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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Best Individual season by a player not named Gretzky & Lemieux-Round I

View Poll Results: Greatest individual Season
Steve Yzerman 1988-89: 80-65-90-155 8 14.81%
Phil Esposito 1970-71: 78-76-76-152 2 3.70%
Bernie Nicholls 1988-89: 79-70-80-150 1 1.85%
Jaromir Jagr 1995-96: 82-62-87-149 7 12.96%
Pat Lafontaine 1992-93: 84-53-95-148 0 0%
Mike Bossy 1981-82: 80-64-83-147 0 0%
Adam Oates 1992-93: 84-41-97-142 0 0%
Peter Stastny 1992-93: 80-46-93-139 0 0%
Bobby Orr 1970-71: 78-37-102-139 32 59.26%
Paul Coffey 1985-86: 79-48-90-138 2 3.70%
Marcel Dionne 1979-80: 80-53-84-137 0 0%
Guy Lafleur 1976-77: 80-56-80-136 0 0%
Jari Kurri 1984-85: 73-71-64-135 1 1.85%
Bryan Trottier 1978-79: 76-47-87-134 0 0%
Brett Hull 1990-91: 78-86-45-131 1 1.85%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-08-2011, 11:52 PM
  #76
pdd
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
How did Lemieux get the Pearson when Gretzky outscored Mario by 74 points?
That one I've always wondered about. Lemieux tied Coffey in GOALS and beat him by three assists. If Lemieux was better than Gretzky, and his scoring numbers were almost identical to Coffey's... shouldn't COFFEY have gotten it?

Lemieux's nearest teammate in 85-86 was Mike Bullard at 83 points, a 58-point difference. Yzerman's nearest was Gerard Gallant at 94 points, a 61-point difference. Lemieux did not perform any defensive tasks, while Yzerman routinely double-shifted as a checker against the opposition's top line while playing as the first line center.

Gretzky's 85-86 season was 215 points, to Lemieux's 199 in 88-89. Yzerman's 88-89 was 155, to Lemieux's 141 in 85-86. That's 30 points less between Yzerman and Lemieux than between Lemieux and Gretzky. So 78% of the offense, with significantly improved defense, or 66% of the offense with comparable defense. Which do you think is better? I don't have the figures in front of me, but let's say they were around 85% of 88-89. That puts Lemieux at 72-97-169 while Yzerman is at 55-77-132. Does Yzerman's considerable lack of help from the blueline, lack of forward help, and his defensive advantage make up that difference?

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12-09-2011, 12:14 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Average goaltender on a top team in the regular season, followed by a great playoff performance. In this case I nominate Chris Osgood's 2008 as better than Roy's 1993 as Osgood was a Vezina contender and Smythe contender, and Osgood's 2009 as he was an average goalie in the regular season and should have won the Smythe.
there are no words.

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12-09-2011, 12:58 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
That one I've always wondered about. Lemieux tied Coffey in GOALS and beat him by three assists. If Lemieux was better than Gretzky, and his scoring numbers were almost identical to Coffey's... shouldn't COFFEY have gotten it?

Lemieux's nearest teammate in 85-86 was Mike Bullard at 83 points, a 58-point difference. Yzerman's nearest was Gerard Gallant at 94 points, a 61-point difference. Lemieux did not perform any defensive tasks, while Yzerman routinely double-shifted as a checker against the opposition's top line while playing as the first line center.

Gretzky's 85-86 season was 215 points, to Lemieux's 199 in 88-89. Yzerman's 88-89 was 155, to Lemieux's 141 in 85-86. That's 30 points less between Yzerman and Lemieux than between Lemieux and Gretzky. So 78% of the offense, with significantly improved defense, or 66% of the offense with comparable defense. Which do you think is better? I don't have the figures in front of me, but let's say they were around 85% of 88-89. That puts Lemieux at 72-97-169 while Yzerman is at 55-77-132. Does Yzerman's considerable lack of help from the blueline, lack of forward help, and his defensive advantage make up that difference?
Lemieux was considerably better than Yzerman in 1989 quit trying to make it sound like it was close. Rob Brown and paul coffey cracked the top 10 because of lemieux. Stop using the basic linemates excuse. Yzerman started playing with shanahan and coffey, his numbers didnt all of a sudden skyrocket. Lemieux was on pace for 210 points that year, if yzerman had better teammates he still wouldnt have scored anywhere near what mario was at.

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12-09-2011, 01:58 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Average goaltender on a top team in the regular season, followed by a great playoff performance. In this case I nominate Chris Osgood's 2008 as better than Roy's 1993 as Osgood was a Vezina contender and Smythe contender, and Osgood's 2009 as he was an average goalie in the regular season and should have won the Smythe.
osgood was average in '08 and terrible in '09.

'08: .914 (among lowest quality shots of any goalie) -- 16th in sv%
'09: .887 (also among the lowest quality shots) --- worst by far among starters, and 72nd overall


osgood was probably the worst goalie in the NHL in '09, until march, when he became average. he allowed a huge number of soft goals, and was basically benched in february/march. april was the only month osgood's sv% was above .900.

conklin was mediocre in '09 (and sucked late in the season), but if his stats were applied to every game, DRW would have been 4th in GA, instead of 20th, and almost certainly would have won the presidents' trophy again.


osgood's ES sv% in '08 was .919, which was about average (surprising that hasek was .928).

osgood before all star break:---- .925, 1.87, 13-5-2
osgood after all star break: ----- .893, 2.46, 7-6-2

osgood also sucked for about 1 month in '08 in january/february. part of that was b/c many d-men were injured, but osgood also played badly. 3 GA on 4 shots vs nashville. 4 GA on 13 shots vs CBJ. 5 GA on 25 shots vs LAK. 4 GA on 17 shots vs atlanta.


osgood was better than hasek in '08 (average vs below average), but osgood played worse later in the season, especially in january and february, when he sucked, which is probably one of the main reasons why hasek started in the playoffs.


putting osgood's '08 above roy's '93 is incredibly ridiculous, even for you.


i would have given '09 smythe to zetterberg.

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12-09-2011, 02:32 AM
  #80
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Fedorov's best season was in 1993-94, not 1995-96
My bad, 93-94 of course.

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12-09-2011, 08:57 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Average goaltender on a top team in the regular season, followed by a great playoff performance. In this case I nominate Chris Osgood's 2008 as better than Roy's 1993 as Osgood was a Vezina contender and Smythe contender, and Osgood's 2009 as he was an average goalie in the regular season and should have won the Smythe.
Honestly...comparing Roy's '93 playoffs, one of the top 3 in history, to Osgood's 2008?
You were making some good arguments and then you just dropped your credibility about 3 notches with all this Osgood talk.

Osgood was an average to good goalie that only had to play good enough not to lose. He rarely had to steal any games and just because he actually did steal a couple in '08, you want him to have the Smythe and rank it with Roy's '93....c'mon man.

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12-09-2011, 09:01 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
How did Lemieux get the Pearson when Gretzky outscored Mario by 74 points?
They are human voting with a lot of human factor, giving it not always to the same guy could be a good enough factor.

Playing more against one or seeing more of his game at the tv too.

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12-09-2011, 02:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Vanbiesbrouck was far better than regular-season Roy in 92-93 and was completely left out of Vezina voting for some reason; in fact his numbers placed him among the top four or five goalies. Hasek, Puppa, Cheveldae, and Essensa matched his performance statistically in the regular season and none of them received votes either. Was Roy the eighth best, or did he simply get two third-place reputation votes?

As for Osgood... the only reason he was so far down in 2008 was because he split time with Hasek. Had he played a majority of games (say 60) and posted similar per-game numbers, he would have easily been a finalist.



Because Lemieux had two teammates in the top six in scoring (Brown at 115 and Coffey at 113), and his linemates (Brown and Dan Quinn) scored 209 points. and Gretzky's linemates (Bernie Nicholls at 150 and Luc Robitaille at 98) scored 248 points, while Yzerman's primary linemates (Gerard Gallant at 94 and Paul MacLean at 71) scored 164 points. Yzerman scored an almost identical percentage of his line's points as Lemieux. But this also doesn't account for the fact that Yzerman was double-shifted on a checking line - typically with two of Adam Graves, Shawn Burr, and Bob Probert - against the opposing team's top players. All three played a considerable amount, but Yzerman was the only one of the three who ever played in a defensive role.



Howe's, Gretzky's, Lemieux's, Orr's, sure. When you get to Esposito, Lafleur and Jagr I don't think it's so clear cut. Jagr dominated offensively, but he was also a major liability defensively. Fedorov was DOMINANT defensively, and in 94 was the league's best offensive forward. In 96 he was among the best offensive forwards. he was always dominant defensively, and he was always very effective offensively, even when his scoring totals were lower. Jagr's 96 season should not rank ahead of Fedorov's 94 season, simply on the fact that Jagr played a great deal on a line with Lemieux and Francis at even strength, or he was on the second line and didn't see the opponent's top defensive unit. The Lemieux/Francis/Jagr line was also the primary PP unit for the entire season. Fedorov never had that kind of offensive punch on his line, and in his 94 season Yzerman was injured for much of the year so the other team could easily target Fedorov with their defensive units.

Another interesting thing about 1994? Yzerman's PPG projects to 119 points. Imagine if he had stayed healthy. Would he have scored 119? More? His ice time decreased after Fedorov's breakout. Maybe Yzerman wins the Art Ross.



Most likely? Why not Dave Keon? Craig Ramsay? Don Marcotte? I'm assuming you picked Clarke because he eventually won one. But those guys were all considered better during and immediately after the period you talk about.



Huh? If you have a lot of skill, and don't have anyone skilled to play with, it's easier to score?? WTF?

Crosby and Malkin do well because a team has to commit their best defensive unit to one or the other; meaning one of them gets a weaker defensive unit. Most teams don't have two high-end defensive units. That's the reason Detroit beat Pittsburgh in 2008 and almost in 2009; deep defense and good defensive forwards. Malkin not being suspended for Game 3 in 2009, and being in beast mode all playoffs, is what ultimately won it for Pittsburgh. Crosby was shut down both years by Zetterberg, and Malkin did ok in 2008 and much better (mainly in Game 3) in 2009.



Yeah, fantasy hockey. Scoring 56 goals and 120 points while being the best defensive forward and one of the best defensive PLAYERS in the game. The only fantasy about that is fantasizing about having him on your team.



Fedorov did work hard. He also didn't score as much in following seasons because the Wings moved to a defense-first system and Yzerman wasn't injured for 24 games.



Zetterberg came into the league as a great two-way player. The Wings simply encouraged that style. Datsyuk needed a bit more molding on the defensive side of things.



Fedorov was an elite defensive forward from day one. Modano improved his defense considerably but he never should have gotten as close to the Selke as he did. That was ridiculous. Of course, Kris Draper, the one "true" checking-line player in recent years to win it only won it because of his scoring. He wasn't even the best defensive forward on his team that year.



Similar in accomplishments... but Sakic was not nearly as good defensively. He was a bit better offensively (scoring was slightly down; his 118 points were probably worth 125 or 130 in 1994) but he was well below Fedorov's 1994 level defensively. Honestly I think Fedorov didn't get enough credit through the 90s in Selke voting because of his offensive production as it compared to his 93-94 season. Eastern voters took a lok and thought "nah, he didn't do that well this year." And I will back this up with the fact that he won the trophy in 1996, although in my opinion Yzerman should have won it with Fedorov second.
You really don't have your facts right. Jagr a defensive liability? A defensive liability is someone who is a minus player and everytime he's on the ice, the opposing team has more chances of scoring than him or his line. Jagr's offensive (just like Gretzky and Lemieux) was his defense. Esposito won 5 Art Ross trophies but won all of them playing with Orr. Jagr was a beast on his own and won 4 of his Art Ross trophies without Lemieux. Let's say Jagr never had Lemieux comeback and help win his last Art Ross, that's still 4 Art Ross trophies. You don't win 4 Art Ross trophies by simply being good, you win it by being the best player in the game.

For a good 7 years Jagr was considered (with Lemieux and Hasek) either the best or second best player in the game. The guy was a Hart Finalist 6 times and finished 2nd 4 times total also winning 1 Hart. You keep giving excuses as to why Federov's numbers dropped but Detroit always played a defensive first system since Federov won his Hart. He was playing on a line of great Russian players that complemented each other. Fedorov has no one to blame but himself for his numbers regressing so early in his caeer. He got lazy and stopped trying has hard only sometimes showing up in the playoffs.

As for the poor excuse that Jagr played on Lemieux' line, Jagr not once played on Lemieux' line 5-on-5 in 199596 where he did most of his damage. He scored 149 Pts and 100 of them came at evenstrength where Lemieux was nowhere to be seen. Sure they shared powerplay time together but that season it seems Lemieux benefited more from Jagr than the other way around because Lemieux got most of his points on the powerplay where Jagr played. On top of that Lemieux also missed 12 games and in those games Jagr got all of the other team's top defensive pairings. Are you telling Lemieux got all the defense against and left Jagr to just have free reign? That's naive! Jagr was coming off of an Art Ross the previous (while Lemieux was sitting rehabbing his back) so it's not like Jagr came out of nowhere.

I'm giving Fedorov credit but it seems like you're trying to prop up Fedorov by trying to diminish Jagr's abilities and accomplishments. Jagr is by a better player than Fedorov and that's not even insulting Fedorov.

Check Jagr's top 5 evenstrength finishes every year between 1993-94 and 2000-01 and then again 2005-06 and 2006-07. Jagr was always in the top 3 every year I mentioned sometimes even finishing first. You don't do that by being a defensive liability as you put. Otherwise Jagr's teams would have been involved in many 6-5 games which was not the case in the "Dead Puck Era". Jagr's 1995-96 season is more impressive than Fedorov's 1993-94 and that's not even Jagr's best season. I can name 3 other seasons in which Jagr was still more impressive than Fedorov in 1993-94; 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06 being the seasons.

Look at Jagr's +/- in the years he won the Art Ross, he was always near the top for forwards in the NHL. When you played a puck control game as well as Jagr did (the best puck control player of all-time) then you're basically got the puck in the offensive zone most of the time usually not allowing the opposing team to get any scoring chances. Get your facts straight.

When Fedorov socred 56 goals and had 120 Pts, his teammate Sheppard had 52 goals and 93 Pts. That Red Wings team had 6 players who topped the 70 Pts mark, including Yzerman who missed 24 games and still put up 82 Pts. Not like Fedorov was doing it all on his own.

BTW Sakic's defensive game in 2000-01 was comparable to Fedorov's game. Sakic just lost to a player who was known for his two-way play in Madden.

Fedorov has been considered a top 5 forward possibly twice in his career (the 2 years he won the Selke) that's about it. Jagr has been a top 2 forward or better in 1994-95, 1995-96, 1996-97 (if not for injuries would have challenged Lemieux for the Art Ross), in 1997-98, 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01 and then again in 2005-06. That's 8 time in which he was either game's best or second best forward. If you want to also including as a top 5 forward, then he has a case in 2001-02 as well as 2006-07 (where he played with a reconstructed shoulder all year long and still finished 8th in scoring).


Last edited by livewell68: 12-09-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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Old
12-09-2011, 06:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
You don't win 4 Art Ross trophies by simply being good, you win it by being the best player in the game.
The best? Better than a guy who finishes second AND wins the Selke at the same time? Disputable at least.

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Jagr is by a better player than Fedorov and that's not even insulting Fedorov.
Yes, because Fyodorov didn't repeat his 93-94 season. If he did, a lot of people would probably take him over Jágr.

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Jagr's 1995-96 season is more impressive than Fedorov's 1993-94 and that's not even Jagr's best season. I can name 3 other seasons in which Jagr was still more impressive than Fedorov in 1993-94; 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06 being the seasons.
Certainly not obvious. Arguments please?
Player A: Best scorer in the league, defensively ... well, whatever you want to call it, far from Selke calibre in any case.
Player B: Second best scorer in the league + Selke winner.
Who do you take?

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12-10-2011, 09:36 PM
  #85
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This should only be about forwards. Orr's season is the obvious choice if you include defensemen.

I would add Maurice Richard's 1944-45 to the mix. He finished second in points behind elmer lach who played on his line. But his 50 goals were insane for the time. Kinda like someone who would score 85 goals today.

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12-10-2011, 10:03 PM
  #86
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Lemieux was considerably better than Yzerman in 1989 quit trying to make it sound like it was close. Rob Brown and paul coffey cracked the top 10 because of lemieux. Stop using the basic linemates excuse. Yzerman started playing with shanahan and coffey, his numbers didnt all of a sudden skyrocket. Lemieux was on pace for 210 points that year, if yzerman had better teammates he still wouldnt have scored anywhere near what mario was at.
Coffey cracked the top ten because of Lemieux? You have to go all the way back to Coffey's 81-82 season to find a year he doesn't put up the 96 points required to make the top ten (Robitaille was tenth with 98, Hawerchuk 11th with 96) and most of those years he was CONSIDERABLY above that level.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Honestly...comparing Roy's '93 playoffs, one of the top 3 in history, to Osgood's 2008?
You were making some good arguments and then you just dropped your credibility about 3 notches with all this Osgood talk.

Osgood was an average to good goalie that only had to play good enough not to lose. He rarely had to steal any games and just because he actually did steal a couple in '08, you want him to have the Smythe and rank it with Roy's '93....c'mon man.
Hmm. How about this. Osgood posted a .930 in the playoffs in 2008. Roy posted a .929 in 1993. Both were second among goalies playing significant minutes. Osgood led off the Cup finals with two shutouts. Roy had no shutouts. The only series the Habs didn't have home ice in was against Quebec. As if that counts.

People **** themselves about Roy because he is a great goalie and played for a great team which set him up for some great performances. Other goalies who put up great years or playoff performances get brushed away with the "but his TEAM was great, so he clearly didn't do much" excuse. It's like the "those Montreal teams sucked" line used to help Roy, that people use until I point out that they were actually very good teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheGoalsLarger View Post
This should only be about forwards. Orr's season is the obvious choice if you include defensemen.

I would add Maurice Richard's 1944-45 to the mix. He finished second in points behind elmer lach who played on his line. But his 50 goals were insane for the time. Kinda like someone who would score 85 goals today.
Lach won the Hart trophy. So bringing up the 50-in-50 would just be for novelty. Why not "Phantom" Joe Malone instead? 44 goals and 48 points in 20 games in 1917-18? Now THAT'S a season.

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12-10-2011, 10:35 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheGoalsLarger View Post
This should only be about forwards. Orr's season is the obvious choice if you include defensemen.

I would add Maurice Richard's 1944-45 to the mix. He finished second in points behind elmer lach who played on his line. But his 50 goals were insane for the time. Kinda like someone who would score 85 goals today.
I agree about Orr's season being the obvious best. I disagree about Richard's 1945 season. The NHL was still somewhat weakened from WW2 at the time. It is definitely not the equivalent of scoring 85 goals today. Richard had better seasons, like in 1947.

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12-10-2011, 10:46 PM
  #88
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1.Orr - Pretty self explanatory.
2. Yzerman - That team sucked wang.

None of the others really stand out for me.

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12-10-2011, 11:07 PM
  #89
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Did someone seriously vote Bernie Nicholls? Like... for serious?

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12-10-2011, 11:26 PM
  #90
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I agree about Orr's season being the obvious best. I disagree about Richard's 1945 season. The NHL was still somewhat weakened from WW2 at the time. It is definitely not the equivalent of scoring 85 goals today. Richard had better seasons, like in 1947.
you're probably right.

interesting facts in here:
http://thehockeywriters.com/the-50-goal-season/

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12-11-2011, 02:40 AM
  #91
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Hmm. How about this. Osgood posted a .930 in the playoffs in 2008. Roy posted a .929 in 1993. Both were second among goalies playing significant minutes. Osgood led off the Cup finals with two shutouts. Roy had no shutouts. The only series the Habs didn't have home ice in was against Quebec. As if that counts.

People **** themselves about Roy because he is a great goalie and played for a great team which set him up for some great performances. Other goalies who put up great years or playoff performances get brushed away with the "but his TEAM was great, so he clearly didn't do much" excuse. It's like the "those Montreal teams sucked" line used to help Roy, that people use until I point out that they were actually very good teams.
You are really going to compare Osgoods team Roys teams?...

Sorry buddy, but stop there. Detroit was the best team in 2008. They had Selke winner Datsyuk along with great two-way player Zetterberg. Norris trophy winner Lidstrom with Rafalski. Plus great depth. That was a great team. Osgood had a very defensive minded team in front of him.

What Roy did in the playoffs that year was special. He had 3 games go into overtime in the finals. That team had some good talent, but struggled in the playoffs numerous times. Roy pulled them out of it.

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