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12-10-2011, 05:40 PM
  #126
livewell68
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Messier was never close to Lemieux's level. In 1990 Lemieux was injured and missed 21 games, but scored six fewer points than Messier and 24 fewer than Gretzky. In 1992, Lemieux missed 16 games, but led the league in scoring with 131 points, 8 points ahead of Kevin Stevens, and he was ten points ahead of Gretzky. Fourth place was Brett Hull at 109. How Messier ended up with a Hart or Pearson in his career I don't know.

Comparing Messier and Yzerman... Yzerman was 2 behind Messier in 90 and 4 behind Messier in 92. Those were the only two years from 87-88 through 93-94 where Yzerman didn't have a better (usually FAR better) points per game number. I say points per game because Yzerman posted 82 in 58 games compared to Messier's 84 in 76 in the 93-94 season. The 6-point difference is accounted for simply by the 90-91 season alone; everything else there is a bonus.

People rank Messier above Yzerman because he has six Cup rings and captained two franchises. There are even people out there who rank him as the fourth (or even third) best center of all-time. Some of those people rank him above Gordie Howe on All-Time lists. Seriously. No joke. Messier is so loved because he's the "ideal" Canadian player. He's big and strong, tough and gritty, he can play an offensive game, he's defensively responsible (but over-rated), and he's a fighter. He's also considered some kind of super-leader that takes bottom-level teams and makes them Cup winners, when the only teams he ever played on that came anywhere close to the finals were among the league's top teams.



Yzerman had the best raw statistical offensive EVER not had by someone other than Gretzky or Lemieux. That's not "potential", as you put it. He won the Pearson over Lemieux's 199 points, and was the Hart favorite most of the year until the Wings dropped out of the playoffs at the end of the year.



There were only nine 100-point scorers. They played for five teams. One of them was a defenseman (Paul Coffey) and all of the forwards on the same team were linemates. Guess which 100-point forwards didn't have a linemate in that group? Steve Yzerman and Joe Mullen. Mario Lemieux had Rob Brown, Wayne Gretzky had Bernie Nicholls, Jimmy Carson had Jari Kurri. Beyond that, Luc Robitaille scored 98, Mark Messier scored 94, and Dan Quinn scored 94. So both Lemieux and Gretzky had both their linemates outscore both of Yzerman's linemates (Gallant with 93 and MacLean with 71). Beyond that, there's Coffey in Pittsburgh with 115 and Duchesne in LA with 75. The highest scoring Detroit defenseman? Steve Chiasson with 47 points.

Also, with regards to Jagr's 1999 season... have you taken a look at his ice time? He played a RIDICULOUS amount of time that season. Comparing him to a defense-first Yzerman from that season, Jagr scored 82 ES points, 44 PP points, and 1 SH point; Yzerman had 47, 24, and 3. If Yzerman had played Jagr's ice time at his per-minute rates, he'd have posted 62 ES, 27 PP, and 1 SH. A total of 90 points, plus Selke-level defense; he was fourth in voting. If he scored 90 points, he probably wins it.



But Jagr was playing on the PP with Mario Lemieux, and he was spending a lot of time on a line with Lemieux and Francis that year, or on the second line where he wasn't seeing top defense pairings. Yzerman saw a far more difficult environment than Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky, Esposito, or Orr in their respective peak offensive stretches.



With the argument that Yzerman was left off the '87 Canada Cup team? Or the argument that Keenan wanted Eric Lindros and Mark Messier instead in 1991? Yzerman being left off in 1991 was ridiculous, even if he was the worst defensive forward in the world. He was the most productive Canadian goal-scorer over the previous three seasons, and was second in points. He had no help in doing this; it was all him. His skills were not limited to playing center, and he could play scoring line or checking line (he played checking center very well in '84) so ultimately it's the fact that Yzerman was left off because Keenan didn't like him. And Keenan absolutely plays favorites.



Jagr was double-shifted on SCORING lines. Yzerman was playing on both scoring and CHECKING lines. If he was double-shifted on scoring lines playing the same amount of time, he'd have been close to 200 points.



More than average? Yep. Point per game Selke contender in a low-scoring era. I guess that's a more-than-average two-way player.



How long is this list? Jagr was a pretty good skater and had some serious top-end speed at his best... but Fedorov, Bure, the Courtnalls, Coffey, Orr, Perreault, LaFontaine, Mogilny, Gartner, and even some more recent guys like Niedermayer, Cogliano, etc.



Wrong.



No. Just plain no.



Goalies were outright afraid of Yzerman's shooting ability when he was on the ice, even though he rarely had anyone to work with and they could focus on him.



Jagr might have more raw skill, but he wasn't a better player.



Again, this is incorrect. Lemieux/Francis/Jagr played a good chunk together at ES.



Best player? Or best scorer?



Yep, it speaks it the fact he had a great offensive season and nearly won what has effectively become the "best forward" award, except when there are truly outstanding (or hyped) goalies or defensemen.



I personally rank Jagr fourth, behind Lemieux, Konstantinov, and Fedorov.
Although I may be biased towards Jagr, all I wrote is fact. You on the other hand are showing the biggest Red Wings homerism I have ever seen.

Konstantinov better than Jagr? That's a joke.

THN (The Hockey News) ranked Lemieux no. 1 in 1995-96 and guess who was number 2? Jagr. not Fedorov or Konstantinov.

Do you know what the 1995-96 Red Wings team will always be remembered for? The biggest choke job in NHL history. To win 60 games and not win the Cup.

BTW you keep calling Yzerman defense first. Yzerman wasn't defense first at all until Bowman showed up. Two-way and Yzerman did not mix in the 80's. Stop with your revisionist history.

Jagr had 149 Pts and was + 31 in 1995-96. Fedorov had 107 Pts and was +49 playing on the best regular season team in the NHL.

The difference in scoring is way too great no matter how well Fedorov was defensively. If Fedorov was so great, he would have been nominated for the Hart.

Let' say Fedorov had won the Selke award and scored 120 Pts then it would be closer in scoring to say maybe Fedorov's two-way game makes up for the scoring gap. Jagr outscored Fedorov by 42 Pts, too big a difference.

From 1994-95 to 2000-01, Jagr was either the best or second best forward in the NHL quite easily.


Last edited by livewell68: 12-10-2011 at 05:56 PM.
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12-10-2011, 05:44 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Look man, I witnessed both seasons and both players in great detail and Yzerman's was the more impressive, both on paper and in person.
Jagr has never been as fast or as agile as Yzerman was and what Jagr did with strength, Stevie did with speed.
As far as skill level, you seriously need to watch some more prime Yzerman tape my friend because you quite obviously never really saw it in person.
I'm not even sure how much of Jagr's '96 season you actually saw or were old enough to truly understand what you were seeing.

And again, you keep on citing who Jagr played with like it means something.
Yzerman played with Gallant and MacLean...END OF STORY!
Lemieux took the heat, HE had the other teams top checkers going against him, NOT Jagr. Yzerman had the same heat on him that Lemieux and Gretzky would face.
You want to talk about speed and agility and skill. Have a look at this.



BTW, I know some don't take adjusted stats very seriously but have a look at this.

Jagr shows up twice on the list before Yzerman's 1988-89 even shows up once. Do you know which seasons of Jagr's show up before Yzerman? 1995-96 and 1998-99.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html

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12-10-2011, 05:58 PM
  #128
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Jagr wins just based on his mullet. Even Barry Melrose was jelly of that thing.

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12-10-2011, 09:21 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
You want to talk about speed and agility and skill. Have a look at this.



BTW, I know some don't take adjusted stats very seriously but have a look at this.

Jagr shows up twice on the list before Yzerman's 1988-89 even shows up once. Do you know which seasons of Jagr's show up before Yzerman? 1995-96 and 1998-99.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html
I find it an interesting argument.

"The 80s were much better; there wasn't all this watered down AHL talent of the late 90s and 2000s" but then when an argument comes up suggesting an 80s player is better it's "Look at the adjusted stats! And that year was one of the highest scoring EVER!"

How about this. Take the player's linemates and the two highest scoring other forwards on the team. Total scoring for Jagr (99) is 213 compared to 301 for Yzerman. So both were FAR above what the forward support brought. Now let's move to defense.

Jagr had Kevin Hatcher scoring 38 points, Werenka at 24, and Slegr at 23. Yzerman had Steve Chiasson scoring 47 points, Norwood at 42, and Zombo at 21. So it's basically even for the #1 in raw stats. After that there's a bit more (raw) help for Yzerman, but realistically, Yzerman had less help than Jagr. Had the Red Wings managed to eke out the 4th seed, Yzerman probably runs away with the Hart.

Of course this comparison for Jagr 96 vs Yzerman 89 looks silly... Lemieux, Francis, Nedved, and Sandstrom add up for 449 points - more than Yzerman's 4 forwards AND top three defensemen. Add Zubov (66), Mironov (34), and you can combine MacIver (23 in 32) and Wilkinson (12 in 41) as MacIver was sent to the Jets for Wilkinson. That's 135 points on defense compared to 110 for 89 Yzerman.

As for the "Why weren't Fedorov/Konstantinov" up in Hart voting... 25 players received Hart votes that season. Four of them were Red Wings (Fedorov, Konstantinov, Yzerman, and Osgood) and among them only Yzerman (95 points, Selke nom) did not receive votes as the best player at his position. The Wings also had Paul Coffey (5th in Norris and AS at D), Nicklas Lidstrom (6th in Norris and AS at D), Brendan Shanahan (4th in AS at LW) so it's easily understandable how the Wings didn't end up with a Hart finalist, although Fedorov was fifth. There was also a general stigma in the 90s and early 2000s of "Wings players can't win the Hart, who exactly is the most valuable player on an All-Star team?" which basically put different voting criteria on Wings players than on other teams. For example... Nicklas Lidstrom should have won the 2004 Hart, and was no less important to his team than Pronger in 2000. How can you make a fair argument for Hart as a defenseman when the previous year's Norris winner is often your defense partner, and is playing no worse that season?

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12-11-2011, 01:45 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
For all of Yzerman's offensive ability, he wasn't better than Jagr. As scoring started to dip, so did Yzerman's numbers rather considerably. As scoring got harder, Jagr got better. Big difference.

Jagr was bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled than Yzerman.

Yzerman is not a top 5 all-time offensive player, Jagr is. Big difference. Aslo as some have pointed out, Yzerman was average defensively when he was scoring in the 100 Pts.

BTW for those who say Yzerman got 155 Pts, only 2 other players scored more that year and they were Lemieux and Gretzky, what about the fact that in total there were 4 players who scored 150 Pts or more including Nichols who got 150 Pts. Find me another season in which 4 players got 150 Pts or more, you can`t. It was a ridiculously his scoring year. The NHL GPG overall (goals per game) was 7.48, there was almost 7.5 goals a game. Comparing Yzerman`s 155 Pts to Jagr`s. when Jagr scored 149 Pts, the NHL average 6.28 GPG, more than a whole goal less a game than when Yzerman scored 155 Pts. Yet Jagr managed to score only 6 points less. It also has been proven that Yzerman was terrible defensively then and being double shifted didn`t mean he was used for defense because then I can use that argument for Jagr. Jagr was almost double shifted in Pittsburgh from 1994-95 on and again in New York yet he was never a "Selke-like" forward.
Why do you have to jump in and hijack this and make it about Jagr? I asked for opinions on Yzerman, not Jagr. We all know you are obsessed about Jagr, if you want to talk about him make a thread to pimp him, thanks.

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12-11-2011, 01:51 AM
  #131
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So by that statement, you are basically saying yzerman would have rivaled jagr every year, in the deadpuck era?
Age and health being equal and not playing defense like Jagr didn't? Absolutely he would have and how you can laugh at that is beyond me.

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12-11-2011, 01:59 AM
  #132
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imo, it is hard to argue yzerman had a better peak.

jagr scored about as much in more difficult circumstances and with less TOI. he also controlled play in a way yzerman could not.
Did you watch the Wings in that period of time? Yzerman carried the play as good as anyone, if he hadn't the Wings would of been perennial cellar dwellers. He wasn't just counted on for offense, he was their offense.

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12-11-2011, 02:04 AM
  #133
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I think the "in the league of Gretzky and Lemieux" talk was clearly a case of the media trying to find the next "big one." If he really was close to their league, Canada finds a way for him to play, period.

I won't argue that he wasn't #3 behind them for a brief period of time.
Why would the Media be trying to find the next bog one at that point? Wayne and Mario weren't going anywhere at the point in anyones minds and there were other stars in the league also. You are just guessing at something without any basis.

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12-11-2011, 02:49 AM
  #134
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I grew up watching Yzerman and the Wings because my dad was a Wings fan... probably one of the greatest hockey players i've ever seen, and i don't even remember much. I do remember being amazed by his IQ and Leadership, etc.

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12-11-2011, 05:26 AM
  #135
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Why would the Media be trying to find the next bog one at that point? Wayne and Mario weren't going anywhere at the point in anyones minds and there were other stars in the league also. You are just guessing at something without any basis.
The media is ALWAYS trying to find the next story. That's Journalism 101; they can't sell you the same old story about Gretzky and Lemieux, so they'll sell you a new story on Yzerman and Lindros. Without even looking, I know there's a story out there asking if Kessel or Giroux are the next Crosby. The question then becomes: If Kessel and Giroux become HOFers, do people on HFBoards in the Year 2034 cite those articles as proof of their ascension to Crosby's level as early as 2011 the way people do for Yzerman in 1987-88? A little cynical perhaps, but that's my take on this.

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12-11-2011, 12:02 PM
  #136
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Yzerman cant be considered good because he played in the 80s

Lidstrom is overrated because he didnt have to play against 80s defenseman.


Which one is it HFboards?

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12-11-2011, 12:41 PM
  #137
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Yzerman cant be considered good because he played in the 80s

Lidstrom is overrated because he didnt have to play against 80s defenseman.


Which one is it HFboards?
It is certainly a bit of a logical issue, isn't it?

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12-11-2011, 12:47 PM
  #138
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It is certainly a bit of a logical issue, isn't it?
I think it's more of a straw man argument myself. I haven't seen anyone in this thread call Yzerman "not good."

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12-11-2011, 03:22 PM
  #139
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Yzerman cant be considered good because he played in the 80s

Lidstrom is overrated because he didnt have to play against 80s defenseman.


Which one is it HFboards?
There's a difference between being a good hockey player and being in the Gretzky/Lemieux exosphere.

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12-11-2011, 05:13 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Yzerman cant be considered good because he played in the 80s

Lidstrom is overrated because he didnt have to play against 80s defenseman.


Which one is it HFboards?
Neither, really. However in the case of Lidstrom it is pretty much accepted that he loses out on some of his Norrises if he is going head to head with a prime Coffey and Bourque. But I'm not sure we'd think all too differently of him anyway.

For Yzerman's case, don't be fooled, the 1980s were a very high water time for forwards. To even be considered the third best forward in the game after Mario and Wayne is an honour to even have your name brought up even if it has some controversy to it.

I do, however, remember a time when even for just a season or two, Yzerman was considered forward #3 in the NHL. It isn't looking back with rose coloured glasses either, I am doing it objectively. But to be objective as well, as good as he was in 1989, I don't put him higher than Jagr's best year. Not quite.

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