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The Fourth Period: Canadiens considering shakeup?

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Old
12-07-2011, 07:32 PM
  #101
sampollock
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what needs to happen it something big, this team is terrible, and slack.

JM 1st, and then a trade to follow,

if this team is missing playoffs, dump to gain high picks

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12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Put together Cammalleri's 2009-10 season with his playoffs and you'll find he scored basically the same amount of goals in the same amount of games in Montreal as he did in Calgary. Gionta has had his best goal scoring campaigns in years when he went form New Jersey to Montreal and Plekanec has been a better scorer under Martin then he was with Carboneau.

Of the Canadiens' top nine only Desharnais is a pure offensive player, all the others have some two way ability to a greater (Plekanec, Gionta, Eller) or lesser extent (Cammalleri, Kostitsyn).

This team isn't built for run and gun. Its best talents (Plekanec, Subban, Pacioretty and healthy Markov) are two-way players and its depth is balanced between offense and defense. I have know idea why that meme persists.
Probably, because on paper, this team should be a heck of lot better than 25th in goals scored year in and year out. The offense is putrid again. The 5 on 5 is slowly working it's way back to garbage, if the PP doesn't get going soon, it's going to be a quick sink to the bottom.

Enough with the excuses already, this team should be better than that. JM is part of the reason the offense is completely inept, that and the roster isn't exactly stellar, but no doubt they should be scoring more goals.

Even the underlying metrics are starting to sway against the habs. They were playing good, now they're slowly falling apart. The team has had so many lifeless games recently, somethings gotta give. I'm all for waiting it out until seasons end if it means getting the right tandem, but if they can go through the vetting process now, I'm all for it.

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12-07-2011, 08:12 PM
  #103
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In the midst of all these non credible rumors, I feel I have a valid question. How many of the forwards currently on our roster would be first line material on any of the top 5 teams in the NHL?

My answer is Plekanec.

I welcome all your answers, it is the main reason we are where we are from year to year, a 8th-10th place team that fights for a playoff spot that lacks the go to player/great first line that has a top 20 scorer.

We have not had it since Guy Lafleur and Steve Shutt, thats 30 plus years people. The best coaching staff in the world can only take an average team so far. So we can fire Martin and bring in the best guy available, it will not compensate for the product on the ice.

We either need the big name free agent that does not seem to want to be here or TANK it for a couple of years and build through the draft like the Pittsburghs,Washingtons and Tampas of the NHL.

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12-07-2011, 08:14 PM
  #104
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Don't think the Fourth Period is at all credible. They're better at talking about the clothes worn by hockey players rather than anything related to the game of hockey.

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12-07-2011, 08:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
In the midst of all these non credible rumors, I feel I have a valid question. How many of the forwards currently on our roster would be first line material on any of the top 5 teams in the NHL?
Max Pacioretty?

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12-07-2011, 08:16 PM
  #106
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A big shake up would be a trade at this point. I doubt coach or management will get fired any time soon.

Trade cammalleri and weber.

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12-07-2011, 08:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
In the midst of all these non credible rumors, I feel I have a valid question. How many of the forwards currently on our roster would be first line material on any of the top 5 teams in the NHL?

My answer is Plekanec.

I welcome all your answers, it is the main reason we are where we are from year to year, a 8th-10th place team that fights for a playoff spot that lacks the go to player/great first line that has a top 20 scorer.

We have not had it since Guy Lafleur and Steve Shutt, thats 30 plus years people. The best coaching staff in the world can only take an average team so far. So we can fire Martin and bring in the best guy available, it will not compensate for the product on the ice.

We either need the big name free agent that does not seem to want to be here or TANK it for a couple of years and build through the draft like the Pittsburghs,Washingtons and Tampas of the NHL.
We've won two Cups since Lafleur and Shutt departed. Don't understand your point that we should fire Martin in light of this lack of a go to guy.

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12-07-2011, 08:19 PM
  #108
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Probably, because on paper, this team should be a heck of lot better than 25th in goals scored year in and year out. The offense is putrid again. The 5 on 5 is slowly working it's way back to garbage, if the PP doesn't get going soon, it's going to be a quick sink to the bottom.

Enough with the excuses already, this team should be better than that. JM is part of the reason the offense is completely inept, that and the roster isn't exactly stellar, but no doubt they should be scoring more goals.

Even the underlying metrics are starting to sway against the habs. They were playing good, now they're slowly falling apart. The team has had so many lifeless games recently, somethings gotta give. I'm all for waiting it out until seasons end if it means getting the right tandem, but if they can go through the vetting process now, I'm all for it.
This is the issue right here. Somewhere in November Montreal went from a good team not getting the bounces and losing games they carried the play to a team that is just plain getting beat. How much this is injuries and injury-related fatigue is hard to say but it is clear that they need to turn things around to remain relevant. For sure the delay on Markov is hurting two critical areas, the power play and the 2nd defensive pairing which are key weaknesses. But they have the horses to be a good team.

I'm less sympathetic to the coaching argument because so many people espousing it are couching it in terms like "confidence" and "has lost the room" which in my opinion are just examples of magically thinking in action. Not that confidence and team spirit don't exist but no one outside of the situation has any real information on the matter and in the absence of real evidence makes them matter of purely subjective opinion, which I hold no stock in. And don't get me started on the self proclaimed "body-language" experts because that just makes me laugh. It should be noted how swapping in Kirk Muller doesn't seem to have done Carolina much good for example.

So I don't know if a management change is the answer. I am suspicious of anyone that has strong beliefs in either direction on the matter because I question whether they can really say they have enough information to make an informed opinion on the matter and I note that people calling for the management's head in Montreal have long disliked the current regime for ideological reasons I consider specious.

It is clear that they need to shift direction though because things aren't working right now. So a coaching/management change shouldn't be off the table but a knee-jerk decision is probably the worst thing they could do.

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Old
12-07-2011, 08:21 PM
  #109
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one can only hope there is a huge change in management. The last 15 years of small shifty inconsistent forwards combined with pillows for defense trying to play defensive hockey is getting tiresome.

Montreal is in need of someone who is willing to take risks and change what this team has been for too long.

I dont believe Martin is the right coach..

Gauthier hasnt done anything majorly good or bad but its obvious him and Gainey still jointly run this team and if it means cutting ties with Gauthier to completely rid yourself of Gainey's influence, im all for it.

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Old
12-07-2011, 08:23 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
Max Pacioretty?
Totally. And people should actually take a look at who plays on the top lines of top NHL teams. The answer may surprise you.

Subban and Markov (even with considerable drop-off from his previous heights) are top-pairing defensemen practically anywhere though and Price is as good a start as pretty much everyone has. Plus Boston won a cup with no star forward so I think the focus on just star forwards is a bit blinkered.

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12-07-2011, 08:25 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
We've won two Cups since Lafleur and Shutt departed. Don't understand your point that we should fire Martin in light of this lack of a go to guy.
Sorry if I lead you astray, I meant that firing Martin would not compensate for the lack of top scoring forwards.

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12-07-2011, 08:29 PM
  #112
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I would go after the big centers that are available in this years draft and load up on snipers with size and good skating.If there aren't any centers at our pick(BPA) depending on who's left on defence Ceci and Rinehart are two defencemen I'd choose.Owen Sound has Artur Gavrus (Center),Grigorenko my choice and probably going #1,there has to be at least a couple of centers for the first three picks.Girgensons,Galchenyuk and that's just the Russians.But like I say get someone real good or get one of the great defencemen.Lots of right defence in the high choices,if not there's always Center Cristoval "Boo"Nieves and Phil DiGiuseppi from Michigan's Wolverines.This is the shake up the Habs need get a grip on as many high draft picks as possible and draft the BPA's at center,defence & sniper that skate well.Then prepare them properly don't rush them and maybe get lucky enough for a lottery pick next season or the year after.By that time the Habs would have enough talent in their system to be a team like those from the 50's,60's,and 70's.The management team we have is great at drafting, developing and the system in place is already geared for playoff style hockey.The players drafted with higher picks will thrive on our transitional type of game,the defence will be sublime and Price will be Priceless.

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12-07-2011, 08:47 PM
  #113
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If it was going to happen it would have already. Losing to Columbus is downright pathetic.

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12-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #114
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Anyone who wants a guy who bailed out ASAP after building this monstrousity to be back in charge is living in a fantasy land. The man should have nothing to do with this team.

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12-07-2011, 08:50 PM
  #115
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If it was going to happen it would have already. Losing to Columbus is downright pathetic.
Why?

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12-07-2011, 08:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
This is the issue right here. Somewhere in November Montreal went from a good team not getting the bounces and losing games they carried the play to a team that is just plain getting beat. How much this is injuries and injury-related fatigue is hard to say but it is clear that they need to turn things around to remain relevant. For sure the delay on Markov is hurting two critical areas, the power play and the 2nd defensive pairing which are key weaknesses. But they have the horses to be a good team.

I'm less sympathetic to the coaching argument because so many people espousing it are couching it in terms like "confidence" and "has lost the room" which in my opinion are just examples of magically thinking in action. Not that confidence and team spirit don't exist but no one outside of the situation has any real information on the matter and in the absence of real evidence makes them matter of purely subjective opinion, which I hold no stock in. And don't get me started on the self proclaimed "body-language" experts because that just makes me laugh. It should be noted how swapping in Kirk Muller doesn't seem to have done Carolina much good for example.

So I don't know if a management change is the answer. I am suspicious of anyone that has strong beliefs in either direction on the matter because I question whether they can really say they have enough information to make an informed opinion on the matter and I note that people calling for the management's head in Montreal have long disliked the current regime for ideological reasons I consider specious.

It is clear that they need to shift direction though because things aren't working right now. So a coaching/management change shouldn't be off the table but a knee-jerk decision is probably the worst thing they could do.
We agree for the most part, but the problems could be the players are suddenly getting outplayed because they lost confidence in the system. I wouldn't be so quick to rule it out.

They have lacked emotion recently, why, is anybodies guess.

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12-07-2011, 08:54 PM
  #117
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Why?
because the fans want to! and media too.

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12-07-2011, 08:56 PM
  #118
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Not going to happen. If there's a change coming, it will be PG trading our 1st pick to get immediate help.

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12-07-2011, 08:59 PM
  #119
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Not going to happen. If there's a change coming, it will be PG trading our 1st pick to get immediate help.
I don't see Gauthier trading our 1st, period.

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12-07-2011, 09:04 PM
  #120
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I don't see Gauthier trading our 1st, period.
Obviously not! That's the last thing we need to do right now, I'd actually like to see if we can get get another late 1st rounder for someone like Cammy. Let's face it Gals/Guys not our year.

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12-07-2011, 09:07 PM
  #121
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A big shake up would be a trade at this point. I doubt coach or management will get fired any time soon.

Trade cammalleri and weber.
I don't want the current management making any trades.

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12-07-2011, 09:15 PM
  #122
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fire JM, he's lost the room. Hire Carlyle. Trade Camm for a high pick and a top end prospect

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12-07-2011, 09:30 PM
  #123
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We agree for the most part, but the problems could be the players are suddenly getting outplayed because they lost confidence in the system. I wouldn't be so quick to rule it out.

They have lacked emotion recently, why, is anybodies guess.
Personally, I believe most are fatigued.

It starts with our back end.
The amount of hockey PK has played over the past year is just insane. Already, he has 60minutes more of hockey played than our 2nd most, Gorges. He has more than 100min than our 3rd most used D in Diaz.
Then, Weber, Diaz and Emelin are not used to this type of competition. Emelin is rounding out very nicely. Diaz has done a decent job, and Weber started well but has regressed tremendously, but none of them can really be trusted to play on a top pairing. Although they can make some decent simple plays, they have little creativity.
Gill is absolutely useless other than on the PK.

We have a defense that relies on PK for everything. Last year, he had help from Hamrlik and Wiz. They could be paired against top opposition, they could take some time off PK. That's why their presence was so key to us as well. Not only did it give us more options, but because of that, it made others, like PK, better. This is something management, and plenty of fans here, simply didn't understand, and probably still don't.


Up front, I believe some could do more, but I also think they are suffering from the lack of creativity from the back end.

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Old
12-07-2011, 09:36 PM
  #124
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If it was going to happen it would have already. Losing to Columbus is downright pathetic.
My defense of Martin stopped with the loss to the Islanders.

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12-07-2011, 09:37 PM
  #125
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Why?
We're pretty much at the point now where this is the longest we can wait before the season is over and changing personnel won't make a difference.

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