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Should the Ducks retire #9 for Paul Kariya

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12-11-2011, 03:24 PM
  #1
californiahockey
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Should the Ducks retire #9 for Paul Kariya

Paul is the one who put this franchise on the map and he deserves more recognition for his great work as a duck. In the pre-teemu era people came to the pond to see Paul and without him the Ducks would have been the laughing stock of the league. Not to mention he nearly carried the team to a stanley cup in 2003 and forced everybody in the league to give the ducks respect.


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12-11-2011, 03:32 PM
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Couple things: the pre-Teemu era was very brief, and Kariya didn't play in the club's inaugural season. People came to see the team because it was a novelty. Kariya was a bonus.

Laughingstock: the team was a laughingstock anyway, and it wasn't Kariya's fault certainly, but he didn't change that. Stupid name, terrible team, sunbelt location.

2003 playoffs: Kariya most certainly did not carry the team in the 2003 playoffs. That team was an underrated group to be sure, but the only person carrying anything was Giguere. Kariya was an absolute flop in those playoffs, even though it did produce a career highlight for him.

As for retiring his number, well. I'd really rather not.

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12-11-2011, 03:44 PM
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No, he didn't lead this team anywhere while he was here and he left on bad terms. Selanne, Giguere and maybe Niedermayer are the only guys who deserve to have their numbers retired.

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12-11-2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
Couple things: the pre-Teemu era was very brief, and Kariya didn't play in the club's inaugural season. People came to see the team because it was a novelty. Kariya was a bonus.

Laughingstock: the team was a laughingstock anyway, and it wasn't Kariya's fault certainly, but he didn't change that. Stupid name, terrible team, sunbelt location.

2003 playoffs: Kariya most certainly did not carry the team in the 2003 playoffs. That team was an underrated group to be sure, but the only person carrying anything was Giguere. Kariya was an absolute flop in those playoffs, even though it did produce a career highlight for him.

As for retiring his number, well. I'd really rather not.
I agree that Giguere was totally clutch in those playoffs (after all he did win the conn smythe even thought they lost) but to say that Kariya was an absolute flop is a falicy. Everytime he was on the ice he made something happen.

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12-11-2011, 03:51 PM
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No, he didn't lead this team anywhere while he was here and he left on bad terms. Selanne, Giguere and maybe Niedermayer are the only guys who deserve to have their numbers retired.
And the only reason Niedermayer would even be a consideration is how much he did in Anaheim, during his time here. Kariya spent a good deal of time in Anaheim, and didn't even accomplish half of what Scotty did.

If Kariya hadn't left the way he did, I think he'd be a consideration, but still a question mark. What did he actually accomplish here? What did the team accomplish with him here? They had one of the most exciting duos in the league, and... what? They made the 2003 Cup Finals, and lost in Game 7, in a playoff run that saw Giguere put the team on his back.

This might be the second time I've ever seen someone say Kariya carried the team to the Cup Finals. There were three individuals most analysts say were valid Conn Smythe candidates. Brodeur, Niedermayer, and Giguere. Kariya wasn't even an honorable mention on that count.

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12-11-2011, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
I agree that Giguere was totally clutch in those playoffs (after all he did win the conn smythe even thought they lost) but to say that Kariya was an absolute flop is a falicy. Everytime he was on the ice he made something happen.
Not really. He was okay, but he was far from an impact player on a consistent basis during those playoffs. The Ducks had 6 players with 10 points or more. Kariya was 3rd on the team with 12 points. Their offense was spread out in those playoffs. No single line was dominant, and no single line was terrible. There was a lot of timely scoring, and basically the team leaned on defense and Jiggy to hold the fort.

Giguere wasn't just clutch. He was the backbone of the team. Their best player pretty much every night. After him, you had Carney. After Carney, I'd give credit to Rucchin, Rob Niedermayer, Oates, and Leclerc before Kariya. They simply brought more. When Kariya wasn't in the offensive zone, he was pretty easy to miss.

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12-11-2011, 04:01 PM
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I can't believe you guys could hold such a grudge on the player who made the franchise. And paul didn't want to leave Anaheim. Murray had a bit of a hold out against him and he was forced to explore his options. He knew Murray didn't want to pay him as much and Paul was ok with that, as long as that put other players around him that could help lead the ducks to another playoff run.

Also put yourself in his shoes. You are one of the most promising prospects in the world and you get drafted to a team named after a childrens movie who's ownership was only concerned with making money. He could have easily demanded a trade (lindros) and gone to a respectable established franchise. But instead he embraced the start up small market club and became an ambassador for the sport. In my mind the two largest reasons why hockey is growing at such a great rate in southern california is because of Gretzky becoming a King, and Kariya being a stud with the Ducks.

As i said earlier it is very possible that if the Ducks never had Kariya they would not still be around today.

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12-11-2011, 04:04 PM
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When people compare Kariya's and Niedermayer's success in Anaheim, they have to remember that Kariya played during the Mighty Ducks era when Disney didn't give a damn about the team and Niedermayer played in the beginning of Ducks era. Kariya had no chance at leading Mighty Ducks anywhere because the team was mostly crap and Niedermayer was the last piece of that puzzle which won us Stanley cup.

I wouldn't mind if Ducks retired Kariya's number (Bobby would have to change his number though). After all, Paul was the first player to be drafted by Anaheim so it makes sense for him being the 1st one up there.

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12-11-2011, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
I can't believe you guys could hold such a grudge on the player who made the franchise. And paul didn't want to leave Anaheim. Murray had a bit of a hold out against him and he was forced to explore his options. He knew Murray didn't want to pay him as much and Paul was ok with that, as long as that put other players around him that could help lead the ducks to another playoff run.

Also put yourself in his shoes. You are one of the most promising prospects in the world and you get drafted to a team named after a childrens movie who's ownership was only concerned with making money. He could have easily demanded a trade (lindros) and gone to a respectable established franchise. But instead he embraced the start up small market club and became an ambassador for the sport. In my mind the two largest reasons why hockey is growing at such a great rate in southern california is because of Gretzky becoming a King, and Kariya being a stud with the Ducks.

As i said earlier it is very possible that if the Ducks never had Kariya they would not still be around today.
Paul Kariya did not "make" this franchise. As for him wanting to stay, he certainly showed that, didn't he? When he wasn't qualified, he jumped ship. I don't call that loyalty.

As for being drafted, give me a break. Look at a number of the 1st overall picks of the past decade. How many of them were drafted onto crappy teams? How many of them demanded trades? Kariya was going to be a franchise player on a new NHL team. Sounds like a dream for a young player.

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12-11-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JabbaJabba View Post
When people compare Kariya's and Niedermayer's success in Anaheim, they have to remember that Kariya played during the Mighty Ducks era when Disney didn't give a damn about the team and Niedermayer played in the beginning of Ducks era. Kariya had no chance at leading Mighty Ducks anywhere because the team was mostly crap and Niedermayer was the last piece of that puzzle which won us Stanley cup.

I wouldn't mind if Ducks retired Kariya's number (Bobby would have to change his number though). After all, Paul was the first player to be drafted by Anaheim so it makes sense for him being the 1st one up there.
Thank You!

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12-11-2011, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
I agree that Giguere was totally clutch in those playoffs (after all he did win the conn smythe even thought they lost) but to say that Kariya was an absolute flop is a falicy. Everytime he was on the ice he made something happen.
Kariya scored points in 2 of the 7 games in the finals. That is not good enough for a so called superstar and team leader who made $10M that year. If Kariya shows up to play every game that series, they might have won a cup that year.

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12-11-2011, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Paul Kariya did not "make" this franchise. As for him wanting to stay, he certainly showed that, didn't he? When he wasn't qualified, he jumped ship. I don't call that loyalty.

As for being drafted, give me a break. Look at a number of the 1st overall picks of the past decade. How many of them were drafted onto crappy teams? How many of them demanded trades? Kariya was going to be a franchise player on a new NHL team. Sounds like a dream for a young player.
A young players dream is going to a franchise that seriously wants the team to succeed.

Ovechkin-Capitals

Kane-Blackhawks <---------- These are examples of (crappy) teams that a player

Stamkos-Lightning would want to be the face of. NOT THE MIGHTY DUCKS

Crosby- Penguins

Nugent-Hopkings/Hall - Oilers

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12-11-2011, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JabbaJabba View Post
When people compare Kariya's and Niedermayer's success in Anaheim, they have to remember that Kariya played during the Mighty Ducks era when Disney didn't give a damn about the team and Niedermayer played in the beginning of Ducks era. Kariya had no chance at leading Mighty Ducks anywhere because the team was mostly crap and Niedermayer was the last piece of that puzzle which won us Stanley cup.

I wouldn't mind if Ducks retired Kariya's number (Bobby would have to change his number though). After all, Paul was the first player to be drafted by Anaheim so it makes sense for him being the 1st one up there.
The difference is that Scotty lead this team to success. He wasn't just a member of a good team, he was the leader of that team, and he showed it everytime he hit the ice. He was the driver.

With Kariya, I never felt he lead the team in that manner. When the Mighty Ducks were having success, it wasn't Kariya behind the wheel. It was Giguere. Kariya was a passenger.

Maybe that's not fair for Kariya, but I don't think Anaheim would have had the same kind of success with Kariya on the team instead of Niedermayer after the lockout.

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12-11-2011, 04:17 PM
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Kariya has the numbers for sure, basically the only reason I wouldn't like it is because he'd only get booed.

Selanne's will obviously be up there, and I hope Giguere's will be too.

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12-11-2011, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
A young players dream is going to a franchise that seriously wants the team to succeed.

Ovechkin-Capitals

Kane-Blackhawks <---------- These are examples of (crappy) teams that a player

Stamkos-Lightning would want to be the face of. NOT THE MIGHTY DUCKS

Crosby- Penguins

Nugent-Hopkings/Hall - Oilers
Right, the Oilers. A team that was last in the NHL two years in a row. What a wonderful example.

The Mighty Ducks were a brand new team. You can't stereotype them at that point. You're using the benefit of hindsight, and trying to make an argument that doesn't exist.

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12-11-2011, 04:23 PM
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Hasn't this topic been up for discussion a number of times before? I think that management answered that question when they gave number 9 to Ryan. I agree with management. Kariya didn't do enough, and he left the team in a most disheartening manner.

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12-11-2011, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Right, the Oilers. A team that was last in the NHL two years in a row. What a wonderful example.

The Mighty Ducks were a brand new team. You can't stereotype them at that point. You're using the benefit of hindsight, and trying to make an argument that doesn't exist.
The oilers are continuing to show signs of becoming a successful team in the near future. Talk to me in 3 years when they are dominating the NHL

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12-11-2011, 04:35 PM
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Kariya has the numbers for sure, basically the only reason I wouldn't like it is because he'd only get booed.

Selanne's will obviously be up there, and I hope Giguere's will be too.
Here's an option. Retire or honor Kariya's #9 for the MIGHTY ducks possibly along with Herbet and Salei and let Bobby Ryan keep #9.

As for the fans booing Kariya, that would just be embarassing. HE MADE THE DUCKS

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12-11-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
A young players dream is going to a franchise that seriously wants the team to succeed.

Ovechkin-Capitals

Kane-Blackhawks <---------- These are examples of (crappy) teams that a player

Stamkos-Lightning would want to be the face of. NOT THE MIGHTY DUCKS

Crosby- Penguins

Nugent-Hopkings/Hall - Oilers
The Capitals tanked for Ovechkin and were a HORRIBLE team when they got him. GMGM had a storied history of assembling teams that choked in the playoffs and making bad Coaching hires. Still does, actually. They have an owner willing to spend to win, but the Caps were never a free agent destination of choice prior to Ovechkin.

The Blackhawks were one of the worst run franchises in the NHL prior to the elder Wirtz passing away. Period. Free agents wouldn't sign there without a ludicrous overpayment (see Brian Campbell). Star players were mistreated and traded away (See Roenick, Belfour, Chelios, Amonte, etc etc etc)

The Lightning was a joke. Joke ownership, mismanaged cap and overpaid stars preventing team depth. Not a free agent destination at all. How you can insinuate they were a preferred team for a young player is beyond me.

And the Penguins had no money, no stars, no arena, and nothing but relocation talks prior to Crosby. No free agents or kids because, well, they sucked and had no money. Kids aren't keen on going to teams with no future just because they won some cups about the same time the kid was born and nothing since.

Kariya should be up there, but current ownership owes him nothing, so I doubt it will happen.

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12-11-2011, 04:42 PM
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The difference is that Scotty lead this team to success. He wasn't just a member of a good team, he was the leader of that team, and he showed it everytime he hit the ice. He was the driver.

With Kariya, I never felt he lead the team in that manner. When the Mighty Ducks were having success, it wasn't Kariya behind the wheel. It was Giguere. Kariya was a passenger.

Maybe that's not fair for Kariya, but I don't think Anaheim would have had the same kind of success with Kariya on the team instead of Niedermayer after the lockout.
So you are saying a passenger would do something like this.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ebTSeDGsds

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12-11-2011, 04:48 PM
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So you are saying a passenger would do something like this.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ebTSeDGsds
That's the only thing people will remember of Kariya in those playoffs. Not exactly helping his cause there.

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12-11-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by californiahockey View Post
Here's an option. Retire or honor Kariya's #9 for the MIGHTY ducks possibly along with Herbet and Salei and let Bobby Ryan keep #9.

As for the fans booing Kariya, that would just be embarassing. HE MADE THE DUCKS
Not an option, Kariya does not deserve to be recognized at all. One, he would get booed so loudly it would be pretty embarrassing. And two, he left the team on terrible terms, saying he would take a paycut and comeback for less to help get the missing piece for a cup run in 03-04, there are still a lot of fans that wont forgive that. In the long run it was great though, franchise was better off without Kariya floating on average teams.

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12-11-2011, 04:56 PM
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Not an option, Kariya does not deserve to be recognized at all. One, he would get booed so loudly it would be pretty embarrassing. And two, he left the team on terrible terms, saying he would take a paycut and comeback for less to help get the missing piece for a cup run in 03-04, there are still a lot of fans that wont forgive that. In the long run it was great though, franchise was better off without Kariya floating on average teams.
In hindsight, it really was good for the team. An Anaheim team, with Paul Kariya signed long-term to an expensive contract is likely an Anaheim team that doesn't win the Cup in '07.

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12-11-2011, 05:06 PM
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That's the only thing people will remember of Kariya in those playoffs. Not exactly helping his cause there.
Kariya led the team in scoring by 22 that year in the regular season and a lot of why they were even IN the playoffs. In the playoffs he was second (by 1 point) in scoring with 12 and second (by 1 goal) in goal scoring with 6. He wasn't dominant in the playoffs but calling him a passenger is incorrect IMO. Giguere kept them in the games and deserved his award, but Kariya wasn't just sitting back letting the other forwards do all the work. Unless you're saying Selanne was a passenger to Getzlaf in '07, because the numbers as pretty similar.

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12-11-2011, 05:09 PM
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I could live with his numbers up in the HC rafters


... but if this will happen before Teemu - i`ll be pissed as hell.

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