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#27 - 12.11.2011 | Florida Panthers @ New York Rangers | 7:30 PM - MSG (HD)

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12-11-2011, 05:07 PM
  #101
nyrleetch
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Oh wow. Give me a break, Avery also has years and years of pro NHL experience over Carl, yet somehow it's because of his doubled ice team, that he is producing and bringing what Avery cannot. I don't even dislike Avery and this is a completely ridiculous excuse for why Hagelin has outplayed him in every facet of the game since his call-up.

Get real.
I am not putting down Hagelin at all. I love what he has brought so far. I just don't understand why they are being compared when they aren't playing similar roles at all.

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12-11-2011, 05:08 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by nyrleetch View Post
Dubinsky is getting the chance to put up points. How exactly has Avery been given the chance? Avery is producing fine for his limited minutes.
You keep rolling out Dubinsky. I really wouldn't. Dubinsky is far and away the better player in LITERALLY EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME. If you didn't give him more ice time than Avery, you'd be the king of fools.

You also seem to be implying that if Avery was given Dubinsky's ice time, he'd be just as or a more effective player. Once again, this is laughable.

Avery is practically a non-factor. We're swapping him for a non-factor that we can put in the shootout.

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12-11-2011, 05:10 PM
  #103
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can't wait for the day that you can log onto the Rangers HF page and not have to read the whinging abot the ice-time of 4th line forwards.....

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12-11-2011, 05:10 PM
  #104
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Its not that Avery is worthless. I, unlike the people who hate EC would never refer to an NHL level player as "worthless" because that would be hyperbole and nonfactual.

However Avery is no better than any other 4th line option we currently have. He is not better than Rupp, and not significantly better than a guy like Newbury to justify the difference in salary.

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12-11-2011, 05:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
You keep rolling out Dubinsky. I really wouldn't. Dubinsky is far and away the better player in LITERALLY EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME. If you didn't give him more ice time than Avery, you'd be the king of fools.

You also seem to be implying that if Avery was given Dubinsky's ice time, he'd be just as or a more effective player. Once again, this is laughable.

Avery is practically a non-factor. We're swapping him for a non-factor that we can put in the shootout.
If Avery got 64 minutes of powerplay time I can assure you he could pick up a point. Dubinsky is easily the better player between Avery but Dubinsky is given all opportunities to perform well. Where is the accountability there?

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12-11-2011, 05:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
You keep rolling out Dubinsky. I really wouldn't. Dubinsky is far and away the better player in LITERALLY EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME. If you didn't give him more ice time than Avery, you'd be the king of fools.

You also seem to be implying that if Avery was given Dubinsky's ice time, he'd be just as or a more effective player. Once again, this is laughable.

Avery is practically a non-factor. We're swapping him for a non-factor that we can put in the shootout.
Whoa I need to step in here. I love dubi but cmon you're insane. Dubi on PAPER is a better player, so far he hasnt shown us ANYTHING.

Avery has 1/4 the ice time and 3x as many goals as Dubinsky (and dubi has TWICE as many games played). In all honesty id rather give Avery Boyle's minutes instead of Dubi since I think he will come alive at some point.

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12-11-2011, 05:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
Avery has gotten 7 minutes of ice time a game this season.

He has 3 points in 15 games.

Christensen has gotten 7 and a half minutes of ice time a game this season.

He has 4 points in 16 games.

Rupp got 6 minutes of ice time a game this season

He had 1 point in 6 games.

These are all pretty comparable. You can claim that EC got some PP time mixed in but 3 of the 4 of his points were at even strength, so he is producing just as much at even strength as Avery.

Rupp is producing almost the same as Avery. 1 goal in 6 at 6 minutes a game is roughly equal to 3 in 15 at 7 minutes a game.
Christensen averaged 7:55 per game.

All 4 of his points came in 2 games.

His ES points, 3 assists came on goals to Callahan, Anisimov, and Girardi (secondary), how often does Avery see shifts with players of this capability? Yes he took regular shifts with Dubinsky but he's not scoring as we all know too well.

Some PP time? In his last three games EC saw 2:29 on the PP out of 8:47 total, 0:47 on the PP out of 9:29 total (outlier compared to the rest of data in terms of PP to Total TOI) and 1:56 on the PP out of 8:01 total.

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12-11-2011, 05:14 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
You keep rolling out Dubinsky. I really wouldn't. Dubinsky is far and away the better player in LITERALLY EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME. If you didn't give him more ice time than Avery, you'd be the king of fools.

You also seem to be implying that if Avery was given Dubinsky's ice time, he'd be just as or a more effective player. Once again, this is laughable.

Avery is practically a non-factor. We're swapping him for a non-factor that we can put in the shootout.
I can't speak for nyrleetch but I'm pretty sure his point is more to how Avery hasn't been given the chance to get these points that the Avery haters are quickly pointing at.

Avery is a spark-plug and can be add fire to the team. He is also physical and works the cycle game very well. Christensen is an absolute waste of a player as he is not physical whatsoever and cant control a puck because every time he gets hit, he is taken out of the play.

IMHO Christensen provides nothing to the lineup whereas Avery (who hasn't provided much) CAN provide something.

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12-11-2011, 05:16 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
Also its not uncommon for coaches to play rested players on the back night of a B2B. Christensen is fresh legs at this point.
It would make sense if Avery played a lot but that isn't the case here.

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12-11-2011, 05:16 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by nyrleetch View Post
If Avery got 64 minutes of powerplay time I can assure you he could pick up a point. Dubinsky is easily the better player between Avery but Dubinsky is given all opportunities to perform well. Where is the accountability there?
You answered your own question man. Dubinsky is clearly the better player, younger, and on a nice new contract. He's obviously more valuable to the organization for a myriad of reasons. Therefore Torts is going to give him every opportunity to succeed, even if he should continue not to.

How would giving Avery, or anyone else for that matter, Dubinsky's minutes help him? It's important to this team that he gets out of his funk, it has little to do with accountability. Everyone here has been down on Dubinsky lately, just look at every trade proposal in the past 2 months.

It's also not like Dubinsky gets on the ice, gives up 4 turnovers and is causing the other team to score. He's just not finding his offensive game. If he were going out there every night and playing horrible defensively, and floating around, not working along the boards, then yeah, Torts would have his ass benched.

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12-11-2011, 05:21 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Are you serious? I mean, I know some folks like Avery, and I know that most guys here can't stand EC, but if you think Avery's being judged by his goal scoring, I have to wonder if you're paying attention. I don't mean to be confrontational, but if this team is relying on Sean Avery to win us a game, then ****ing fail for nail right here and now.

Christensen brings shootout. Nothing else. If whoever is in the slot isn't going to be seeing alot of ice time, it only makes sense to go with the player that can bring a skillset we can use. and who knows. Maybe he and Hagelin can get some flow.

Seriously. I've had enough of people *****ing about Avery's ice time. If he was good enough to get the time on ice, he'd be getting it. Really. He's not that good.
So when Avery didn't score last season the knock was he wasn't helping the team now he is scoring goals(tied for 7th among forwards) and now it's not what he should be judged on? So EC is gonna get a sweater in case we get to a SO?

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12-11-2011, 05:22 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SRTtoZ View Post
Whoa I need to step in here. I love dubi but cmon you're insane. Dubi on PAPER is a better player, so far he hasnt shown us ANYTHING.

Avery has 1/4 the ice time and 3x as many goals as Dubinsky (and dubi has TWICE as many games played). In all honesty id rather give Avery Boyle's minutes instead of Dubi since I think he will come alive at some point.
Dubinsky has done just about everything but score goals this season. His work on the PK next to Cally is world class, he's done a decent job grinding and forechecking, has executed some passes that created the goals as much as the shot themselves, and has continued his defensive play. More than stats, they way they've played separates the two left wingers

NOW WHEN YOU GET TO BOYLE that's a different story. I don't remember being this frustrated with a player since Gabby last season. Hopefully, Torts puts EC with Mitch and Haggy, and we can roll 4 lines again.

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12-11-2011, 05:22 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Christensen averaged 7:55 per game.

All 4 of his points came in 2 games.

His ES points, 3 assists came on goals to Callahan, Anisimov, and Girardi (secondary), how often does Avery see shifts with players of this capability? Yes he took regular shifts with Dubinsky but he's not scoring as we all know too well.

Some PP time? In his last three games EC saw 2:29 on the PP out of 8:47 total, 0:47 on the PP out of 9:29 total (outlier compared to the rest of data in terms of PP to Total TOI) and 1:56 on the PP out of 8:01 total.
We assume that Avery isnt racking up assists because of Dubinsky when the likelihood is the other way around. Dubi and Prust combined for 36 goals last season. This season they have 3, coincidentally while playing around half of their games on a line with Sean.

The difference between 7 minutes and 7:55 a game is practically negligible. ANd if we are going to start discounting multi-point games than this is going to be a difficult discussion indeed. I think that would make Gaborik a 9 goal scorer last year.

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12-11-2011, 05:23 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Dubinsky has done just about everything but score goals this season. His work on the PK next to Cally is world class, he's done a decent job grinding and forechecking, has executed some passes that created the goals as much as the shot themselves, and has continued his defensive play. More than stats, they way they've played separates the two left wingers

NOW WHEN YOU GET TO BOYLE that's a different story. I don't remember being this frustrated with a player since Gabby last season. Hopefully, Torts puts EC with Mitch and Haggy, and we can roll 4 lines again.
So I guess the real question here is, when will Torts scratch Boyle?? The dude has been downright awful. I would normally say, well we have him for his size but he's so incredibly weak for a big man and cant fight worth a lick.

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12-11-2011, 05:24 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
He and Zuccarello are cult figures. Very small, dedicated followings.

This decision has been awhile coming. Sean has done nothing in his limited ice time recently to bring anything on him. Hagelin, on the other hand took his limited ice time and amassed 6 points in 8 games, while playing on the penalty kill.
So using this measuring stick for ice time, Prust, Boyle and Dubi should all be sitting at some point.

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12-11-2011, 05:25 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
So when Avery didn't score last season the knock was he wasn't helping the team now he is scoring goals(tied for 7th among forwards) and now it's not what he should be judged on? So EC is gonna get a sweater in case we get to a SO?
I don't like this argument but unfortunately it appears to be true.

Yes I was arguing Avery's assists hard last year while everyone else was looking at his goal total, and can admit that his 0 assists so far this season are troublesome in 15 games. The dude is seeing 7 minutes of ice per game with the likes of Prust and struggling Dubinsky though, it would be tough for any foward to put up numbers with those two.

That's why I'm trying to present some empirical evidence but I seem to go unnoticed, oh well.

I also think it's ridiculous to compare Avery to Dubinsky, Dubi brings a lot more and I think his game is still sharp everywhere but putting the puck in the net. He'll find his groove too and I applaud Tortorella for allowing him to do so.

I'm just very set in my belief that Avery is always a better option than EC, and is even currently a better option than Boyle who also continues to get good ES time mixed in with PP time. That 20 goal year was a falsity. Never again, and I'd love to eat crow on that one but I'm afraid I won't.

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12-11-2011, 05:25 PM
  #117
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This board is ridiculous when Avery's not in the lineup. EC gives up a shootout option so we don't go 0/3 again.

Get over it.

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12-11-2011, 05:26 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
So using this measuring stick for ice time, Prust, Boyle and Dubi should all be sitting at some point.
Dubi and Boyle are each a couple of bad games away from getting sat. This is considerable harder for them to pull off however as they are both important PK members of this team coming off 20 goal campaigns. Avery is coming of a 3 goal campaign and is not a good pk player.

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12-11-2011, 05:26 PM
  #119
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if Avery gets waived on down yet again is there even a shot anyone picks the guy up?

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12-11-2011, 05:27 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
This board is ridiculous when Avery's not in the lineup. EC gives up a shootout option so we don't go 0/3 again.

Get over it.
Didn't you know? If AVery got more ice-time neither Staal or Sauer would have concussion, the Rangers would be undefeated and cancer would be cured....

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12-11-2011, 05:28 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
So when Avery didn't score last season the knock was he wasn't helping the team now he is scoring goals(tied for 7th among forwards) and now it's not what he should be judged on? So EC is gonna get a sweater in case we get to a SO?
You're looking to me for the arguements of other posters. Avery's goal totals will never be my reason for "knocking him" I don't expect him to score goals. I call that a bonus. To my eyes, he has been a non-factor (within his given ice time).
I don't like Avery's game. I've never hidden this fact. I like the physical game, and it's fun watching other teams get pissed at him, but I don't think his intangibles make up for his lack of versatility on the ice.

As far as personality goes, I don't even have that much of an issue. When he spoke out in favor of gay marriage rights, he earned A LOT of respect from me. You don't normally see an athlete do something like that. I do not think he makes us a better team.

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12-11-2011, 05:28 PM
  #122
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And all of Avery's ZERO assists? Against Dubinsky's eleven? How about our outstanding penalty kill, to which Avery has been SO important to. Or our powerplay, which scored in 7 straight games? Or some great defensive play.

Let's not kid around. Dubi was our scoring leader last season, and Avery got sent to the AHL. There's no comparison.
...so how long does Dubi get a pass this season for not scoring based on last season?

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12-11-2011, 05:28 PM
  #123
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if Avery gets waived on down yet again is there even a shot anyone picks the guy up?
He cleared at half price a month ago. Unless someone thinks he has done anything to prove value at 1.9 million between then and now, no.

In fact, i'd bet my life savings on it.

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12-11-2011, 05:28 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
This board is ridiculous when Avery's not in the lineup. EC gives up a shootout option so we don't go 0/3 again.

Get over it.

Avery was 1/1 in minors this year

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12-11-2011, 05:29 PM
  #125
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can't wait for the day that you can log onto the Rangers HF page and not have to read the whinging abot the ice-time of 4th line forwards.....
this is a good Pt ..in fairness its because Avery has a cult following

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