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Gm #27 Kings @ Ducks, 12/6/11 - Post Game LOSS, Thoughts & Tidbits

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12-07-2011, 04:17 PM
  #251
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3. Fire Murray if this team is .500 or below on 1-1-12. That record is completely unacceptable and while it isn't all Terry's fault, this team isn't going to get blown up and Deano isn't going to be axed first so there you go. This team seems to play like they've tuned him out, which isn't surprising since all of his boys never get benched. I'd like to see more pride out of the guys on the ice but this is still a job. You and I may not make $7MM a year but we still hate going to work if it's no fun and we don't like our boss. I truly believe his time is over but it's going to take a losing streak for him to get axed.
They are 13-14 at the moment.

Why give TM till January when they are below .500 now?

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12-07-2011, 04:23 PM
  #252
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OR is it not adjusting the coaching style to fit the personnel?

Trying to jam a square peg through a round hole?

TM is stubborn...and if Williams isn't a grind line style player...why try to make him?


It's not a player issue if your coach is making you play in a system that doesn't suit your style.

Williams has been in the league, and been a successful player in this league for several years...Penner as well..Ponikarovsky...

there is give and take...you can't make players play with a style they aren't comfrotable with...and players can't expect to play the game they want 100% of the time. But none the less...Terry Murray is a very very stubborn man...we have all seen that over his tenure...

Do you think he would be one to adjust HIS system just so Justin Williams doesn't have to grind it out along the boards? I don't think so...he'll say tough....or if he doesn't do it...he'll bench em, like he has in the past. Like he has done with Penner, and Parse, and Poni, and Frolov and Loktionov and all other players who don't want to play his dump and grind style.
Then why is Terry Murray coaching this team ? and why did Dean Lombardi Hand him players that can't perform in it?

Terry Murray didn't make this roster..... Dean Lombardi did. Terry Murray with his Stubborn system and Attitude (Of which no one has any concrete proof of). Didn't hire himself (Dean Hired him).

Terry Murray didn't trade for Justin Williams. (BTW Justin Williams has always been a guy that is not shy about Dot to board play, See old Carolina games).

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12-07-2011, 04:25 PM
  #253
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The games I have watched, Hunter has been just fine, he makes the smart plays, moves the puck, crowds the net,

Everyone was *****ing about how he was on the PP, he was one of the few Kings that would STAND in FRONT of the net and take the abuse.

Moreau, finishes his hits, gets in the corner, drives the net occasionally, should be doing that more,

Neither are a hindrance in the defensive zone,

What do you expect out of your 3rd/4th liners? Just curious..
From a cup contending team??

I expect guys like Dan Paille, Shawn Thornton, Dan Cleary, Tyler Kennedy, Wayne Simmonds, Troy Brouwer, Dave Bolland, Darren Helm etc.

Players who bring something to the table as opposed to just not being terrible. Speed, physicality, intimidation, PK skills, the ability to chip in goals.

Moreau and Hunter would not play the minutes they do on our team on Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh. Not even close.

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12-07-2011, 04:28 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Seventyx7 View Post
From a cup contending team??

I expect guys like Dan Paille, Shawn Thornton, Dan Cleary, Tyler Kennedy, Wayne Simmonds, Troy Brouwer, Dave Bolland, Darren Helm etc.

Players who bring something to the table as opposed to just not being terrible. Speed, physicality, intimidation, PK skills, the ability to chip in goals.

Moreau and Hunter would not play the minutes they do on our team on Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh. Not even close.
Then you need to be asking Dean Lombardi were those players are. Not Terry Murray.

No one is going to turn Clifford into Dave Bolland. Not even Bylsma.

I am all for firing Terry Murray, But everyone is giving Dean Lombardi a pass, he doesn't Deserve.

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12-07-2011, 04:34 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
OR is it not adjusting the coaching style to fit the personnel?

Trying to jam a square peg through a round hole?

TM is stubborn...and if Williams isn't a grind line style player...why try to make him?


It's not a player issue if your coach is making you play in a system that doesn't suit your style.

Williams has been in the league, and been a successful player in this league for several years...Penner as well..Ponikarovsky...

there is give and take...you can't make players play with a style they aren't comfrotable with...and players can't expect to play the game they want 100% of the time. But none the less...Terry Murray is a very very stubborn man...we have all seen that over his tenure...

Do you think he would be one to adjust HIS system just so Justin Williams doesn't have to grind it out along the boards? I don't think so...he'll say tough....or if he doesn't do it...he'll bench em, like he has in the past. Like he has done with Penner, and Parse, and Poni, and Frolov and Loktionov and all other players who don't want to play his dump and grind style.
Williams scored 20 goals last year playing the same damn system, are you forgetting that point?

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12-07-2011, 04:36 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Seventyx7 View Post
From a cup contending team??

I expect guys like Dan Paille, Shawn Thornton, Dan Cleary, Tyler Kennedy, Wayne Simmonds, Troy Brouwer, Dave Bolland, Darren Helm etc.

Players who bring something to the table as opposed to just not being terrible. Speed, physicality, intimidation, PK skills, the ability to chip in goals.

Moreau and Hunter would not play the minutes they do on our team on Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh. Not even close.
Out of the players you mentioned, I would take all of them over Stoll, and I would take guys like Clearly, Brouwer, Bolland, and Helm before guys Hunter, Moreau.

The problem is, those guys weren't available on the market, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade an asset like a Voynov away for any of them,

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12-07-2011, 04:45 PM
  #257
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And Boyle, Purcell, the RW that Dallas picked up, can't even remember his name...
Boyle has 2 goals in 24 games this season. He's doing what I said he would do, revert back to a plugging, slow 4th liner. He got hot for 20 games last year and everyone thinks he was a huge loss. We got a 3rd for a guy who, outside of a hot 20 games, will average 5 goals a season and likely be out of the NHL in five years. No loss.

And I assume the Dallas guy is Brendan Segal? The same guy who played 46 games in Dallas and is now in the minors? Or is there someone else? If not, then once again, no big loss.

This team has screwed up on Purcell and Moulson, but I'm not upset. Every team has their own Moulson and Purcell to deal with, many have a lot more than that. Even Pittsburgh can count Moulson, since they didn't even sign him. At least we got that far.

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It has worked well now, the problem is consistency, not the system itself.
By what standard are you saying it has worked well? And consitency is an issue that is just as much expected of the coach as it is the players. TM's team isn't consistent in your eyes, that falls back on the coach. If one day I do my job and the next I just loaf around, it's my supervisors job to either kick my ass into gear or get rid of me. Who has TM ever kicked in the ass? He's benched Richardson and Lewis, that's it. They derserved it, but what about Doughty? What about Kopitar who looks like he's skating in quicksand right now? What about Penner last year? He shuffles the lines, but no one pays much of a price uner TM.

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Last night? When whomever hit Stoll all the way up at the Ducks' blue line with a beautiful tape to tape laser? That split the defenders? Sending Stoll in on all alone Hiller? With Getzlaf flailing at him from half a stride back?

No finish, but when the plays are there, they make them.
I must have missed that on a visit to the porcelian princess. Pretty sad you can skip out on a piss break and miss the one break out pass in five games the Kings make. Fair enough though.

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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Terry Murray didn't make this roster..... Dean Lombardi did. Terry Murray with his Stubborn system and Attitude (Of which no one has any concrete proof of). Didn't hire himself (Dean Hired him).

Terry Murray didn't trade for Justin Williams. (BTW Justin Williams has always been a guy that is not shy about Dot to board play, See old Carolina games).
This is such a load. You guys seem to think there is clearly defined roles in hockey mangement. "The GM gets the players, the coaches plays them." Not so.

There was a great clip on Brian Burke explaining the process he uses, one which I'd assume is fairly similar to other teams. The club gets offered a player, or is interested in someone who is available. The first step is they build a tree, looking back at all the players this player has played with. then they contact players on this tree they are familiar with and have good ties to, playing or retired, and ask about the guys character, effort, what's he like in the locker room, etc. Then they discuss it with players on the team currently that have played with this guy, and the coaching staff as well. If all is satisfied, they make the deal.

Burke said the only reason they wait until closer to the end to talk to people in the organization is to keep media awareness of the issue to a minimum.

Either way, the coach is brought into the discussion on any player acquistion that will impact the pro roster that season. You don't think TM was consulted on all these Flyers that DL has brought in over the years? If TM didn't like/want these players here, they wouldn't be here. Period. DL isn't going to stick TM with a player he hates and say "to bad, figure it out."

Do we all forget why Dan Cloutier was our starting goaltender at one point? Coaches have a say in these matters, in some cases far to big of a say.

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12-07-2011, 04:49 PM
  #258
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Boyle has 2 goals in 24 games this season. He's doing what I said he would do, revert back to a plugging, slow 4th liner. He got hot for 20 games last year and everyone thinks he was a huge loss. We got a 3rd for a guy who, outside of a hot 20 games, will average 5 goals a season and likely be out of the NHL in five years. No loss.

And I assume the Dallas guy is Brendan Segal? The same guy who played 46 games in Dallas and is now in the minors? Or is there someone else? If not, then once again, no big loss.

This team has screwed up on Purcell and Moulson, but I'm not upset. Every team has their own Moulson and Purcell to deal with, many have a lot more than that. Even Pittsburgh can count Moulson, since they didn't even sign him. At least we got that far.



By what standard are you saying it has worked well? And consitency is an issue that is just as much expected of the coach as it is the players. TM's team isn't consistent in your eyes, that falls back on the coach. If one day I do my job and the next I just loaf around, it's my supervisors job to either kick my ass into gear or get rid of me. Who has TM ever kicked in the ass? He's benched Richardson and Lewis, that's it. They derserved it, but what about Doughty? What about Kopitar who looks like he's skating in quicksand right now? What about Penner last year? He shuffles the lines, but no one pays much of a price uner TM.



I must have missed that on a visit to the porcelian princess. Pretty sad you can skip out on a piss break and miss the one break out pass in five games the Kings make. Fair enough though.



This is such a load. You guys seem to think there is clearly defined roles in hockey mangement. "The GM gets the players, the coaches plays them." Not so.

There was a great clip on Brian Burke explaining the process he uses, one which I'd assume is fairly similar to other teams. The club gets offered a player, or is interested in someone who is available. The first step is they build a tree, looking back at all the players this player has played with. then they contact players on this tree they are familiar with and have good ties to, playing or retired, and ask about the guys character, effort, what's he like in the locker room, etc. Then they discuss it with players on the team currently that have played with this guy, and the coaching staff as well. If all is satisfied, they make the deal.

Burke said the only reason they wait until closer to the end to talk to people in the organization is to keep media awareness of the issue to a minimum.

Either way, the coach is brought into the discussion on any player acquistion that will impact the pro roster that season. You don't think TM was consulted on all these Flyers that DL has brought in over the years? If TM didn't like/want these players here, they wouldn't be here. Period. DL isn't going to stick TM with a player he hates and say "to bad, figure it out."

Do we all forget why Dan Cloutier was our starting goaltender at one point? Coaches have a say in these matters, in some cases far to big of a say.
You just proved my point.

I am pointing out the lame argument that Terry is making guys do things they don't want too.

Does anyone actually think Dean, and Terry got together and put guys on the roster that won't play/ can't play Terry Murray and Dean Lombardi hockey ?


Seriously ?

Cause that's what everyone is *****ing about. Terry Making these Non Lombardi Hockey players (of which Lombardi brought in). Doing things they don't want to do or can't do?

That's absurd. These are exactly the type of guys (They both want). Now getting them to perform is another matter. I should have put the Sarcasm marker in there.


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12-07-2011, 04:54 PM
  #259
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Boyle has 2 goals in 24 games this season. He's doing what I said he would do, revert back to a plugging, slow 4th liner. He got hot for 20 games last year and everyone thinks he was a huge loss. We got a 3rd for a guy who, outside of a hot 20 games, will average 5 goals a season and likely be out of the NHL in five years. No loss.
The main reason for Boyle's numbers this year is because of the acquisition of Brad Richards. Boyle for the most part had been playing 4th line center this year and some 3rd. Boyle is also a part of pk and a plus 5. So, for a 3rd/4th liner, his numbers are acceptable.

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12-07-2011, 04:57 PM
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Out of the players you mentioned, I would take all of them over Stoll, and I would take guys like Clearly, Brouwer, Bolland, and Helm before guys Hunter, Moreau.

The problem is, those guys weren't available on the market, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade an asset like a Voynov away for any of them,
Fine. My problem with Terry using Hunter and Moreau is that I believe Lewis and Richardson do bring things to the table. Maybe they aren't going to score 20 goals but I believe they can provide more offense if given the chance, while still contributing in the other areas also. Clearly they aren't on the Brouwer/Bolland level, but I believe they can help the team win a whole lot more than Hunter and Moreau.

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12-07-2011, 04:59 PM
  #261
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Out of the players you mentioned, I would take all of them over Stoll, and I would take guys like Clearly, Brouwer, Bolland, and Helm before guys Hunter, Moreau.

The problem is, those guys weren't available on the market, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade an asset like a Voynov away for any of them,
I would trade Slava for Dave Bolland in a heart beat.

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12-07-2011, 05:07 PM
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I would trade Slava for Dave Bolland in a heart beat.
AM not VV.

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12-07-2011, 06:34 PM
  #263
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Never has so little been accomplished by so many with so much.
La lakers with Gary payton and Karl Malone, that was about as bad as it gets.

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12-07-2011, 07:10 PM
  #264
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Fine. My problem with Terry using Hunter and Moreau is that I believe Lewis and Richardson do bring things to the table. Maybe they aren't going to score 20 goals but I believe they can provide more offense if given the chance, while still contributing in the other areas also. Clearly they aren't on the Brouwer/Bolland level, but I believe they can help the team win a whole lot more than Hunter and Moreau.
They bring other things to the table, speed, youth, energy.

Moreau and Hunter bring, experience and leadership,

Either way you go, you are going to give up something, TM has decided, for a while, that experience and leadership is needed more.

He already has Clifford, Lotkionov and Westgarth in the lineup regularly.

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12-07-2011, 08:59 PM
  #265
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They are 13-14 at the moment.

Why give TM till January when they are below .500 now?
I would drop him right now but I was attempting to be a little more realistic in terms of when it could happen.

I still feel that a playoff spot and momentum can be attained with a new coach come January. If this team loses 4 in a row then he needs to go during the postgame press conference ala Carlyle. I think that is the magic number. If they lose three in a row but in just a god-awful way, then that would probably do it as well.

If this team's best players can't all be healthy at one time and they still hover around .500, then I don't think TM will be let go. Lombardi will need to feel that the season needs a savior before he fires his buddy.

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12-07-2011, 09:03 PM
  #266
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I would drop him right now but I was attempting to be a little more realistic in terms of when it could happen.

I still feel that a playoff spot and momentum can be attained with a new coach come January. If this team loses 4 in a row then he needs to go during the postgame press conference ala Carlyle. I think that is the magic number. If they lose three in a row but in just a god-awful way, then that would probably do it as well.

If this team's best players can't all be healthy at one time and they still hover around .500, then I don't think TM will be let go. Lombardi will need to feel that the season needs a savior before he fires his buddy.
But the issue is beyond simply winning this or that game, right? The whole problem has been year-to-year growth and development, where the team clearly benefitted from Murray at first but has basically stagnated since the playoff loss to Vancouver. With that kind of years-long track record of stagnation if not outright regression, Murray needs to go NOW. Why wait for him to lose or win a few more games?

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12-07-2011, 09:05 PM
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But the issue is beyond simply winning this or that game, right? The whole problem has been year-to-year growth and development, where the team clearly benefitted from Murray at first but has basically stagnated since the playoff loss to Vancouver. With that kind of years-long track record of stagnation if not outright regression, Murray needs to go NOW. Why wait for him to lose or win a few more games?
I don't like that Lombardi hasn't addressed this obvious regression at all.

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12-07-2011, 09:09 PM
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But the issue is beyond simply winning this or that game, right? The whole problem has been year-to-year growth and development, where the team clearly benefitted from Murray at first but has basically stagnated since the playoff loss to Vancouver. With that kind of years-long track record of stagnation if not outright regression, Murray needs to go NOW. Why wait for him to lose or win a few more games?
I would do it now...I would of done it in October! It's not going to happen right now though. If this team turns it around somehow next month then he certainly isn't going anywhere.

If they don't start scoring, they will keep losing and DL will let him go. DL isn't going to sit there and take total blame for his players not being able to score. If they start winning and make the playoffs again, then nothing will happen during the season but the "growth and development" will need to be looked at in the off-season. Outside of a playoff series win, I feel this is Murray's last season.

Hell, DL didn't even fire Crawford during the season, although Crawford was doing a good job of getting us to last place. Not a good enough job to get Stamkos though

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12-07-2011, 09:17 PM
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They bring other things to the table, speed, youth, energy.

Moreau and Hunter bring, experience and leadership,

Either way you go, you are going to give up something, TM has decided, for a while, that experience and leadership is needed more.

He already has Clifford, Lotkionov and Westgarth in the lineup regularly.
Experience and leadership is what they bring, rather than speed and energy? What a bunch of crap. They can bring leadership from the pressbox. This isn't a team devoid of veterans; Williams, Stoll, Greene, Mitchell, Scuderi, Gagne, Richards have all been there. If you think Lewis and Richardson's effectiveness should be benched because of Moreau and Hunter's "experience" with no effectiveness in December, you're as delusional as TM is on this topic.

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12-07-2011, 09:20 PM
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Experience and leadership is what they bring, rather than speed and energy? What a bunch of crap. They can bring leadership from the pressbox. This isn't a team devoid of veterans; Williams, Stoll, Greene, Mitchell, Scuderi, Gagne, Richards have all been there. If you think Lewis and Richardson's effectiveness should be benched because of Moreau and Hunter's "experience" with no effectiveness in December, you're as delusional as TM is on this topic.
I don't think you know what experience brings to the table.

Lewis and Richardson have been as effective as I have for the Kings this year, what is it, 3 points between the two of them?

And yea, I would much rather have experience out there with Lotkionov, Clifford, and Williams, than to add 2 more inxperienced guys who aren't producing to the bottom six. With the experience, guys like Moreau and Hunter, know when to push, when to backoff, where to go because they have been through it all before, Lewis and Clark haven't, that's something they still have to learn at this level.

Lewis should be getting into some more games, but as soon as you put him and pull Lotkionov out, you guys will ***** about that as well..

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12-07-2011, 09:35 PM
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I don't think you know what experience brings to the table.

Lewis and Richardson have been as effective as I have for the Kings this year, what is it, 3 points between the two of them?

And yea, I would much rather have experience out there with Lotkionov, Clifford, and Williams, than to add 2 more inxperienced guys who aren't producing to the bottom six. With the experience, guys like Moreau and Hunter, know when to push, when to backoff, where to go because they have been through it all before, Lewis and Clark haven't, that's something they still have to learn at this level.

Lewis should be getting into some more games, but as soon as you put him and pull Lotkionov out, you guys will ***** about that as well..
You're way off on this argument. If you would have said that TM prefers bigger players, that I can understand, but this experience thing...not so much. Like the other poster said, we have plenty of experience. What we're seriously lacking is some speed.

I don't know why TM doesn't hesitate to put a guy like Hunter on the top line, but he won't give someone like Lewis the same opportunity.

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12-07-2011, 09:48 PM
  #272
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My old baseball coach once told me "Never confuse results for effort, or effort for results." This organization better figure that out soon.

To the GM, if "We anticipated it" (referring to the need to open up the second forward entering the zone to loosen up the trap), why didn't you do anything this offseason to add speed to the wings. Even if the only attribute that player has is speed, his speed can be used solely in support of the forecheck and open things up for the more skilled forwards.

To the HC, you better figure out a winning combination with the players you have been given, even if it was not the "original plan", soon or you re going to lose this team/season/fans.

To the players, time to put up or shut up. Find the back of the net. I don't care what you have to do to do it but you are paid professionals, paid to produce results, and you are not.

I have no doubt whatsoever that everyone from top to bottom is putting in the effort, but let's not confuse effort for results.

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12-07-2011, 09:57 PM
  #273
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You're way off on this argument. If you would have said that TM prefers bigger players, that I can understand, but this experience thing...not so much. Like the other poster said, we have plenty of experience. What we're seriously lacking is some speed.

I don't know why TM doesn't hesitate to put a guy like Hunter on the top line, but he won't give someone like Lewis the same opportunity.
Again, you are not understanding what experience brings.

Experience isn't an old vet and an ice bucket telling stories in the locker room ffs.

Experience is telling a player that he better go balls to the wall right now or he is going to get beat, or if that he can't go balls to the walls, that he better be in the right position because he can READ WHERE THE PLAY IS GOING, because of his EXPERIENCE and it's happened before.

Lewis and Richardson do not have the experience to draw from, they don't have the experience to know when to back off, when to push it, etc.

If they were producing, guaranteed they would be in the lineup, but out of the 4, right now, the better players are simply Moreau and Hunter.

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12-07-2011, 10:22 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Again, you are not understanding what experience brings.

Experience isn't an old vet and an ice bucket telling stories in the locker room ffs.

Experience is telling a player that he better go balls to the wall right now or he is going to get beat, or if that he can't go balls to the walls, that he better be in the right position because he can READ WHERE THE PLAY IS GOING, because of his EXPERIENCE and it's happened before.

Lewis and Richardson do not have the experience to draw from, they don't have the experience to know when to back off, when to push it, etc.

If they were producing, guaranteed they would be in the lineup, but out of the 4, right now, the better players are simply Moreau and Hunter.
Richardson has over 300 gp, it's not like he's green. and if experience is about reads, why can't Hunter or Moreau make a read to save their lives? Moreau is constantly out of position or behind on the play. Hunter looks lost most of the time, and slow. Does experience tell you when to take an obvious 2-handed slash late in a game when you are leading? He did this time and time again in Edmonton - the stupid late penalty. Experience apparently doesn't help with that. Does experience tell you when to miss an empty net?

I don't think they are better players at all, in fact right now I would say they all are playing equally poorly. I certainly would rather have Richardson and Lewis in the lineup against faster teams, because experienced or not, Moreau and Hunter are like pylons. They hit more, so if that's the reason they are in the lineup, so be it. But it's not because they are better players.

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12-07-2011, 10:25 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Lewis and Richardson do not have the experience to draw from, they don't have the experience to know when to back off, when to push it, etc.

If they were producing, guaranteed they would be in the lineup, but out of the 4, right now, the better players are simply Moreau and Hunter.
Lewis and Richardson couldn't be producing that much less than Moreau and Hunter.

For that matter, you and I aren't producing that much less than Moreau and Hunter.

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