HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Jagr

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-10-2011, 02:39 AM
  #51
dats81
Registered User
 
dats81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Carinthia
Country: Austria
Posts: 2,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post

We're set up beautifully to win the cup right now. We have Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Jagr on the upper-end of the age bracket, we have some guys in their prime and we have some young guys yet to hit their prime. Regardless, we have the best scoring in the NHL and an amazing defensive core of players (and pretty much none of them are young inexperienced guys... they are all vets who've played in multiple playoff runs).

Likewise, we're also set up beautifully for the future. We have Bryz in goal for the next 5+ years (and Bob too... at least for now). We have Mesz and Coburn to lead the next generation of flyers defensemen (a #1 D is a need, but we have time to address this and if Suter hits free agency, that could be accomplished this offseason). And then we have the absolute best young core of forwards (except for maybe EDM?) with (Giroux-Couturier-Schenn down the middle, Hartnell-JVR-Voracek-Read-Simmonds on the wings (+ Briere on the wing for the next 4 years including 11-12), and Talbot and Rinaldo on the 4th. And we also have Akeson, Wellwood, Ranford, etc. in the prospect pool.

This is a team that is well setup for both now and later.

And why mess with that? Going into "win now" mode rarely works for a team. And pawning off assets to "rebuild" when you're a perfectly fine contender also rarely works for a team (we dodged a big time bullet trading Richie and Carter and somehow coming out of it = or perhaps ahead). Leave things alone for now.
That's the point: we have already shaped a great nucleus by trading for and signing great players that are in their prime right now. Schenn and Couturier may need another 3-4 years until they are able to carry a team themselves, so the time is either NOW or 3-4 years away. But 3 or 4 years from now Timonen, Briere, Jagr, Hartnell,... won't be available any more and the GM will be looking to fix major holes again and again and again....

dats81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 02:42 AM
  #52
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 11,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
my bad, got linked over here from this post on the Red Wings thread. But the point still stands to the OP. But, explains the preaching to the wrong people argument, thought I posted it there.
I think you will be best served if you re read the thread.

Synopsis however would be that scenario of jagr for smith was a ploy to see how fans react to win now vs win later . While both teams are competitive the flyers fans wanted to keep jagr whereas the red wings fans wanted to keep Smith. This im sure is due to some emotional connection fans have to players but in terms of winning which one is more popular to win now or to win later? Point being fans want both. They want to win now without having to give up the prospect and then they want that prospect to develop into an all star so they can win later. But the game theory of the NHL sets strict standards on the definition of success. But there are other definitions to understand as well not just from the fans pov but from all aspects of the sports as a business as a livelihood and as entertainment.

a great example that i wanted to bring up is the Florida Marlins. Winners of the 1997 world series. They then deconstructed there ball club and traded away kep componets and with those key components were able to bring in enough talent to win the 2003 world series only to deconstruct the team again. The marlins have been a success anyway you look at it in terms of on field success, but that same on field success has not trasnferred over to financial success or a fanbase that has a large following. Now keep in mind the restrictions of that region and of the marlins as an expansion team are numerous. So how do teams and fans and players define success is what im trying to get at. It isnt the same for all three, yet winning plays a key role in all three just not winning championships.

Jtown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 02:55 AM
  #53
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 11,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
That's the point: we have already shaped a great nucleus by trading for and signing great players that are in their prime right now. Schenn and Couturier may need another 3-4 years until they are able to carry a team themselves, so the time is either NOW or 3-4 years away. But 3 or 4 years from now Timonen, Briere, Jagr, Hartnell,... won't be available any more and the GM will be looking to fix major holes again and again and again....
Good point.

As a fan I look at it like this. If i want to increase my odds of winning a championship this year I trade Couturier and Schenn for pieces that we can use this year.

But at the risk of doing that im in a situation where if i dont win this year my chance of winning in the future is greatly decreased.

So which is better? Improved odds this year for worst odds in the future? Or do nothing and lower this years odds and increasing future odds?

My belief is that fans are scared of Risking the future to win now. Fans want to win now and they want to win in the future. Which according to game theory is a poor strategy.

Jtown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 08:41 AM
  #54
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 39,078
vCash: 500
I'm not sold that we have a chance this year. It's not like the Flyers routinely start well before dropping off sharply in the second half of the season. There's enough key old guys and key rookies to expect this will happen again

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 09:53 AM
  #55
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,623
vCash: 500
This isn't really Game Theory, it's more like Decisions Under Uncertainty.

OP apparently ignores several things:

- Flyers have a legitimate chance to win Cup this year
- Jagr is a big reason for their current success
- Jagr almost certainly has NTC

As pointed out by many others, there is also the effect this would have on future signings.

Finally, it's possible that each team/team's fans would keep their current player for non-sentimental reasons, based on how they fit into their system and future plans.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 10:26 AM
  #56
SgtJoseph
Registered User
 
SgtJoseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
In the future, try to read the whole thread before commenting.

Or at least get your sarcasm detector out.

Because you failed here. And you failed hard.
With some of the crazy opinions posted on here [myself included] it is tough at times to decipher sarcasm from real opinion.My bad.

SgtJoseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 11:15 AM
  #57
Smoky
Registered User
 
Smoky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ontario,Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Originally when i thought about this i thought about the Red Wings. Wings are built to win now and there top 6 could use a bit more firepower. THey have a D prospect Brendan Smith who i know nothing about but figured he would be a nice prize. I dont think i would trade Jagr for a First however.

Im just worried that at the end of the year Jagr may hang them up and we may lose him for nothing.

Smoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 02:42 PM
  #58
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Good thread!!!

Pronger is definitely done for year, Flyers are done, Jagr should definitely be traded.

Kimmo Timonen and Danny Briere too.

Might as well trade Giroux too. The fact that he hasn't been able to seize the "C" in Pronger's absence clearly shows a lack of leadership.

I think we can all see it's time to turn this team over to Schenn and Couturier anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Dude, I'm not going to calm down. The season is OVER. Can't you see this?!?

We need to trade what we can while we still can. This team needs a reboot.

Jagr, Briere, Timonen, Giroux, Hartnell, they all need to go. We need to start w/ Schenn & Couturier... that's a solid base for the future.
I like this guy.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2011, 05:11 PM
  #59
turkinaa
Registered User
 
turkinaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 915
vCash: 500
I hate to side track the thread but seeing as how we are almost all in agreement that Jagr is at least staying the season and if Pronger misses most of the season/possibly the playoffs, do the Flyers try to go out and get another big D? I feel that they almost have to rather than rely on 2 prospects getting at most 20 min total ice time (that lack of ice time is eaten up by our other D and wears them down). Of course where do you draw the line of forfeiting pieces to fill holes (with or without making more holes) or harming the future? Do you do nothing?

Is Jagr going to be the reason (along with Pronger's injury) we try to win it all?

turkinaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:06 AM
  #60
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,913
vCash: 500
After last night's game, would any of you still try to trade Jagr?

I know it's early on in the season and everyone keeps claiming that the Bruins are better than the Flyers and that a "healthy Penguins team with Crosby" is also better than the Flyers.

I think the Flyers (even minus Pronger) could beat the Penguins with Crosby in a 7 game series. Something tells me that Jagr is waiting for that opportunity. Not only would it be sweet revenge for the way the Penguins fans and organization treated him but also for the way the Penguins beat his Rangers team in the 2008 playoffs.

I say if given the chance, Jagr would have a "legendary" series against the Penguins.

The Bruins seem like they are rolling but in the playoffs anything can happen and I like our chances. We're bigger on the wings now with Simmonds, Voracek and Jagr and the Bruins players can't knock them off the puck as easily.

I say keep Jagr. Who knows, this might be the Flyers' year.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:12 AM
  #61
jagrgodr
Registered User
 
jagrgodr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,513
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
After last night's game, would any of you still try to trade Jagr?

I know it's early on in the season and everyone keeps claiming that the Bruins are better than the Flyers and that a "healthy Penguins team with Crosby" is also better than the Flyers.

I think the Flyers (even minus Pronger) could beat the Penguins with Crosby in a 7 game series. Something tells me that Jagr is waiting for that opportunity. Not only would it be sweet revenge for the way the Penguins fans and organization treated him but also for the way the Penguins beat his Rangers team in the 2008 playoffs.

I say if given the chance, Jagr would have a "legendary" series against the Penguins.

The Bruins seem like they are rolling but in the playoffs anything can happen and I like our chances. We're bigger on the wings now with Simmonds, Voracek and Jagr and the Bruins players can't knock them off the puck as easily.

I say keep Jagr. Who knows, this might be the Flyers' year.
Could you imagine Jagr vs Crosby in the playoffs!?!??! I think that would be equal to or better than Crosby vs Ovechkin in the playoffs. WOW just thinking about that..

jagrgodr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:40 AM
  #62
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm not sold that we have a chance this year. It's not like the Flyers routinely start well before dropping off sharply in the second half of the season. There's enough key old guys and key rookies to expect this will happen again
I agree with you to a point. Just looking at players on a roster, its easy to say they dont have a chance. But if you look around the league, a lot of the "super" teams that some people had winning are doing horrendously. I dont think you can call it, at this time, a 30 game fluke, but teams like the Caps, Sharks and even the Kings are doing bad. Remember the commotion around here when Richards got traded to the Kings? "They won the cup. Give it to them already". Yea Richards is hurt, but the Kings are 13-12-4 right now. Not super threats everyone thought they would be.

I think it really depends on where we are at near the trade deadline. If we are still doing as well as we are now, I think it does stop becoming a fluke and starts becoming a legit chance. If we are out of playoffs and are close, we start to rethink our strategy. If we are totally out, we trade guys like Jagr who want to win the cup and we get better for the future.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:46 AM
  #63
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 39,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I agree with you to a point. Just looking at players on a roster, its easy to say they dont have a chance. But if you look around the league, a lot of the "super" teams that some people had winning are doing horrendously. I dont think you can call it, at this time, a 30 game fluke, but teams like the Caps, Sharks and even the Kings are doing bad. Remember the commotion around here when Richards got traded to the Kings? "They won the cup. Give it to them already". Yea Richards is hurt, but the Kings are 13-12-4 right now. Not super threats everyone thought they would be.

I think it really depends on where we are at near the trade deadline. If we are still doing as well as we are now, I think it does stop becoming a fluke and starts becoming a legit chance. If we are out of playoffs and are close, we start to rethink our strategy. If we are totally out, we trade guys like Jagr who want to win the cup and we get better for the future.
Yeah, if it's closer to the playoffs and we are still rolling along, at that point I'm still against trading Jagr. Jagr helps us more on the team than he does off it. Breaking up the best line is something I wouldn't want to do.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:48 AM
  #64
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I agree with you to a point. Just looking at players on a roster, its easy to say they dont have a chance. But if you look around the league, a lot of the "super" teams that some people had winning are doing horrendously. I dont think you can call it, at this time, a 30 game fluke, but teams like the Caps, Sharks and even the Kings are doing bad. Remember the commotion around here when Richards got traded to the Kings? "They won the cup. Give it to them already". Yea Richards is hurt, but the Kings are 13-12-4 right now. Not super threats everyone thought they would be.

I think it really depends on where we are at near the trade deadline. If we are still doing as well as we are now, I think it does stop becoming a fluke and starts becoming a legit chance. If we are out of playoffs and are close, we start to rethink our strategy. If we are totally out, we trade guys like Jagr who want to win the cup and we get better for the future.
There's literally 0 chance of us missing the playoffs this year. Would need to be a whole heap of injuries to stop us.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:51 AM
  #65
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,681
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I think it really depends on where we are at near the trade deadline. If we are still doing as well as we are now, I think it does stop becoming a fluke and starts becoming a legit chance. If we are out of playoffs and are close, we start to rethink our strategy. If we are totally out, we trade guys like Jagr who want to win the cup and we get better for the future.
I think this sums it up right here. No need to trade a guy for anything if he is helping contribute and they are contending for home-ice advantage. If they are out, then it makes no sense to keep a 75 year old guy on the team when there are suitors who may deal something for him if they are close to a Cup.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
  #66
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
There's literally 0 chance of us missing the playoffs this year. Would need to be a whole heap of injuries to stop us.
Like right now? Obviously its speculation right now but say we go into Tuesday without Giroux and Bryzgalov I wont feel the most confident. Yea Breezy hasnt been the best and I like Bob but losing Giroux, who honestly is our teams offense is going to sting...badly. We will miss his league leading GWGs, among other things.

Be interesting to see if Lavy can continue to get us to win with the players we have minus Giroux and Breezy. Pens did it without Malkin and Crosby, so it is possible. At that point, I think you put Briere with Hartnell and Jagr and just hope that line can put up all the points.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 12:04 PM
  #67
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Like right now? Obviously its speculation right now but say we go into Tuesday without Giroux and Bryzgalov I wont feel the most confident. Yea Breezy hasnt been the best and I like Bob but losing Giroux, who honestly is our teams offense is going to sting...badly. We will miss his league leading GWGs, among other things.

Be interesting to see if Lavy can continue to get us to win with the players we have minus Giroux and Breezy. Pens did it without Malkin and Crosby, so it is possible. At that point, I think you put Briere with Hartnell and Jagr and just hope that line can put up all the points.
No, I mean like way more than right now.

At this point, Schenn has a minor concussion, Pronger has who knows what, Giroux is rumored to be fine and at worst will miss a couple games, and Bryz is rumored to have a minor "boo-boo". Basically his muscle is sore is the rumor I heard.

It would take a lot more than 3 minor injuries and 1 potentially major one (Pronger) to derail this team.

If Giroux was out for a massive length of time? Yeah, then maybe you worry, but he won't be.

My point is your scenarios are kind of ridiculous. odds are we're in the playoffs @ the deadline anywhere from #1 to #6. I don't see us being much lower than this.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 12:17 PM
  #68
phlocky
Registered User
 
phlocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,156
vCash: 500
/thread


(nothing more needs said)

phlocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2011, 01:32 PM
  #69
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,002
vCash: 500
We are the best team in the EC right now. Why would I contemplate trading a PPG player who makes 3.3M and has rediculous chemistry with CG? Hell no, provided he remains healthy, he gives us the best chance of going deep in the playoffs. Jagr stays.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 08:41 AM
  #70
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Not only do I want to keep Jagr regardless of our PO position, I want to extend him.


Last edited by StevensCakeBakerBacker: 12-12-2011 at 09:23 AM.
StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 08:52 AM
  #71
Xegiie
Registered User
 
Xegiie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Czech republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 1,941
vCash: 500
Jagr said this was second time in his life he could chose where to go, do you really think he would sign something telling they can trade him away, so he spend his last years in some who-knows-what-****-team?
i don't think so.

ps: and to Jtown im glad ppl like you don't run the managment, i have many words to tell you, but none of them can be posted here, well i hope you get the idea.


Last edited by Xegiie: 12-12-2011 at 09:09 AM.
Xegiie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 09:42 AM
  #72
Broad st phantom
Registered User
 
Broad st phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
We are the best team in the EC right now. Why would I contemplate trading a PPG player who makes 3.3M and has rediculous chemistry with CG? Hell no, provided he remains healthy, he gives us the best chance of going deep in the playoffs. Jagr stays.
This I couldn't say it any better myself.

If we don't make the playoffs I could see this trade take place. But lets be realistic we are gonna make the playoffs, and Jagr will be to important of a piece to trade away.

Broad st phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 10:10 AM
  #73
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,548
vCash: 500
You don't trade Jagr when we're in playoff contention, let alone, leading the East at the moment

As for an extension, possibly.

We don't have much cap space next season if the roster stays the same as it is now. We have to priorotize our signings obviously. We have about $59.7m already against the cap

The ones I can with at least a possibility of coming back:
-Vorachek
-Jagr
-Zolnierczyk
-Bourdon
-Marshall

Who I don't expect to be back
-Carle
-Laperriere (obviously)
-Betts (obviously)

RJ8812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 10:56 AM
  #74
YuioIklo
Registered User
 
YuioIklo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec
Country: Martinique
Posts: 1,436
vCash: 500
Trading Jagr makes no sense at all, the guy is a legend doing a comeback and signed for 1 year. Plus, he's having a great year and a great chemistry with Giroux. Plus, I can't think of a better veteran to teach Giroux; he has the potential of being a superstar (and some say he's already one), let's do everything we can to help him reach that potential.

YuioIklo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2011, 12:33 PM
  #75
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,248
vCash: 500
For me, trading Jagr would only be viable in the same scenario as trading Forsberg: Flyers out of contention and Jagr approves Holmgren's request to trade him. On the latter, the appropriate approach would be along the lines of: "Jaromir, things have gone horribly wrong this season, and I'm sure you're as upset as the rest of us about how it unravelled. I've been approached by a couple of teams about landing you for the playoffs, and I want to get your feedback. I am very happy to keep you here in Philadelphia and I'm not at all going to pressure you to waive your no-trade clause. If you are interested in giving yourself a chance to play in the playoffs, though, I'll return their calls and we can make this work for both of us. The teams who have asked about you are: ________, ________ and _________. Please let me know what you think."

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.