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Can Chicago be faulted for choosing to stick with Belfour over Hasek?

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Old
12-07-2011, 08:31 PM
  #26
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
In reality the trade was Buffalo sending Ruuttu and a 4th round pick to Chicago for Hasek. The whole deal with Beauregard was just moving him around so he wouldn't be taken by Ottawa or Tampa in the expansion draft, as he was considered the best goalie likely to be available in it. Buffalo had room to protect him while Winnipeg didn't. He was traded to Philadelphia right before the season started, which was probably the plan all along.
did not know that. thanks.

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1992-Jun-15 Traded from Winnipeg Jets to Buffalo Sabres for Christian Ruuttu and future considerations
1992-Aug-07 Traded from Buffalo Sabres with future considerations to Chicago Blackhawks for Dominik Hasek
1992-Aug-10 Traded from Chicago Blackhawks to Winnipeg Jets for Christian Ruuttu
1992-Oct-01 Traded from Winnipeg Jets to Philadelphia Flyers for future considerations and round 3 pick in the 1993 draft
yeesh, all that trouble for stephane beauregard? he was only the third best goalie on a crap team.

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12-07-2011, 08:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I think it was Christian Ruutu who were the real player Chicago wanted. Ruuttu refused to play in Winnipeg so an agreement was made between the 3 clubs.

Edit: Wasnt there a draft pick involved too that turned into Eric Dazé?
Daze ended up being a pretty good player, too.

He was a power forward who averaged 31-23-54 per 82 games, and was an All-Star. He suffered a herniated disc in the 99-00 season which required multiple surgeries over the next few seasons. Although he was able to play very well during that time, including posting career highs of 38 goals, 32 assists, and 70 points in the 2001-02 season, and a similar scoring pace in an injury-shortened 2002-03 season. He played one period after the lockout and then casually retired.

I would have loved to have him on the Wings.

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12-07-2011, 08:54 PM
  #28
RuHawk
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I don't see how you could argue with Chicago's decision to stick with Eddy. It'd have been hard to get rid of someone who had proven capable for you over someone who had proven nothing.

Not to derail the thread but I can't help but think about the similarities between Chicago's situation and Vancouver's current situation with Luongo and Schneider.

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12-07-2011, 09:14 PM
  #29
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by RuHawk View Post
I don't see how you could argue with Chicago's decision to stick with Eddy. It'd have been hard to get rid of someone who had proven capable for you over someone who had proven nothing.

Not to derail the thread but I can't help but think about the similarities between Chicago's situation and Vancouver's current situation with Luongo and Schneider.
i was actually thinking that belfour in '92 might have been somewhat similar to columbus with steve mason after his rookie year. if columbus had had a potentially even better goalie coming up, would they have had the stones to trade mason? knowing what we know now, they should have gotten something for him when he was still worth a king's ransom. and if chicago had had a crystal ball, they probably could have gotten someone like adam oates for belfour if they'd traded him in '92.

but of course, no one in their right mind would trade a young calder winning goalie who was also an post-season all-star and MVP candidate (eddie finished third for the hart, mason came fourth).

schneids and lou, not a great comparison because lou is an established vet who may or may not be due for a career swoon. belfour was coming off his second NHL season and a deep playoff run, and looked destined to have a very long, distinguished career ahead of him. which of course he did.

but a comparison might be philly in the fall of '86. no one in his right mind would trade a successful young goalie just coming into his prime, but bobby clarke has never been in his right mind when it comes to goalie transactions. bob froese was coming off a second team all-star year, second to beezer for the vezina, and three games into the next season they traded him to the rangers for kjell samuelsson and a second round pick because they thought they had an even better young goalie coming up (hextall). undoubtedly the right move, maybe the only time bobby clarke ever made the right move with a goalie.

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12-07-2011, 09:53 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i was actually thinking that belfour in '92 might have been somewhat similar to columbus with steve mason after his rookie year. if columbus had had a potentially even better goalie coming up, would they have had the stones to trade mason? knowing what we know now, they should have gotten something for him when he was still worth a king's ransom. and if chicago had had a crystal ball, they probably could have gotten someone like adam oates for belfour if they'd traded him in '92.
If only the Jackets had a replacement that comparison might be better! No but seriously I do like the comparison with Cbus, had they had a potential replacement it would have been much better than my Vancouver one.

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but of course, no one in their right mind would trade a young calder winning goalie who was also an post-season all-star and MVP candidate (eddie finished third for the hart, mason came fourth).
As a fan, and I think you'd agree with this, it's so easy to fall in love with a young kid who has done nothing but be excellent for your team. I would just hope our GM has a much more level-headed and realistic sense of current and potential talents of the players. Much easier said as a fan sitting on a message board lol, yet i still believe it to be true.

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schneids and lou, not a great comparison because lou is an established vet who may or may not be due for a career swoon. belfour was coming off his second NHL season and a deep playoff run, and looked destined to have a very long, distinguished career ahead of him. which of course he did.
Yeah, I can see now it wasn't the best comparison. I admit I didn't even take into account how young Belfour was and how much older Luongo is in the scenario. I was more thinking about how Lou just took the 'Nucks to the Finals, with a more than capable Schneider on the bench. My mistake.

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but a comparison might be philly in the fall of '86. no one in his right mind would trade a successful young goalie just coming into his prime, but bobby clarke has never been in his right mind when it comes to goalie transactions. bob froese was coming off a second team all-star year, second to beezer for the vezina, and three games into the next season they traded him to the rangers for kjell samuelsson and a second round pick because they thought they had an even better young goalie coming up (hextall). undoubtedly the right move, maybe the only time bobby clarke ever made the right move with a goalie.
This is definitely the better comparison of the three. Never knew about this either, learn something every day!

Imagine how hard it would be for a GM to be in this situation though. Even if he had no doubts that the younger replacement (Hasek) would be just as good if not better than the current (Belfour), the fans would almost inevitably have a fit if the current was traded. Thank goodness I'm not a GM.

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12-07-2011, 10:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Daze ended up being a pretty good player, too.

He was a power forward
...and the definition of "power forward" just got a lot broader.

Daze was a "power forward" by virtue of the size he was blessed with - nothing more.

to answer the OP - no, I don't fault Chicago at all. I thank them for getting rid of Hasek as fast as they did, so he could move on with his HHOF career.

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Old
12-07-2011, 10:43 PM
  #32
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Not sure how you can fault a team for getting rid of one HHOF for another HHOF.

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12-08-2011, 01:48 AM
  #33
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It has been noted that the Chicago Blackhawks were in the running for Eric Lindros at the 1992 NHL Entry Draft, but GM Mike Keenan backed out (probably because of Bill Wirtz). Had a deal for Lindros gone down, Belfour was rumoured to be part of the package. This means the Hawks would've gone with the tandem of Hasek and Jimmy Waite.

Would the Hawks have been Stanley Cup champions with Lindros and Hasek? We'll never know.

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12-08-2011, 03:21 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Some interesting online debates among Chicago fans from the summer of 1992 about whether Hasek might be better than Belfour, especially after his stellar relief performance against the Pens in Game 4 of the Finals:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...48d5927a056047

It wasn't crazy for Chicago to keep Belfour, who had won a Vezina the year before and would win one the next season, but it also wasn't a secret by that point that Hasek was a terrific goaltender in his own right.
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Hasek is a fine netminder, and could really help another team. Maybe if
Waite comes along, and LeBlanc goes in expansion, that trade with
Buffalo could send Hasek + warm body for Andreychuk, Hawerchuk (how much
chuck can a ...) and Ruutu, filling out Chi with some extra firepower to
keep the goons on the bench. (Buffalo names taken from Val Hammerl's
list of unwanteds). But you probably won't see an NHL team hang it's
hopes on a Euro goalie, given the old boy opinion that they are 2nd
rate, and the lack of championship success with imports (from Taako to
Myshkyn, possibly excepting the late Lindberg from Philly)."
Awesome quote.

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Old
12-08-2011, 03:35 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jinsell View Post
It has been noted that the Chicago Blackhawks were in the running for Eric Lindros at the 1992 NHL Entry Draft, but GM Mike Keenan backed out (probably because of Bill Wirtz). Had a deal for Lindros gone down, Belfour was rumoured to be part of the package. This means the Hawks would've gone with the tandem of Hasek and Jimmy Waite.

Would the Hawks have been Stanley Cup champions with Lindros and Hasek? We'll never know.
From an old thread:
"Chicago's offer was Belfour, Larmer, Steve Smith in a 5 player, 7 pick offer. In return Chicago would get Lindros & three Quebec choices, including Quebec's #1, where Keenan planned to pick Kasparitis.

Quebec though the Chicago offer was the best, and only asked them for $5 million in cash. Wirtz refused to pay, and also didn't want to pay Lindros either."

http://hfboards.com/archive/index.php/t-114822.html

That deal wouldn´t hurt Chicago as much as the eventual trade did for Philadelphia. Smith was a really good player, but replacable. Larmer only stuck around for one more season. And Chicagos drafting was of nothing special, so those could be thrown in. Had Hasek only reached 90% of his Buffalo himself that could have been THE 90´s-powerhouse. And some interesting battles with Detroit, NJ, Dallas and Philly (with keeping all the parts that went to Quebec they would propably be better off...). Add Quebec/Colorado also, probably never Roy - but instead Belfour and twopunch of Sundin/Sakic (Sundin probably never traded when not having a young Forsberg coming over in a couple of months...). Oohh - love Wendel Clark, but it breaks my hockey (especially the swedish part of it) heart knowing how close it was to see three of my favorite players of the 90/00´s together in Colorado... Forsberg/Sakic/Sundin...

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12-08-2011, 04:56 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
From an old thread:
"Chicago's offer was Belfour, Larmer, Steve Smith in a 5 player, 7 pick offer. In return Chicago would get Lindros & three Quebec choices, including Quebec's #1, where Keenan planned to pick Kasparitis.

Quebec though the Chicago offer was the best, and only asked them for $5 million in cash. Wirtz refused to pay, and also didn't want to pay Lindros either."

http://hfboards.com/archive/index.php/t-114822.html

That deal wouldn´t hurt Chicago as much as the eventual trade did for Philadelphia. Smith was a really good player, but replacable. Larmer only stuck around for one more season. And Chicagos drafting was of nothing special, so those could be thrown in. Had Hasek only reached 90% of his Buffalo himself that could have been THE 90´s-powerhouse. And some interesting battles with Detroit, NJ, Dallas and Philly (with keeping all the parts that went to Quebec they would propably be better off...). Add Quebec/Colorado also, probably never Roy - but instead Belfour and twopunch of Sundin/Sakic (Sundin probably never traded when not having a young Forsberg coming over in a couple of months...). Oohh - love Wendel Clark, but it breaks my hockey (especially the swedish part of it) heart knowing how close it was to see three of my favorite players of the 90/00´s together in Colorado... Forsberg/Sakic/Sundin...
How does Forsberg end up in Colorado if the Philly trade never happens?

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12-08-2011, 05:12 AM
  #37
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How was Chicago supposed to know their back up was going to be the best goalie to ever play the game? When they made the trade they probably even said, well its not like he's going to become the best goalie to ever play.

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12-08-2011, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
How does Forsberg end up in Colorado if the Philly trade never happens?
My fault for writing when in an hurry and therefore not putting down all my thoughts . Was dreaming about a scenario where the Lindros-trade happened as it did, but Quebec/Colorado never traded Sundin.

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12-08-2011, 06:49 PM
  #39
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It made perfect sense at the time.

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12-09-2011, 09:27 AM
  #40
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So here it is (whole article has 3 pages and is from 1992):

Dominik Hasek thought about leaving the NHL. He was proven and probably the best european goalie, he needn't to prove anything to anybody. Hasek's story would be probably different if he came to NHL 3 years earlier after the WC in Wien '87 (Blackhawks didnt have true #1). During his play in Indianapolis, Hasek denied offers from Germany and Switzerland...

A lot more, many problems caused Mike Keenan (at least from Hasek's POV). Hasek said he was no friend with Eddie, too. Problems with english. Problems with his stick-work...

The point of whole article is, that Hasek was really close to leaving NHL in Chicago.

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Old
12-09-2011, 08:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Daze ended up being a pretty good player, too.

He was a power forward who ...
I loved Daisy, but he was not a powerforward. He was big though.

Hasek wasn't seen as a good fit. He was a pure reflex goalie and uncoachable. He didn't get along with the Eagle, either (of course, Eddie didn't get along with Hackett, women in hotel rooms or most anyone else either so we won't blame Dom for this). You had Belfour who was a top-flight goalie, and not exactly old. Jimmy Waite was a top-10 draft pick, that people thought the world of. Hasek was an accomplished goalie on international ice that looked promising, but wasn't as proven as Belfour. He also turned down a boat load of money to come to the NHL not that long before he finally played in Chicago -- there were rumours he might return overseas.

Ruuttu was not far removed from a seventy point season in Buffalo. People thought a change of scenery might do him some good -- and it did. He put up fifty points bouncing between the second and third lines the first year in Chicago. He was also a decent penalty-killer. His shot was a bit weak for a top-6 forward though, but he had enough grit to be an effective third-liner.

I was pretty happy with the trade. Unless your name was Patrick Roy, goalies didn't fetch much in trades. A promising back-up with starter potential wasn't going to get a boat load -- especially one that was almost 30 years old already. It looks bad now, but no one knew Hasek would go from "good-" to "franchise-goaltender".

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12-10-2011, 01:47 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by _Del_ View Post
I loved Daisy, but he was not a powerforward. He was big though.

Hasek wasn't seen as a good fit. He was a pure reflex goalie and uncoachable. He didn't get along with the Eagle, either (of course, Eddie didn't get along with Hackett, women in hotel rooms or most anyone else either so we won't blame Dom for this). You had Belfour who was a top-flight goalie, and not exactly old. Jimmy Waite was a top-10 draft pick, that people thought the world of. Hasek was an accomplished goalie on international ice that looked promising, but wasn't as proven as Belfour. He also turned down a boat load of money to come to the NHL not that long before he finally played in Chicago -- there were rumours he might return overseas.

Ruuttu was not far removed from a seventy point season in Buffalo. People thought a change of scenery might do him some good -- and it did. He put up fifty points bouncing between the second and third lines the first year in Chicago. He was also a decent penalty-killer. His shot was a bit weak for a top-6 forward though, but he had enough grit to be an effective third-liner.

I was pretty happy with the trade. Unless your name was Patrick Roy, goalies didn't fetch much in trades. A promising back-up with starter potential wasn't going to get a boat load -- especially one that was almost 30 years old already. It looks bad now, but no one knew Hasek would go from "good-" to "franchise-goaltender".
He was 27 at the time of the trade. Same for Belfour.

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Old
12-10-2011, 02:49 AM
  #43
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He was twenty-seven and had appeared in a grand total of 31 NHL games -- many of them in relief. He looked good, but so did Jimmy Waite. It was an easy deal to make at the time. At the time, trading Waite for Ruuttu and the pick would have looked much worse.
As it went down it was similar to when Montreal traded Garon because management was happy with Theodore, but Garon never hit the ceiling that Hasek did. Both teams dealt a goaltender that looked like he might be a starter for a defensive forward because they were comfortable in net. Huet was a throw-in.
Or when San Jose sent off Kiprusoff for a pick because they were very happy with Nabokov and Toskala. You deal someone to avoid clogging the crease and wasting an asset. The market for a 27 year old goalie who isn't a starter just isn't that high.

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