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Tomas Kaberle for Jaroslav Spacek - Part II

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12-09-2011, 05:47 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jerky View Post
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m) / Lars Eller ($1.850m) / Louis Leblanc ($1.170m)
Travis Moen ($1.500m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Ryan White ($0.625m)
/ Petteri Nokelainen ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($2.500m)
Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m) / Josh Gorges ($3.000m)
Alexei Emelin ($1.500m) / Raphael Diaz ($0.900m)
Yannick Weber ($0.850m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($5.000m) / Peter Budaj ($1.150m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,427,143; BONUSES: $300,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$2,127,143



Here are my conservative estimates next year, it will probably be more, but as you can see, we are still $2 million in the hole.

This begs the question......what's our next move?
gomez aint coming back next year, this trade just made it a fact. no way we pay 7.4 mill for a 4th line centerman. buyout or send down to hamilton, or trade.

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12-09-2011, 05:47 PM
  #102
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Anyway he will get all the 1st PP time to prove himself that's for sure.

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12-09-2011, 05:47 PM
  #103
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For the people talking about the cap looking for next season assuming fair value to Price, Subban, Emelin, Eller and Gorges.

Montreal will have to choose between 2 of: Resigning Kostitsyn, keeping Kaberle, keeping Gomez and making a big signing.

Dump one of Gomez or Kaberle during the offseason they are fine. Dump both and they`re in great position.

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12-09-2011, 05:48 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because instead of looking to spend Spacek's freed up money next year on real solutions for the future, we have even less money/cap available and only have Kaberle to show for it... for two more years on top of this one, to boot. I don't think anyone is pitchfork and torch disappointed, but I'm surprised that so many people are not just meh about this, but actually happy/encouraged.
Many do not care about what happens until 2014. Don't act as if Kaberle's 4.25M$ could have landed us a useful UFA that would turn this franchise around. I am ok with Kaberle because his contract ends with the rest of our failures. Gomez, Gionta, Kaberle and Cammalleri all expire at the same time. There is no hope to move them, and there is no hope to win with them.

If Kaberle sucks, he will help the tanking. If Kaberle pulls a Campbell, he will help the team. The reality is that we got a (formerly) competent player for nothing. With or without Kaberle, this team is going nowhere, and the fix involves more than buying a 4.25M$ UFA this summer.

Keep in mind that the reaction to Cole's signature was pretty much the same. Let's wait and see.

But here is the WORST case scenario: Kaberle sucks, and he doesn't help the team. Yeah, how tragic.

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12-09-2011, 05:50 PM
  #105
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Just breathe ok let the trade play out. Were 2nd in penalty kill, 7th at even strength, and whats that you say? 28th on the powerplay Damn you Gauthier for taking a risk and trying to improve the horrible powerplay!!!

If we can drag our powerplay atleast to average and have it sit around 15th in the league guess what? We're going to win a lot more than we lose. We rely on goaltending and special teams and the bottom line is if the Kabs trade pays off we'll stop underachieving and racking up the points cause opposite to what some of you think we do have pieces on our team to do damage in the playoffs.

But I guess I'm in the minority as a "looking at the glass half full" Habs fan. I have a lot more respect for the guys on this board supporting the team and being positive and none at all for the guys taking the easy way out and cursing them out for everything they do. I understand you invest your time and money into this team but cmon.

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12-09-2011, 05:51 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Many do not care about what happens until 2014. Don't act as if Kaberle's 4.25M$ could have landed us a useful UFA that would turn this franchise around. I am ok with Kaberle because his contract ends with the rest of our failures. Gomez, Gionta, Kaberle and Cammalleri all expire at the same time. There is no hope to move them, and there is no hope to win with them.

If Kaberle sucks, he will help the tanking. If Kaberle pulls a Campbell, he will help the team. The reality is that we got a (formerly) competent player for nothing. With or without Kaberle, this team is going nowhere, and the fix involves more than buying a 4.25M$ UFA this summer.

Keep in mind that the reaction to Cole's signature was pretty much the same. Let's wait and see.

But here is the WORST case scenario: Kaberle sucks, and he doesn't help the team. Yeah, how tragic.
This isn't the NY Islanders or the Pittsburgh Penguins. It's the Montreal ****in Canadiens. We aren't tanking !!!!

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12-09-2011, 05:52 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For the people talking about the cap looking for next season assuming fair value to Price, Subban, Emelin, Eller and Gorges.

Montreal will have to choose between 2 of: Resigning Kostitsyn, keeping Kaberle, keeping Gomez and making a big signing.

Dump one of Gomez or Kaberle during the offseason they are fine. Dump both and they`re in great position.
I think they should keep all the cap space for 2014, Miami style. (Argument would be better if they didn't choke).

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12-09-2011, 05:52 PM
  #108
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Thank god the non-haters have an opinion again in this mess of a thread.

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12-09-2011, 05:52 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Spacek coming back would not improve our Powerplay. Kaberle MIGHT be able to do that but we KNOW Spacek won't. So we either improved our powerplay or didn't change anything. Either Kaberle helps our powerplay work or he can sit and we go back to the way it was before we got him while Spacek was out. How is this a bad thing?

Edit: LOL @ Price with 5 million cap hit as RFA. Might as well Luongo him and avoid the UFA price.
I'm not at all suggesting Spacek would improve the PP. Campoli and Spacek are both due back. I'm asking why didn't the Habs wait to see what effect Campoli would have on the PP. Suppose it would improve. Then the PP improves as needed and Spacek coming back helps defensively. Bringing Kaberle MAYBE helps the powerplay, IMO some defense is sacrificed and the Habs are strapped with another contract perhaps worse than the one that was about to expire.

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12-09-2011, 05:55 PM
  #110
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However, Gauthier and Martin both pointed to how well Kaberle played in helping the Bruins win the Stanley Cup, even though the defenseman's minutes were severely cut by Bruins coach Claude Julien as the playoffs moved along last spring. In fact, Kaberle did not top 20 minutes in ice time once after Game 5 of the first round against the Canadiens -- a series that the Bruins won without scoring a single power-play goal.

"He played very well for Boston; they won the Stanley Cup," Gauthier said. "And if you look at his statistics, it's actually encouraging that when he joined a good club he performed in his role. He was able to adapt relatively quickly."


I looked at the stats Gauthier was referring to. Four hits in 25 games... FOUR! He was last among defensemen in blocked shots and second in giveaways. Despite leading the team on PP time on ice by a wide margin he had 5 PP points, again in 25 games. That works out to about 15 points over an 82 game schedule.

Even with his extensive PP time, Kaberle was 5th on the team on total time on ice, which tells me that he could barely be trusted at 5 on 5 play.

Does Gauthier think we won't double check his story?
Well, surely he does think you'll double check the story, but I don't think he expected you to do such a terrible job of it.

Last season he was 13th in scoring for NHL dmen with 47 points, including 38 in 58 with Toronto. Following that he was 3rd in scoring for dmen in the playoffs with 11 points in 25 games.

So he's had a couple ****** stints of about 20 games or so. I guess that means that this 33 year old dman is permanently done.

Oh, and did we mention: HE DOESN'T HIT!! Won't someone think of the children.

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12-09-2011, 05:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
For the same reason that Cole blew goats in Edmonton, but is the shazbot here and Carolina?
Cole blew goats in Edmonton? Sorry, the Oilers blew goats in Edmonton, and he just happened to be there trying to adjust to playing on a new team that was both young and bad. Much different from being on the obvious decline, joining the eventual Stanley Cup winners, and yet continuing to look worse in the process.

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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Expecting the same results from two completely different situations must be almost as crazy as expecting different results from doing the same thing over and over again.
Don't know why. The vast majority of players over 30 follow a pretty predictable curve; especially defensemen not named Lidstrom. We're talking about a guy who was often compared to Markov up until a year or two ago, who then lost favour on the team where he enjoyed success, then lost favour with the Bruins, and was given up for an injured player for the sake of cap space, most likely. That's an emerging pattern, not something indicative of absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
The biggest problem with the Boston PP is it gave Kaberle no trigger men. Remember that game in the playoffs when Seguin was put on the off wing and all of a sudden Boston had a PP? There's a reason for that: he's the only guy on that unit who had any sort of a one timer.
You know, it's interesting. I remember people having trouble paying MAB his money because all he could do on the PP was shoot. Apparently it's much better to pay $4.25M for a guy who can only pass on the PP, and apparently doesn't even do that very well these days. As for that game you're talking about, that had very little to do with Kaberle, although he did pick up some points. That was Ryder, Horton, and Seguin going beast mode on Tampa Bay, with Kaberle happening to have touched the puck some time earlier.

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12-09-2011, 05:56 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I'm not at all suggesting Spacek would improve the PP. Campoli and Spacek are both due back. I'm asking why didn't the Habs wait to see what effect Campoli would have on the PP. Suppose it would improve. Then the PP improves as needed and Spacek coming back helps defensively. Bringing Kaberle MAYBE helps the powerplay, IMO some defense is sacrificed and the Habs are strapped with another contract perhaps worse than the one that was about to expire.
While I am not against the trade, knowing today the outcome I'd have seen us deal Spacek and re-sign Wisniewski.

He was at the very least a proven commodity within the functions of our system/team. That being said who knows if there was a market for Spacek outside of this salary dump situation.

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12-09-2011, 05:56 PM
  #113
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This isn't the NY Islanders or the Pittsburgh Penguins. It's the Montreal ****in Canadiens. We aren't tanking !!!!
It's not like it is a decision that the team has to make. Tanking is simply a result of having an awful roster.

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12-09-2011, 05:58 PM
  #114
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Pros:
- This 100% guarantees Gomez is gone at the very latest this summer. Hopefully sooner.
- Kaberle is only 33. Not old enough to the point where it isn't too late to turn it around.

Cons:
- Kaberle is TERRIBLE.
- Kaberle has a TERRIBLE contract.

I dunno maybe he can be this years Wiz... I'm not particularly optimistic though .

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12-09-2011, 05:59 PM
  #115
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Love the move. Kaberle was my favorite Leaf basically the entire time he was there. Plays a similar game to Markov: cerebral, good vision, good first pass. Hopefully the trade helps him regain confidence, and I think he'll be a very good boost for the powerplay.

Oh wait, this is Hfboards? Nevermind that then, he's old, washed up, sucks, fire Gauthier and Martin, Markov will never skate again, etc.

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12-09-2011, 06:00 PM
  #116
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Many do not care about what happens until 2014. Don't act as if Kaberle's 4.25M$ could have landed us a useful UFA that would turn this franchise around.
Yeah, I'm sure between now and 2014 there won't be way better and more important ways that $4.25M could be spent. I mean, it's not like Pacioretty, Eller, A.Kost, Emelin, Gorges, Subban, and Price will all need to be signed before that contract comes off the books. Oh wait... they do. AND we have to somehow improve. Yeah, actually, that space could be really valuable as early as this off season.

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12-09-2011, 06:01 PM
  #117
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FUN FACT: Flaberle was reduced to being a third-pairing Dman with Adam McQuaid during the SCF. Such greatness.

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12-09-2011, 06:01 PM
  #118
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Leafs fan here to talk about Kaberle.

Kaberle was a good d man for us and i think he might able to help u guys out too. He gains the zone smoothly with good skating and is a great passer on the powerplay. But at the same time there are some negatives with his game. he almost NEVER shoots the puck on the pp which was a huge concern while he was here. he hasn't been too responsible defensively but usually makes up for it with his offense.

alot of pros and cons with his game, hopefully it works out for u guys. Just wanted to talk to give u guys a better idea of what ur getting with him. Should be fun to see kaberle in a habs uniform vs the leafs,best of luck to u guys

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12-09-2011, 06:03 PM
  #119
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count me in the small percentile of people who don't mind it too much. although i thought spacek looked rejuvenated this season, came prepared, i have no problems moving him. and as for kabs, boston was already pretty stacked, he contributed, but obviously wasn't a absolute missing piece or anything. they got him for reenforcements and he have his half a season's worth for someone who was joining a new team after being in one place for so long. he was by mo means bad in boston. and carolina i'm positive just wasn't his gig.

i think he will be happy here with pleks (it will be mutual, plex didn't get to have jagr, but he can at least now have a fellow countrymen). he's not even overpaid. some people's figures are stuck back in 2005 with a cap half of what it is now...4 millie or wtv he's earning is PRETTY AVERAGE for players with even a decent amount of skill.

if you'd like, you could pretend that instead, we extended spacek 2 years with a raise lol. instead, he's gone, and we got a younger guy who has always been better who makes marginally more.

i wouldn't worry in the least about this hindering next year's resignings of price georges and the gang. i doubt gomez will be gone, and even at that, this surely will not be our only move from now to next year.

do some of you actually think that you are aware that key players need to be signed, and somehow management has actually neglected that fact? get real.

there is always a fairly well established plan, mixed with a bit of 'take things as they come'. i'm confident they are aware and know what they are doing. this isn't just a move tho help us win games now, it will be followed through in the near future. even panic moves are still calculated. this is less of a gamble than we think IMO.


calm down bros.

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12-09-2011, 06:03 PM
  #120
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It's not like it is a decision that the team has to make. Tanking is simply a result of having an awful roster.
Euh ? How can an awful team NOT be a team decision ? I'm confused here.

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12-09-2011, 06:03 PM
  #121
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what would the d pairings look like with thomas kaberle now in the fold. not counting markov since he's still hurt.

gill/subban
kabs/gorges
emelin/weber?

spares:campoli/markov/diaz

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12-09-2011, 06:04 PM
  #122
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Love the move. Kaberle was my favorite Leaf basically the entire time he was there. Plays a similar game to Markov: cerebral, good vision, good first pass. Hopefully the trade helps him regain confidence, and I think he'll be a very good boost for the powerplay.
If his contract expired at the end of this year it would be a lot more palatable.

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12-09-2011, 06:05 PM
  #123
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what would the d pairings look like with thomas kaberle now in the fold. not counting markov since he's still hurt.

gill/subban
kabs/gorges
emelin/weber?

spares:campoli/markov/diaz
Drop Weber, replace him with Campoli. Do not put Gill with PK.

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12-09-2011, 06:06 PM
  #124
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The only sad part about the trade for me is that Diaz and Weber are both as good as gone.

But as for the trade, LOL at all the haters in this thread, 7 months ago we would of been jumping out of our seats at the idea of getting Kaberle in Montreal, People would of been like : 2 #1 defensmens in Montreal? Hell yeah! Half a year later, his value goes from something around a 1st + Leblanc to the hated Jaroslav freacking Spacek and people complain... AS it's been mentionned before, his stats are flawed, as Moen has more goals than Staal right now, does that make him a better player? Personally I'm drooling at the idea of having Markov-Kaberle on the pp. If he's able to return to the same Kaberle he was with the Leafs a year ago, this trade will be an absolute STEAL from Gauthier!

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12-09-2011, 06:06 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Cole blew goats in Edmonton? Sorry, the Oilers blew goats in Edmonton, and he just happened to be there trying to adjust to playing on a new team that was both young and bad. Much different from being on the obvious decline, joining the eventual Stanley Cup winners, and yet continuing to look worse in the process.
For the last time people: he had 47 points last year. 11 points in 25 playoff games, second on the team.

13th in scoring for dmen last year, and 3rd in the playoffs.

Yeah, he's quite "obviously" on the decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Don't know why. The vast majority of players over 30 follow a pretty predictable curve; especially defensemen not named Lidstrom. We're talking about a guy who was often compared to Markov up until a year or two ago, who then lost favour on the team where he enjoyed success, then lost favour with the Bruins, and was given up for an injured player for the sake of cap space, most likely. That's an emerging pattern, not something indicative of absolutely nothing.
The pattern is only emergent if you pick and choose your data. Last season he was very productive. In the playoffs he was very productive.

The emerging pattern is that he had a ****** stint of about 20+ games with boston during the regular season, and has played ****** on a ****** team thusfar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You know, it's interesting. I remember people having trouble paying MAB his money because all he could do on the PP was shoot. Apparently it's much better to pay $4.25M for a guy who can only pass on the PP, and apparently doesn't even do that very well these days. As for that game you're talking about, that had very little to do with Kaberle, although he did pick up some points. That was Ryder, Horton, and Seguin going beast mode on Tampa Bay, with Kaberle happening to have touched the puck some time earlier.
The powerplay is pretty much the only thing that must be improved on this team. Value is not static, it's rather dynamic. If all a team needs is someone to QB their PP, he can be worth quite a bit.

And no, you're wrong. Even during that game their PP was absolutely awful until Seguin was put on the off wing, and Kaberle was given a target. That shift their PP was completely changed.

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