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Iginla + for Semin +

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Old
12-07-2011, 11:07 AM
  #101
IafrateOvie34
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We're in 9th place in the Eastern Conference currently and this is a deep draft. The Caps are no where near being a contender this year to make a big trade and trade away future assets. Had this been 2010 or even last year, sure giving up the future for an Iginla type would be smart. Caps need to work on making the playoffs, make some tweaks, and hold on to our prospects/picks and retool in the offseason. Anyone that has watched this team knows we aren't going to be a deep playoff team. We'll most likely make the playoffs, but it will be 1st round and done. As for those that go crying salary cap, we'll be getting rid of Semin and a few others at the end of the season. We don't need to make desperation moves. That would be 1997 all over again and a huge failure. This team needs to retool and build around Dale Hunter's system.

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12-07-2011, 11:08 AM
  #102
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As an Oiler fan I want this to happen.

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12-07-2011, 11:09 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blasimon View Post
All this talk about Semin being an impending ufa... it's not like Iginla is signed long term either. He has 1.5yr left, and will be 36 at the end of it. Given the caps 1st round pick may be high, I think that Semin+1st+one prospect is fair from a value perspective.
Not to compare the two players but Dustin Penner was traded last season at the deadline for Colten Teubert, a first round draft pick in 2011, as well as a conditional second round pick in 2012.

I know that Iggy is older but Penner never came close to getting the same points or goals that Iggy did at age 33. Iggy is worth far more than your offer IMO.

You might just be right though, provided that the pick is Col`s first.

Semin
Col 1st
Wash 1st 2013 ( If Semin walks in July)
High End prospect.


I highly doubt either team would do it but that sems pretty fair to me.

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12-07-2011, 11:18 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Considering what has been said about Semin by a former teammate, I really don't think any teams will pay a premium for him as a rental, or possibly anything at all.

Also if the Flames are rebuilding re-signing Semin doesn't make sense for the team or player (if he actually cares about winning which seems debatable).

Semin on the Flames makes no sense and would only be included for salary purposes, not because they actually want him on the team.

But unless some of the untouchables on that list another poster wrote up, there would be no deal anyways.
I would hope NHL GMs have much better sources on players' character than interviews from after a guy was traded. Bradley's comments drive fan perception down, not value to a GM. Any GM worth his salt would need a lot more than that to make a character judgement on a player.

Semin is different from other deadline rentals. He is higher skill and much younger than the average rental. At 27, he can still be a member of a team's core, should they choose to keep him. The fact that he is UFA puts all the power into the hands of the acquiring team.

Re: this specific situation, it is zero risk for Calgary. If there's a better deal, it would involve a young established core player IMO - but I have a hard time seeing a team trading their young established core player for an old established core player. If that were the case, you have to think it would be the Flames adding value.

If you don't like Semin, then this deal is Holtby + (whatever the + is, Eklund only knows) + whatever you can get for Semin at the deadline. It's not a stretch to think Semin could return a 1st as a rental, unless he completely craps the bed - but if they think he'd do that, they wouldn't have interest in the first place.

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12-07-2011, 11:25 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Not to compare the two players but Dustin Penner was traded last season at the deadline for Colten Teubert, a first round draft pick in 2011, as well as a conditional second round pick in 2012.

I know that Iggy is older but Penner never came close to getting the same points or goals that Iggy did at age 33. Iggy is worth far more than your offer IMO.

You might just be right though, provided that the pick is Col`s first.

Semin
Col 1st
Wash 1st 2013 ( If Semin walks in July)
High End prospect.


I highly doubt either team would do it but that sems pretty fair to me.
Penner also never came close to getting the same points that Semin did.

That said, I see this rumor as Iginla+ for Holtby+, not for Semin+. Which is a whole other bag of chips.

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12-07-2011, 11:26 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I would hope NHL GMs have much better sources on players' character than interviews from after a guy was traded. Bradley's comments drive fan perception down, not value to a GM. Any GM worth his salt would need a lot more than that to make a character judgement on a player.

Semin is different from other deadline rentals. He is higher skill and much younger than the average rental. At 27, he can still be a member of a team's core, should they choose to keep him. The fact that he is UFA puts all the power into the hands of the acquiring team.

Re: this specific situation, it is zero risk for Calgary. If there's a better deal, it would involve a young established core player IMO - but I have a hard time seeing a team trading their young established core player for an old established core player. If that were the case, you have to think it would be the Flames adding value.

If you don't like Semin, then this deal is Holtby + (whatever the + is, Eklund only knows) + whatever you can get for Semin at the deadline. It's not a stretch to think Semin could return a 1st as a rental, unless he completely craps the bed - but if they think he'd do that, they wouldn't have interest in the first place.
Scott Hannan made some comments too, he obviously wasn't as blunt nor did he name names but I got the impression he was saying the same thing.

and you are wrong, there is a ton of risk for Calgary. They would be moving the face of their franchise and that is never risk free no matter how good the return. That's why it would have to be an exceptional return.

For the record I have no problem with certain elements of the deal being conditional if Semin leaves (or stays, depending on which side of the deal the conditions are on) my suggestion at one point I believe was Col 1st, Semin, Eakin & Holtby for Iginla & Cond. 1st in 2013 (if Semin is resigned or traded at the deadline)

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12-07-2011, 11:40 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Penner also never came close to getting the same points that Semin did.
That said, I see this rumor as Iginla+ for Holtby+, not for Semin+. Which is a whole other bag of chips.

Thats a fair point but the fact remains that he is a UFA. For a rebuilding team, trading your star for a UFA is a big NO-NO. Unless of course you add the other pieces I mentioned in my other post.

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12-07-2011, 11:51 AM
  #108
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One question: Who the heck would be interested in a 6 million dollar healthy scratch with a poor work ethic that is a UFA at the end of the season?

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12-07-2011, 11:56 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I would hope NHL GMs have much better sources on players' character than interviews from after a guy was traded. Bradley's comments drive fan perception down, not value to a GM. Any GM worth his salt would need a lot more than that to make a character judgement on a player.

Semin is different from other deadline rentals. He is higher skill and much younger than the average rental. At 27, he can still be a member of a team's core, should they choose to keep him. The fact that he is UFA puts all the power into the hands of the acquiring team.

Re: this specific situation, it is zero risk for Calgary. If there's a better deal, it would involve a young established core player IMO - but I have a hard time seeing a team trading their young established core player for an old established core player. If that were the case, you have to think it would be the Flames adding value.

If you don't like Semin, then this deal is Holtby + (whatever the + is, Eklund only knows) + whatever you can get for Semin at the deadline. It's not a stretch to think Semin could return a 1st as a rental, unless he completely craps the bed - but if they think he'd do that, they wouldn't have interest in the first place.
He's doing it now. His playoff record also suggests acquiring him strictly for the playoffs would be a huge risk.

Caps fans might not like it but this kid has zero value until he can start putting up points again.

In terms of his UFA value -- Semin will ask for big money -- which puts the team acquiring him at risk. His situation will be like Kaberle -- after most of the league passes he'll sign at a discount -- then the team will regret it for years.

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12-07-2011, 12:02 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Thats a fair point but the fact remains that he is a UFA. For a rebuilding team, trading your star for a UFA is a big NO-NO. Unless of course you add the other pieces I mentioned in my other post.
See my prior post about Semin's UFA status.

IMO, by the time Calgary is truly relevant again, Iginla won't be. That's why I think Feaster could have an interest in moving him while his value is high.

Of course, I've said in other threads that I don't see Iginla waiving his NTC. I think he'll go down with the ship, for better or worse.

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12-07-2011, 12:02 PM
  #111
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As much as I believe Iginla will be playing into his 40's, he is simply a short-term solution for any team looking to acquire his services.

As is any playoff rental. It has been this way for years and years and years.

However, in Iginla, you're getting a premium playoff-performing individual. He always ups his game at that time. This guy is money in the post-season. This is the type of player that trade deadline GM's dream about.

Adding Iginla increases your chances in the post-season. Scoring, leadership, physicality, clutch play, there's many reasons for this.

If you want Iginla, you're obviously making a serious run at the Cup. You cannot look at it as anything else. That said, how much does a cup contender want to increase their chances in going the distance?

Iginla's playoff abilities are well-known around the league.

Teams will have to pay as such.

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12-07-2011, 12:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
As much as I believe Iginla will be playing into his 40's, he is simply a short-term solution for any team looking to acquire his services.

As is any playoff rental. It has been this way for years and years and years.

However, in Iginla, you're getting a premium playoff-performing individual. He always ups his game at that time. This guy is money in the post-season. This is the type of player that trade deadline GM's dream about.

Adding Iginla increases your chances in the post-season. Scoring, leadership, physicality, clutch play, there's many reasons for this.

If you want Iginla, you're obviously making a serious run at the Cup. You cannot look at it as anything else. That said, how much does a cup contender want to increase their chances in going the distance?

Iginla's playoff abilities are well-known around the league.

Teams will have to pay as such.
Agreed. I'm sure players like Semin aren't on the Flames wishlist of players to build around.

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12-07-2011, 12:11 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
He's doing it now. His playoff record also suggests acquiring him strictly for the playoffs would be a huge risk.

Caps fans might not like it but this kid has zero value until he can start putting up points again.

In terms of his UFA value -- Semin will ask for big money -- which puts the team acquiring him at risk. His situation will be like Kaberle -- after most of the league passes he'll sign at a discount -- then the team will regret it for years.
Actually, what he's doing now is working hard and playing good two-way hockey for Hunter, aside from missing a couple of games with a shoulder injury that came when he drew a boarding penalty. But yeah, totally crapping the bed.

And 30 points in 37 playoff games is a huge risk. Yup. No way anybody would want a guy like that.

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12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
  #114
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Iginla with another 3 point night last night. 8 points in 6 games and quickly racking up goals. His slow start is officially over. Now can we get to the real offers for a franchise player that is likely to have yet another 40+ goal season.

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12-07-2011, 12:14 PM
  #115
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An Iginla for Semin deal will go down in history as even worse than the Phaneuf trade. Book it, Semin won't re-sign in Calgary even if they traded the world for him.

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12-07-2011, 12:21 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Scott Hannan made some comments too, he obviously wasn't as blunt nor did he name names but I got the impression he was saying the same thing.

and you are wrong, there is a ton of risk for Calgary. They would be moving the face of their franchise and that is never risk free no matter how good the return. That's why it would have to be an exceptional return.

For the record I have no problem with certain elements of the deal being conditional if Semin leaves (or stays, depending on which side of the deal the conditions are on) my suggestion at one point I believe was Col 1st, Semin, Eakin & Holtby for Iginla & Cond. 1st in 2013 (if Semin is resigned or traded at the deadline)
So Hannan didn't really say the same thing and it wasn't about anyone specific, but he actually meant the exact same thing about Semin in particular? I can see how you might reach that conclusion.

Who is the face of the franchise when Iginla retires? Not Semin, in all likelihood - Holtby? A player to be drafted this year? A current prospect? Backlund? A primary part of Feaster's job is to create that future.

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12-07-2011, 12:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Actually, what he's doing now is working hard and playing good two-way hockey for Hunter, aside from missing a couple of games with a shoulder injury that came when he drew a boarding penalty. But yeah, totally crapping the bed.

And 30 points in 37 playoff games is a huge risk. Yup. No way anybody would want a guy like that.
As others have said the Flames are in a longer-term rebuild mode. Semin doesn't really fit. Neither does a goaltender prospect which is why this reported deal makes absolutely no sense.

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12-07-2011, 12:31 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
So Hannan didn't really say the same thing and it wasn't about anyone specific, but he actually meant the exact same thing about Semin in particular? I can see how you might reach that conclusion.

Who is the face of the franchise when Iginla retires? Not Semin, in all likelihood - Holtby? A player to be drafted this year? A current prospect? Backlund? A primary part of Feaster's job is to create that future.
The Can't Miss Swiss, Sven Baertschi. Book it.

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12-07-2011, 12:37 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
An Iginla for Semin deal will go down in history as even worse than the Phaneuf trade. Book it, Semin won't re-sign in Calgary even if they traded the world for him.
The Flames would be much much better off throwing an offer at Semin at the deadline, if that was there plan, which it probably isn't.

My guess is the Flames "rebuild" won't go on as long as peopel think. Feaster has done a great job of acquiring some potential in Baertschi, Horak, Byron, Comeau, Smith, Granlund, and Butler.

My guess is the Flames go heavy after Parise and Suter. Semin could, however, be a backup plan. I don't think we'll see the long Oiler style rebuild. I think Florida is a great example of how it doesn't work. Florida eventually said @#$@# it and added a bunch of vets and UFA to the talent they had. A much better way to go.

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12-07-2011, 12:45 PM
  #120
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I don't buy that the Flames want Semin at all.

Giving up Butler makes absolutely no sense - he's young, has played decently and Giordano is gone for an extended period - why the heck would the Flames be dumping him, so they could promote a 4th AHL defenceman?

Getting Holtby also makes absolutely no sense - he's comparable to Irving, who is a solid goaltending prospect. He doesn't add anything to the Flames organization.

It's possible the Flames and Caps could be trading partners, but not with these pieces involved. Eklund really should think before he writes this garbage.

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12-07-2011, 12:48 PM
  #121
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Yeah, but this also assumes that Caps are in "win now" mode, which they aren't (or at least shouldn't be). That is reserved for teams whose windows are closing because their core of stars is aging fast, like San Jose. Caps aren't that desperate, and if they can stomach another year or two of working on learning playoff hockey, and maybe getting past the second round, then they are in prime position to have a 3-4 year run as a Cup favorite. So, while it would make sense for San Jose, or the Red Wings, to enter win now mode, it makes little sense for Caps to do the same.
Yeah, it's been said that they're in win now mode, but i feel that their greatest chance is when the 1st and 2nd year players start entering their prime. I am honestly hoping for a semi-rebuild to make the Caps chances even bigger when that time occurs.
Semin and Green are expendable and should be turned into players hitting their prime the same time as Carlson, Alzner, Holtby etc. With Ovie and Backie hopefully a little more mature than they are right now.

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12-07-2011, 12:52 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
An Iginla for Semin deal will go down in history as even worse than the Phaneuf trade. Book it, Semin won't re-sign in Calgary even if they traded the world for him.
IF Calgary was to trade Iginla to Washington, then Semin would almost have to be involved to make the cap space work. Not saying he would be the main piece of the trade but he would need to be a piece.

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12-07-2011, 12:58 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
So Hannan didn't really say the same thing and it wasn't about anyone specific, but he actually meant the exact same thing about Semin in particular? I can see how you might reach that conclusion.

Who is the face of the franchise when Iginla retires? Not Semin, in all likelihood - Holtby? A player to be drafted this year? A current prospect? Backlund? A primary part of Feaster's job is to create that future.
Hannan said something to the tune of members in that dressing room not being committed to winning. Then not long later the other comments about Semin came out. You don't always need things said directly to come to a reasonable conclusion.

As for the face of the franchise when Iginla retires, who knows. But trading Iginla is still a risk no matter how you want to slice it. That is all I was saying. You don't move Iginla for a package that doesn't make complete sense.

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12-07-2011, 01:01 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by secretsquirrel View Post
IF Calgary was to trade Iginla to Washington, then Semin would almost have to be involved to make the cap space work. Not saying he would be the main piece of the trade but he would need to be a piece.
I think most would agree with that. But what Flames fans are saying is essentially come up with a deal for Iginla, then add in Semin to balance salaries even though we don't want him

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12-07-2011, 01:31 PM
  #125
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Not to compare the two players but Dustin Penner was traded last season at the deadline for Colten Teubert, a first round draft pick in 2011, as well as a conditional second round pick in 2012.I know that Iggy is older but Penner never came close to getting the same points or goals that Iggy did at age 33. Iggy is worth far more than your offer IMO.

You might just be right though, provided that the pick is Col`s first.

Semin
Col 1st
Wash 1st 2013 ( If Semin walks in July)
High End prospect.


I highly doubt either team would do it but that sems pretty fair to me.
And you don't think LA is regretting that horrible trade now? If anything that trade is the poster child of why the Caps wouldn't offer the farm for anyone.

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