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The relationship between Ruff and Vanek

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Old
12-12-2011, 07:34 AM
  #26
HiddenInLight
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After all this time Ruff probably knows which buttons to push. You can't know what goes on in the locker room, but maybe Vanek responds best when the coach is being harsh. I don't know, you don't know. The only two who know are Ruff and Vanek.

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12-12-2011, 10:48 AM
  #27
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Given how hard Vanek is on HIMSELF, I would be stunned if he had a problem with his coach riding him.

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12-12-2011, 11:32 AM
  #28
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There is always a fine line in the way coaches can treat players. Vanek isn't a kid, he's a grown man with kids so from my perspective Ruff is out of line when he speaks to Vanek like he did in Philadelphia. Holding him accountable is one thing, treating him that way when guys like Stafford seem to get a free pass is not.

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12-12-2011, 11:33 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Given how hard Vanek is on HIMSELF, I would be stunned if he had a problem with his coach riding him.
Or maybe he's the kid with low self esteem whose dad always put him down.

Vanek with a different (read: the right) coach and different system would have been so much more. We'll never know, that's for sure.

And for those who are going to jump in to defend Lindy, please envision where Sidney Crosby would be today if the Sabres had won that lottery (and they had the same shot at Sid as the Pens did).

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12-12-2011, 11:44 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Or maybe he's the kid with low self esteem whose dad always put him down.

Vanek with a different (read: the right) coach and different system would have been so much more. We'll never know, that's for sure.
Yeah, he could have been Dany Heatley.....



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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
And for those who are going to jump in to defend Lindy, please envision where Sidney Crosby would be today if the Sabres had won that lottery (and they had the same shot at Sid as the Pens did).
Seriously?

Michel Therrien is a coach that is the benchmark for developing a young talent like Crosby?

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12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Or maybe he's the kid with low self esteem whose dad always put him down.

Vanek with a different (read: the right) coach and different system would have been so much more. We'll never know, that's for sure.

And for those who are going to jump in to defend Lindy, please envision where Sidney Crosby would be today if the Sabres had won that lottery (and they had the same shot at Sid as the Pens did).
What would Vanek have been with the right coach? If everyone agrees he's playing the best two-way hockey of his career, why are we so worried about their relationship?

DISCLAIMER: I've never been a huge Ruff guy, and I think things are sufficiently stale that he should be replaced. I'm just so tired of hearing about how everyone else holds Thomas back.

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12-12-2011, 12:05 PM
  #32
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Because there's always been a sense of conflict between Ruff and Vanek. When things didn't go well in years prior, Vanek would always be the guy Lindy would drop out of the top six in favor of a Mair or Kaleta. Roy never got that treatment. Pominville never got that treatment.

I don't think Vanek's upside is significantly higher than what he's shown this season, but I think that a different coach could certainly have brought this out of the guy sooner.

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12-12-2011, 12:07 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Because there's always been a sense of conflict between Ruff and Vanek. When things didn't go well in years prior, Vanek would always be the guy Lindy would drop out of the top six in favor of a Mair or Kaleta. Roy never got that treatment. Pominville never got that treatment.

I don't think Vanek's upside is significantly higher than what he's shown this season, but I think that a different coach could certainly have brought this out of the guy sooner.
That initial paragraph is just flat out wrong. Vanek hasn't been dropped in the offensive rotation for anyone since his second year when this team was stocked and he was basically getting 3rd line minutes.

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12-12-2011, 12:24 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
That initial paragraph is just flat out wrong. Vanek hasn't been dropped in the offensive rotation for anyone since his second year when this team was stocked and he was basically getting 3rd line minutes.
He's never been started in the bottom six aside from playing with Moore in 09 when Tom had the facemask, but Ruff's "mid game adjustment" for the longest time was to drop Vanek and promote Mair or a similar energy player.

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12-12-2011, 12:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Michel Therrien is a coach that is the benchmark for developing a young talent like Crosby?
You don't develop once-in-a-generation talent like Crosby. You get out of the way.

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12-12-2011, 02:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
He's never been started in the bottom six aside from playing with Moore in 09 when Tom had the facemask, but Ruff's "mid game adjustment" for the longest time was to drop Vanek and promote Mair or a similar energy player.
No. It was not. That ascertation is just flat out wrong.

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12-12-2011, 02:08 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
He's never been started in the bottom six aside from playing with Moore in 09 when Tom had the facemask, but Ruff's "mid game adjustment" for the longest time was to drop Vanek and promote Mair or a similar energy player.
This is beyond comical.

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12-12-2011, 02:10 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
You don't develop once-in-a-generation talent like Crosby. You get out of the way.
Therrien's "frank approach" to coaching wasn't to merely get out of Sid's way.

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12-12-2011, 02:11 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
No. It was not. That ascertation is just flat out wrong.
I do recall Ruff demoting Vanek mid-game in favor of players like Mair. It's been a couple years, but I'm fairly certain he's done it in the past.

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12-12-2011, 02:14 PM
  #40
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FWIW, no player is getting more ice time when you combine ES + PP TOI.

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12-12-2011, 02:15 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
I do recall Ruff demoting Vanek mid-game in favor of players like Mair. It's been a couple years, but I'm fairly certain he's done it in the past.
Since the co-captains left? Or with the implied regularity of this supposed deed? He's sat down a couple of guys for being tres suck at times but this sort of line of conversation leads to the inevitable "well, I saw on the internetz that Ruff benches Vanek for guys like Ellis when they need a goal" which is not actually true. He parked Leino on the bench for the third period of game just this year. A coach's primary weapon is icetime. Take dumb penalties or miss checking assignments, sit the **** down. That said, as someone with both mini-packs and DVR, where is this supposed regular benching of Vanek coming from? Really? Nope.

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12-12-2011, 02:23 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
FWIW, no player is getting more ice time when you combine ES + PP TOI.
Not surprised. He doesn't really demote him anymore. He just gives him an earful apparently.

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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Since the co-captains left? Or with the implied regularity of this supposed deed? He's sat down a couple of guys for being tres suck at times but this sort of line of conversation leads to the inevitable "well, I saw on the internetz that Ruff benches Vanek for guys like Ellis when they need a goal" which is not actually true. He parked Leino on the bench for the third period of game just this year. A coach's primary weapon is icetime. Take dumb penalties or miss checking assignments, sit the **** down. That said, as someone with both mini-packs and DVR, where is this supposed regular benching of Vanek coming from? Really? Nope.
I never said Ruff did it with regularity. I just know he's done it in the past. There have also been times Vanek isn't on the ice in the last minute of a game when we need a goal. Same thing happened with Boudreau and OV this year - sometimes that's just how it goes.

I just know that it has happened before. I'm sure Vanek knows that when he makes a mistake, his "punishment" - be it an earful from Ruff or a couple of shifts on the bench - is more so than what someone like Roy gets.

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12-12-2011, 02:36 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
No. It was not. That ascertation is just flat out wrong.
It's happened enough for it to be noticeable. I'm not saying that it happened all the time, but whenever the top six dropped a collective dud, Vanek was usually the first to catch heat for it in the form of being benched or demoted.

Edit- essentially what Luceni just said.

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12-12-2011, 03:10 PM
  #44
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Keep it civil folks

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12-12-2011, 03:43 PM
  #45
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Rereading my post, I guess I made it sound like Lindy was benching Tom every night he didn't perform. That wasn't the case and I never intended to make that point. My bad to whoever read it that way.

However, during the 4-5 games per season from about 07-10 where Lindy felt the need to shake up the top six (the ones in the middle of slumps where everyone wasn't clicking), Vanek was the one whose minutes were noticeably cut in favor of whichever of Ellis/Mair/Grier/etc got the promotion. That didn't happen to Lindy's default guys (Roy/Poms). Since then, Poms has clearly won the hierarchy, with Vanek improving/Roy regressing to a similar standing.

And Zip, to answer your question, I do think that Vanek's playing the best hockey of his career. I do think that this is roughly his ceiling. I also think that the potential for this level of play has been there for several seasons and that Vanek's current level of success has been through his natural evolution of a player rather than Lindy developing him.

I also think that holistically, Lindy needs to rely on Poms/Vanek more than he has. This lineup isn't deep enough to play its best guys only 14 minutes at ES the way Boston/Philly can.


Last edited by struckbyaparkedcar: 12-12-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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12-12-2011, 04:13 PM
  #46
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Weren't there times when Lindy's healthy scratched Vanek earlier in his career when he wasn't happy with Vanek? I'm at work, can't really research it. Just something I remember

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12-12-2011, 04:14 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
Weren't there times when Lindy's healthy scratched Vanek earlier in his career when he wasn't happy with Vanek? I'm at work, can't really research it. Just something I remember
I'm pretty sure the only time Vanek was a healthy scratch was late in his rookie season and throughout the playoffs as a rookie.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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12-12-2011, 04:54 PM
  #48
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I'm wondering if the perception/reality of Vanek being limited late in games (before these last couple of seasons) and Roy/Pominville not being as limited stems from the fact that Vanek's defensive ability has climbed massively the last couple of years. I don't think this team has been a team to eschew defense for offense (even when we think it would be needed) since the co-captains left, has it?

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12-12-2011, 07:00 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Or maybe he's the kid with low self esteem whose dad always put him down.

Vanek with a different (read: the right) coach and different system would have been so much more. We'll never know, that's for sure.

And for those who are going to jump in to defend Lindy, please envision where Sidney Crosby would be today if the Sabres had won that lottery (and they had the same shot at Sid as the Pens did).
what is that supposed to mean? are you suggesting that Crosby would not have been an elite player if Buffalo had drafted him? What basis do you have for saying that?

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12-12-2011, 07:26 PM
  #50
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what is that supposed to mean? are you suggesting that Crosby would not have been an elite player if Buffalo had drafted him? What basis do you have for saying that?
He probably would be, but I know one thing we certainly couldn't protect him.

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