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Old
12-06-2011, 02:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
No, it would be a STUPID owner that would not spend to the cap.

Spending to the cap yields greater profit.
Burying Gomez potentially, and likely, is a loss move.
See the difference?
to use your language....
The Point
Your Head
You look at it in way too linear a way. Not all teams are in the same position, in one situation an owner/gm can be a genius for spending to the cap where as in another instance they can be made to look like a complete fool. It isn't as cut and dry as "spending to the cap = greater profit".

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12-06-2011, 02:23 PM
  #102
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Absolutely. I fully agree. Just keeping the corporate players up to date.
The CTV/Globe split slipped my mind. Plus, on the Habs side do we even know the ownership split? It's been a well kept secret. Everyone calls Geoff Molson the owner but has his stake in the team ever been published?

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12-06-2011, 02:27 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
You look at it in way too linear a way. Not all teams are in the same position, in one situation an owner/gm can be a genius for spending to the cap where as in another instance they can be made to look like a complete fool. It isn't as cut and dry as "spending to the cap = greater profit".
Isn't it the GM that decides what he will spend where in the first place and not the owner? If the owner is limiting the GM's resources and telling him what to spend where, might as well fire the GM and have the owner make the decisions.

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12-06-2011, 02:28 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
you wrote:



You are wrong.

Cheap owner would still spend to the cap, because its a profitable move. Molson would have to be a stupid investor if he didn't.

You are trying to claim that Molson is not being cheap because he spends to the cap.

Simply put, your example of a cheap owner is faulty.

We will see what he does this summer regarding Gomez... If Gomez is back, than Molson is being cheap.
I'm not really going to bother with it, you have no interest in discussing this and clearly have your preconceived view that Molson is cheap backed with absolutely zero arguments.

So go right ahead, believe Molson is a cheap spender for all I care.

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12-06-2011, 02:28 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Really? wow, I was not aware of this. Maybe next time you can tell me that when an opponent puts a puck in the opposing net, it's called a goal.

Someone that is cheap, limits spending. Simple as that.
Disagree. I know plenty and I mean plenty of people who spend a lot and are cheap as hell. And yeah, spending 300$ on a meal but skimping on the 10$ valet does make you a cheap ass.

Regardless of that though I know plenty of people who are cheap as ****, they won't buy something unless they find the absolutely best deal available even if it is a complete inconvenience to them and actually winds up netting them a big waste of time just to save something in the 0.01-0.99 cent range. If you're willing to waste an extra X amount of hours of your time just to save a couple bucks, whether you spend a lot or very little, imo you're cheap.

If you're constantly concerned about nickels and dimes then yeah I think you're cheap, whether you drive a Ferrari or a pinto. Lets face it if you're rich and you want a Ferrari, you shouldn't care about a measly say... 100$ savings. You just go out and buy the car you want as conveniently as possible.

Saving 10$ on a valet when you're going to spend 300$ on a meal... how many people are going to think you aren't cheap when you pull up to "Chez Insertexpensiverestaurant" and refuse to use valet parking? I know if I was taking a chick out on a date to some 500$/meal restaurant that has valet and refused to pay it and decided to waste 10 more minutes finding parking the chick in question would likely think I'm cheap whether or not I'm spending 500 bucks on a meal. Bottom line is cheap people worry about that type of stuff. People who aren't cheap care about convenience more than money, people who are cheap care about money more than convenience. And yeah obviously there's a difference between being broke and being cheap so obviously people who are smart with their money aren't always necessarily cheap, but if you have the money to spend on a 500$ meal and are worried about the 10$ valet, like you're going to lose sleep over it... kinda hard to say you aren't cheap.

And I don't know if you were the one who used that example or not but either way I just found it was a funny example.

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12-06-2011, 02:29 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
you wrote:



You are wrong.

Cheap owner would still spend to the cap, because its a profitable move. Molson would have to be a stupid investor if he didn't.

You are trying to claim that Molson is not being cheap because he spends to the cap.

Simply put, your example of a cheap owner is faulty.

We will see what he does this summer regarding Gomez... If Gomez is back, than Molson is being cheap.
You're being ridiculous. 7.3 millions is A LOT of money. Even 5 millions, which I believe is his actual salary next year, is a lot of money. I'm not saying Gomez is worth it, I'm saying that he'll only do it if he believes burying him and his salary AND paying a replacement guy will bring in more money, which is not a given. The replacing guy would have to be "worth" 1 playoff round more for it to be worth it...

Would we be better off with Gomez in the minors and Dustin Penner in the lineup? It's an example... I'm not sure it'd be worth it, business wise.

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12-06-2011, 02:29 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Spending to the cap = smart business decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
No, it would be a STUPID owner that would not spend to the cap.

Spending to the cap yields greater profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Cheap owner would still spend to the cap, because its a profitable move. Molson would have to be a stupid investor if he didn't.

You are trying to claim that Molson is not being cheap because he spends to the cap.

Simply put, your example of a cheap owner is faulty.
I keep waiting for an explanation but it seems that none is forthcoming... Unless I totally missed the point

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12-06-2011, 02:29 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Isn't it the GM that decides what he will spend where in the first place and not the owner? If the owner is limiting the GM's resources and telling him what to spend where, might as well fire the GM and have the owner make the decisions.
Right, and when you tell your GM that you can spend to the cap, you're not limiting him of anything.

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12-06-2011, 02:35 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Isn't it the GM that decides what he will spend where in the first place and not the owner? If the owner is limiting the GM's resources and telling him what to spend where, might as well fire the GM and have the owner make the decisions.
Of course the owner tells the GM how much he can spend. It is his $ afterall no ?

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12-06-2011, 02:37 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
And I don't know if you were the one who used that example or not but either way I just found it was a funny example.
Why is saving 10$ on valet when you can park across the street makes you cheap??

Seems to me that people think anybody that doesn't pretty much throw away money is cheap.

Not wasting money does not make you cheap. If you travel across the world to save 35 cents on a piece of bread when you can afford it, then sure, but if you're already spending a lot of money on something and want to save a bit of extra cash, I'm sorry, that doesn't make you cheap, at all.

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12-06-2011, 02:38 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Isn't it the GM that decides what he will spend where in the first place and not the owner? If the owner is limiting the GM's resources and telling him what to spend where, might as well fire the GM and have the owner make the decisions.
Not disagreeing all I'm saying is that sometimes it isn't as simple as that. Some teams like say... Tampa, maybe can't spend to the cap or they risk going bankrupt and the owner having to eat -25 million a year rather than breaking even =/= cheap, it means he's running his business properly.

It's like if I owned a company and I hired you to be my general manager. Obviously if you wanted to say... I don't know... invest in a new employee, I'd probably let you do your job and not need to give you any go ahead, it would just be your job. Say you now want to hire 10 new employees and we have barely broken even for 3 years straight though... do you not think that would be a problem? I mean obviously at the end of the day I'm the owner you are the general manager, I hire you to make those decisions, the thing is though at some point it comes down to dollars. Obviously any competent GM either has to factor in if this is affordable or not or at least ask.

I think people look at it as PG running to Molson to ask permission. It isn't like that at all but when big decisions are made of course he probably runs it by the owner. Remember Molson is his boss, he isn't going to want to do something that would be a huge risk without at least running it by his boss first, not because Molson is asking but because he feels it's his responsibility to do so. You aren't the one who has to worry if you hire 10 people and then the company can't afford to pay them, you might lose your job but that's not a huge deal compared to your bankrupt boss Obviously it's gotta be some kind of team work, and small/medium decisions are 100% PG and major ones he likely needs to consult the ownership.

With smaller market teams that spend lower the leash is probably tighter than major market teams where they can take a loss now and then if they get unlucky. At the end of the day it is a business. They do hire the GM to do a job like you said, but think about it like any business really... how often are the owners complete absentee of their company? And I'm not talking about some guy who owns a Tim Hortons and pays a person to manage it 24/7, I'm talking about major companies. Sure people are put in place due to their knowledge but at the end of the day the money has to come from somewhere. I'm sure you do agree burying Gomez is a major decision and not a minor one. The owner stands to lose a ton of money.

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12-06-2011, 02:38 PM
  #112
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Are we at the "fire Molson" stage?

Personally, I hope that Molson really is speaking his mind. I think it shows that he's not going to be moved by shallow, reactionnary analysis and that he has (perhaps via Gauthier) a much deeper and more accurate view of how his team really is doing.

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12-06-2011, 02:39 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The CTV/Globe split slipped my mind. Plus, on the Habs side do we even know the ownership split? It's been a well kept secret. Everyone calls Geoff Molson the owner but has his stake in the team ever been published?
Well owners are Him, Andrew and John.
i don't see what his stake has to do with anything.

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12-06-2011, 02:45 PM
  #114
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Everyone should keep in mind that a GM has more to think about than the cap. The budget planning process would include all hockey operations categories. So he may be given let's say a $70M budget that took into account all salaries, travel, ice time rentals, equipment, whatever and the GM has to manage and track those cost categories.
I just know how it works in my company.

So, let's say he decides to pay Bob Gainey $5M/yr he would have to find money in another category to offset the overspend on the Useless Consultant category.

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12-06-2011, 02:46 PM
  #115
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Keep the owners out of the way. You'll end up like the Islanders or Tampa in the Oren Koules days otherwise.

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12-06-2011, 02:48 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I'm not really going to bother with it, you have no interest in discussing this and clearly have your preconceived view that Molson is cheap backed with absolutely zero arguments.

So go right ahead, believe Molson is a cheap spender for all I care.
facepalm


I said, and I'll say it again, I'll give Molson this summer before I judge him for being cheap or not. Reading comprehension issue???

At the end of the day -- if Gomez returns, means that Molson is thinking of $$$

I don't think we have an owner who comes from the '' do whatever it takes to win even if it could cost me millions'' spending mentality. But again, I'll wait for the summer developments.

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12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
You look at it in way too linear a way. Not all teams are in the same position, in one situation an owner/gm can be a genius for spending to the cap where as in another instance they can be made to look like a complete fool. It isn't as cut and dry as "spending to the cap = greater profit".
of course it isn't cut and dry as that...

it's also not cut and dry that burying Gomez will incur losses to Molson...

Molson can bury Gomez and his cap replacement can take us to the Cup !

We don't know... but we have to use more plausible case scenarios.

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12-06-2011, 02:51 PM
  #118
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Well owners are Him, Andrew and John.
i don't see what his stake has to do with anything.
Uh, no.

The ownership group is made up of the Molsons, The Woodbridge Company, Bell, the QFL Solidarity Fund, Michael Andlauer, Luc Bertrand and the National Bank Financial Group.

Geoff Molson's stake in the group has never been published so there is no way of knowing how much influence he has.

So as you can see my question has A LOT to do with EVERYTHING.

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12-06-2011, 02:52 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why is saving 10$ on valet when you can park across the street makes you cheap??

Seems to me that people think anybody that doesn't pretty much throw away money is cheap.

Not wasting money does not make you cheap.
OK - well say I'm alone at a bus terminus and I don't have a phone. I could easily spend the 50 cents on a call but there are plenty of other people around who do have cell phones. I should just go ask a random person to use their phone even though I have 50 cents and can make the call? That isn't being cheap it's just not wasting money? By your logic, that isn't being cheap even though I'm willing to inconvenience myself and others in order to do the call for free.

There's a point where a line has to be drawn. For one valet parking isn't as big a waste of money as spending 500$ for a meal that costs 50$ with overhead for a restaurant to produce. So it's a moot point anyways, by going to a restaurant like that technically you are wasting money. There are other restaurants that are as good if not better than don't cost that kind of money, it's basically a status symbol. In fact most parking lots in the city charge around 8 bucks, and there are meters in any convenient location and that's if you can even find a spot which in a lot of cases you can't. The overall inconvenience people are willing to experience in order to save 10$ when they're going to spend 500$ on a meal in the same instance is what imo makes them cheap.

Not saying "not wasting money makes you cheap" but there's gotta be a place to draw the line. I've seen people argue with cashiers over 5 cents practically dude. Are they not cheap either wasting 10 minutes of their time and everyone else arguing over a transaction that cost them 5 cents more than it should? I understand for some people they'll say its the principle but I don't care what excuse they use, that's cheap. It's 5 cents, yeah you might not be wasting money... it's still cheap.

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12-06-2011, 02:53 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
of course it isn't cut and dry as that...

it's also not cut and dry that burying Gomez will incur losses to Molson...

Molson can bury Gomez and his cap replacement can take us to the Cup !

We don't know... but we have to use more plausible case scenarios.
Agreed. Obviously it isn't as simple as everyone is making it sound in general. In fact they could stand to even lose more money if the player they get turns into Gomez 2.0, you never know right?

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12-06-2011, 02:56 PM
  #121
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I keep waiting for an explanation but it seems that none is forthcoming... Unless I totally missed the point
I'm not sure I follow what you're not following...?

My whole point is, just because Molson spends to the cap doesn't mean we have an owner who is willing to bury Gomez's 10 million owed starting next year.

It takes an owner with deep pockets to do that, but also one with a special mentality that sees his franchise success translated into championships.

I'm sure if Molson knew that burying Gomez would yield a cup or Championship he'd do it.. but he doesn't it... so if he's really as conservative as some might suspect, he's going to take the conservative approach and Gomez will be back.

We shall see.

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12-06-2011, 03:05 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I'm not sure I follow what you're not following...?

My whole point is, just because Molson spends to the cap doesn't mean we have an owner who is willing to bury Gomez's 10 million owed starting next year.

It takes an owner with deep pockets to do that, but also one with a special mentality that sees his franchise success translated into championships.

I'm sure if Molson knew that burying Gomez would yield a cup or Championship he'd do it.. but he doesn't it... so if he's really as conservative as some might suspect, he's going to take the conservative approach and Gomez will be back.

We shall see.
That's a completely different discussion (and I understand your point)

What I'm having a hard time understanding is your following claims:

"Spending to the cap = smart business decision"

"No, it would be a STUPID owner that would not spend to the cap. Spending to the cap yields greater profit"

"Cheap owner would still spend to the cap, because its a profitable move"

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12-06-2011, 03:28 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by AHMB Prez View Post
He said in an interview with RDS. " We have the management team in place to win " !

He actually said " we are doing well " !! Of course the Bell is full.

Ok well first of all I disagree but its his team. Second of all, he did not mention coaching at all...


does that mean what I hope it means??????

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12-06-2011, 03:36 PM
  #124
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Some accountability has to rest with the players. We've only had a couple forwards that I would call consistent. Imagine if Cammy, Gio, Gomez, Eller were producing like they should. If Eller would learn to finish, he'd have 10 goals by now. And yes, Gomez is capable of playing better.

Even Price has been inconsitent this year. Subban too. While I don't like JM, and we have had a lot of injuries, the guys who should be producing at a better pace just aren't.

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12-06-2011, 03:39 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
facepalm


I said, and I'll say it again, I'll give Molson this summer before I judge him for being cheap or not. Reading comprehension issue???

At the end of the day -- if Gomez returns, means that Molson is thinking of $$$

I don't think we have an owner who comes from the '' do whatever it takes to win even if it could cost me millions'' spending mentality. But again, I'll wait for the summer developments.

Dude, just give it a rest..

Even if he decides to not bury Gomez in the minors doesn't mean he's cheap for God sakes.
To think that this is what makes a GM cheap is completely moronic.

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