretty came from the side so it's easier to to say it was blindside that campoli which wasn't blindside at all. next time pacioretty want to deliver an open-ice hit, he should be 100% certain he's not gonna clip somebody's head. you don't have to destroy the other guy, just get him off the puck. emelin = good. pacman = bad.

i thought he deserved a suspension and while not all hits are alike, 3 games seemed a lot though. fun fact: that's two concussions dealt to other players by habs so far this year (reimer and letang).

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12-07-2011, 12:30 AM
  #99
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I don't think he comes off as a whiner at all. He was asked a question and answered it truthfully. Kudos to Max, it's about time someone stands up to this elite country club. Listening to max is a breath of fresh air.

I also don't think it was the wrong thing to do. He's annoyed, confused and tired of the inconsistencies. I don't see how this could possibly bite Pacioretty is the butt or the habs for that matter, he's calling shanny out for inaccuracies and rightfully so, perhaps this league will turn from garage to the best league in the world again, if people speak out.

The whole head shot thing is annoying me to no end to begin with, if you skate with your head down, you're free to be hit legally as you would be if you had your head up. Most concussions come from clean hits, there is an inherited risk of playing professional hockey, keep your head up, it's been taught since pee wee.

The NHL needs to focus on cheap shots, not bang bang, hockey plays. The lucic hit although nothing really severe was, in fact an avoidable cheap shot. They are getting it all wrong. Hockey plays should not be suspendable, period. Cheap shots, cross checks and hitting from behind should be.

Every tough hit there is a freaking hearing on now and fans screaming bloody murder, it's ridiculous. This is the only league that changes their rules yearly and then doesn't follow the rules they've changed, no wonder this league will never move into the top 3 major sports, it's a gong show ffs.

No more rule changes, the game never needed any in the first place. Leave our game alone. This head shot business is too slippery a slope and too hard to be consistent. Take the instigator out, remove all these bogus rules added in the guise of player safety and watch these cheap shots decline over night. I'm sick of it altogether. There is zero respect out there and ref can never make the players respect one another, suspensions, won't stop them either. There's all kinds of laws on the book for violent crimes, sexual abuse ect, guess what, it hasn't prevented anyone from doing it.

The game itself is the cause here, they should of never changed something to please left wing anti everything *****. It's too violent yadda yadda, so is CSI, WWE and the list goes on. The only answer is to bring respect and accountability back to the ice.
What did he gain from this? If he really felt strongly about this couldn't he have called Shanahan and discussed it with him privately? Wouldn't that have accomplished the same thing without creating animosity with the guy in charge of discipline.

As for the 'whining' portion... yeah, I'm sorry but I see it as whining. I'm sure a lot of other people do too. At the end of the day it's a thinly masked shot at the guy who suspended him. If you're that ticked, go take it up with him in private. Don't go out to the media and do things this way. It doesn't benefit him or us as a whole.

He's young and I suspect that if the same thing happened five years from now he'd take a more mature road to resolving this.

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12-07-2011, 03:48 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What did he gain from this? If he really felt strongly about this couldn't he have called Shanahan and discussed it with him privately? Wouldn't that have accomplished the same thing without creating animosity with the guy in charge of discipline.

As for the 'whining' portion... yeah, I'm sorry but I see it as whining. I'm sure a lot of other people do too. At the end of the day it's a thinly masked shot at the guy who suspended him. If you're that ticked, go take it up with him in private. Don't go out to the media and do things this way. It doesn't benefit him or us as a whole.

He's young and I suspect that if the same thing happened five years from now he'd take a more mature road to resolving this.
You don't have to gain something from every situation, sometimes having pride and sticking up for yourself is all that is needed. He's gained my respect, although I know that's probably not something to be proud of.

As far as discussing this privately, he was asked by a reporter about the hearing and responded with, BS compared it to Matt Cooke and I think that's unfair. That's it, then Shanahan proceeded to go on montreal radio and basically call Pacioretty a liar, Pacioretty responded by saying, talk to my agent, very appropriate response in my opinion.

You should be wondering why Shanahan was so quick to get on radio and discount what Pacioretty had said. As far as creating animosity with the league's head discipline authority, who cares? Is Pacioretty somehow gonna be suspended in the future now because of his words? I doubt it, it might actually make BS think twice about his decision making in the future.

The whole story is being blown out of proportion and making Pacioretty received poorly for simply saying comparing my hit to Cooke's is unfair. To turn this around. Why didn't Shanahan call Pacioretty and say "look Max, I didn't mean that at all, this is what I meant, bla bla bla", why is it Max's responsibility to be accountable for Shanny's words? Seems hypocritical, don't you think?

Why was Shanny so adamant to get on the radio and attempt to clear this up publicly? The NHL's front office is now in the business of speaking publicly about players who disagree? I'm sure if Shanny got on the horn with patches privately, rather than speak out about this publicly, it would be over and done with now. I don't see the problem here at all from Pacioretty's point of view.

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