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Old
12-12-2011, 01:22 PM
  #326
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Thought I would do the senior re-structuring in a different post to make it more clear.

I would leave the EIHL alone, it has its flaws and likely won't be around much longer but in terms of re-structuring its best left as it is. The rest of the leagues need changing though due to competitiveness and finances.

I would deduct Telford and Peterborough from the EPIHL since they are struggling right now, and set up an EPIHL 2 league, with the bigger teams from Division 1

So EPIHL 1 will have 8 teams, with the current 4 imports limit:
Guildford Flames
Slough Jets
Milton Keynes Lightning
Sheffield Steeldogs
Manchester Phoenix
Basingstoke Bison
Swindon Wildcats
Bracknell Bees

EPIHL 2 will also have 8 teams, with a 3 imports limit:
Peterborough Phantoms
Telford Tigers
Chelmsford Chieftains
Romford Raiders
Wightlink Raiders
Invicta Dynamos
Billingham Stars
Whitley Warriors

Have relegation and promotion between those two leagues, 1 up 1 down

Division 1 South will be left with 7 teams, and you could bring up Solent and Peterborough from division 2, so you would have 9 teams with the current 2 imports limit:
Cardiff ENL Devils
Bristol Pitbulls
Milton Keynes Thunder
Slough ENL1 Jets
Oxford Stars
Bracknell Hornets
Streatham Redskins
Solent Devils
Peterborough Islanders

Leave Division 2 South as it is but without the teams that have been brought up, since it has 13 teams at present.

For the North, integrate Division 1 with the Scottish National League, send a couple of teams to Division 2

Have promotion/relegation between Divisions 1 and 2 in both North and South

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12-12-2011, 03:20 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
In response to James Norris' question in the WJC Div1 thread, I'm going to talk about what is wrong with the current system and how I think it can be fixed.

A big problem for juniors is player numbers, we can solve this by extending the age groups:
Currently we have U10's, 12's, 14's, 16's and 18's.
I would change it to U10's, 13's, 16's and 19's.

This means there are more players in each age bracket, teams often have the problem of being short benched especially in the U18's and this fixes that.

It also can fix the problem of competitiveness, too often a team with a strong group of players gains promotion to the 'A' League, then all the good players move up to the next age group, resulting in the weaker group of players having to face much better teams and getting beat 20-0 every game. Obviously this is demoralising for the players and some end up quitting.

Extending age groups also means there are 4 junior teams at one club instead of 5, this results in more available ice time for practice and games. This also fixes the shortage of officials problem because there are less games to cover.

In the U19 league, players who are signed by the senior team should HAVE to play U19's as their first priority, only being allowed to play for the senior team when the U19's don't have a game. This increases the standard of the league, and benefits other players too because they will play with/against better opponents, and also fixes the player numbers problem.
I like the way you changed up the age groups. I don't know if forcing players to play U19 is the best way to go about it. If they're ready to play senior they should be up there playing senior. As for the senior restructure, I don't know enough about it & not to be a dick but I'm more worried about the player development at the grass roots level and the senior stuff doesn't matter so much to me.

Edit: With what you did with the age groups, it also cuts down the number of coaches which could be a good thing. Keeps coaches off the ice who don't know anything about coaching or hockey.

Would a National Development program work in Great Britain (Kind of like the USA program which has made large strides in the past 15 years)

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12-12-2011, 04:05 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
I like the way you changed up the age groups. I don't know if forcing players to play U19 is the best way to go about it. If they're ready to play senior they should be up there playing senior. As for the senior restructure, I don't know enough about it & not to be a dick but I'm more worried about the player development at the grass roots level and the senior stuff doesn't matter so much to me.

Edit: With what you did with the age groups, it also cuts down the number of coaches which could be a good thing. Keeps coaches off the ice who don't know anything about coaching or hockey.

Would a National Development program work in Great Britain (Kind of like the USA program which has made large strides in the past 15 years)
Maybe they shouldn't be forced but I think the U19's should have "first call" over them, it benefits everyone because it makes the standard higher. When I played 18's we had 2 guys who played for the EPIHL team and we only had them play for us when we needed them against the better teams, and the other teams did the same, it was a really good league and much better standard than it is now, and that was only back in 08/09.

I wasn't sure if you would care about the seniors but I thought I would complain about that too while I was having my rant about the juniors

A development program would never work IMO, there isn't enough funding for it and it would be too costly for the players if they had to travel to training every week, or a lot of them wouldn't want to move away and give up school since they're unlikely to make a decent living from hockey over here. The senior teams wouldn't like it either.

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12-12-2011, 04:34 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Maybe they shouldn't be forced but I think the U19's should have "first call" over them, it benefits everyone because it makes the standard higher. When I played 18's we had 2 guys who played for the EPIHL team and we only had them play for us when we needed them against the better teams, and the other teams did the same, it was a really good league and much better standard than it is now, and that was only back in 08/09.

I wasn't sure if you would care about the seniors but I thought I would complain about that too while I was having my rant about the juniors

A development program would never work IMO, there isn't enough funding for it and it would be too costly for the players if they had to travel to training every week, or a lot of them wouldn't want to move away and give up school since they're unlikely to make a decent living from hockey over here. The senior teams wouldn't like it either.
Like I said, I don't know much about the senior leagues but the only thing I think of when saying U19s should play U19s over senior league I think of Tony Hand being held back by a rule like that. The seniors doesn't seem like amazing talent so a young player going there can't really hurt them much unless the coach is **** lol

I agree about the development program bit. The USA development program pretty much guarantees you an NCAA scholarship, can't really do that in Great Britain. I wish I could see first hand what was wrong with the system over there. Are coaches knowledgeable (Not just hockey knowledge but also coaching knowledge)? Who exactly is the governing body for minor hockey in GB? Is that governing body actually interested in improving their system or satisfied with the **** job they've been doing lol. Is there any chance of getting more funding for hockey programs?
So many questions

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12-12-2011, 05:05 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
Like I said, I don't know much about the senior leagues but the only thing I think of when saying U19s should play U19s over senior league I think of Tony Hand being held back by a rule like that. The seniors doesn't seem like amazing talent so a young player going there can't really hurt them much unless the coach is **** lol

I agree about the development program bit. The USA development program pretty much guarantees you an NCAA scholarship, can't really do that in Great Britain. I wish I could see first hand what was wrong with the system over there. Are coaches knowledgeable (Not just hockey knowledge but also coaching knowledge)? Who exactly is the governing body for minor hockey in GB? Is that governing body actually interested in improving their system or satisfied with the **** job they've been doing lol. Is there any chance of getting more funding for hockey programs?
So many questions
Since the juniors don't play many games anyway they wouldn't be missing out on many senior games.

I've always had good coaches because I came through the Swindon system, which was regarded as one of the best, they've consistently sent teams to nationals. It used to attract a lot players from other clubs to come and play for us, my U18 team that went to the national final in 08/09 only had 7 players (including me) who were actually from Swindon! Their teams aren't doing so good this year though.

I'm a goalie and I play in Division 2, we have a player/coach and I listen to everything he says before games even though I don't need to, and I've learnt so much more about the game and playing strategies just from listening to him. However as a referee I've certainly come across my fair share of bad coaches.

The EIHA (English Ice Hockey Association) is the governing body that controls everything from EPIHL level and below. You're absolutely spot on, they do seem to be satisfied with the **** job they've been doing, they seem to like just keeping the status quo. Apparently according to their financial accounts, they've got 250k sitting in the bank doing nothing, or so I've heard.

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12-12-2011, 06:29 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Since the juniors don't play many games anyway they wouldn't be missing out on many senior games.
As we both agree, there should be more games played by junior teams. I like it in certain situations but if it's better for a kid to be playing vs. men, he should be playing vs. men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I've always had good coaches because I came through the Swindon system, which was regarded as one of the best, they've consistently sent teams to nationals. It used to attract a lot players from other clubs to come and play for us, my U18 team that went to the national final in 08/09 only had 7 players (including me) who were actually from Swindon! Their teams aren't doing so good this year though.
I just want to clarify that I don't mean to sound like a dick here lol
Sometimes you think you have a good coach but really what you had was team success. There's a lot more to being a good coach than just going to nationals. I have no idea what the coaching situation is like over there, if it's just parents volunteering or if they have a ton of very qualified and educated people but they haven't had much success (Developing athletes) so I have to think something is missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I'm a goalie and I play in Division 2, we have a player/coach and I listen to everything he says before games even though I don't need to, and I've learnt so much more about the game and playing strategies just from listening to him. However as a referee I've certainly come across my fair share of bad coaches.
Good to hear youth in GB are getting into refereeing. It teaches you a lot about the game and really gives players a new found respect for game officials lol I say this but in minor hockey I was playing a game and I got in a fight with a linesman who I knew from refereeing

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
The EIHA (English Ice Hockey Association) is the governing body that controls everything from EPIHL level and below. You're absolutely spot on, they do seem to be satisfied with the **** job they've been doing, they seem to like just keeping the status quo. Apparently according to their financial accounts, they've got 250k sitting in the bank doing nothing, or so I've heard.
This intrigues me a bit. How can EIHA be sold on changing their system? I'm not asking you directly but you may have some more insight. I know I would have a lot of interest in trying to convince the EIHA in changing their ways lol

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12-12-2011, 06:45 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
I just want to clarify that I don't mean to sound like a dick here lol
Sometimes you think you have a good coach but really what you had was team success. There's a lot more to being a good coach than just going to nationals. I have no idea what the coaching situation is like over there, if it's just parents volunteering or if they have a ton of very qualified and educated people but they haven't had much success (Developing athletes) so I have to think something is missing.
The coaching overall is a reason we had team success, like I said half of the team came from other clubs to play in our system because the coaching was good. You will notice it is the same clubs who produce the talented players year after year, Sheffield being the best. It isn't because there's something in the water there

A lot of the coaches are parents, but they do have to have necessary qualifications to be able to do it. And it's often the case that the parent was a player before the kid was born, and they got them into hockey.

IMO it's not the coaches fault we aren't developing talent, its the infrastructure and all the stuff I've talked about before. The main problem being it's impossible for most people to actually play the game since there are hardly any rinks and its expensive.

I don't know what goes on behind the doors at the EIHA, I know they have a meeting with all the clubs every off season to talk about stuff. I think it's just a case of it would be far too much effort to make any changes

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12-12-2011, 07:00 PM
  #333
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Slovenia are the next Denmark/Latvia. Improving very quickly.

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12-12-2011, 07:07 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
The coaching overall is a reason we had team success, like I said half of the team came from other clubs to play in our system because the coaching was good. You will notice it is the same clubs who produce the talented players year after year, Sheffield being the best. It isn't because there's something in the water there
A lot of the coaches are parents, but they do have to have necessary qualifications to be able to do it. And it's often the case that the parent was a player before the kid was born, and they got them into hockey.
But the coaching overall in GB seems flawed. Again not to be a dick but your coaching may have seemed good but it still may not have exactly been the best if you know what I'm trying to say I know I've had coaches in the past that I thought were amazing but in retrospect, knowing what I know now about coaching, they never got the most out of us and never really instilled much in us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
IMO it's not the coaches fault we aren't developing talent, its the infrastructure and all the stuff I've talked about before. The main problem being it's impossible for most people to actually play the game since there are hardly any rinks and its expensive.

I don't know what goes on behind the doors at the EIHA, I know they have a meeting with all the clubs every off season to talk about stuff. I think it's just a case of it would be far too much effort to make any changes
I'm not saying everything is on the coaching but no way you can tell me the coaching can't be improved

Here are a few interesting stats I found:
Great Britain
Total Players: 4,901
Junior Players: 3,153
Indoor Rinks: 46

Belarus
Total Players: 4,374
Junior Players: 3,430
Indoor Rinks: 28

Norway
Total Players:6,177
Junior Players: 3,709
Indoor Rinks: 41

Player to rink ratio can't be the only explanation lol

Sounds like EIHA needs to be convinced that they should change their system or sink some more money into the problems they currently have.

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12-12-2011, 07:11 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Slovenia are the next Denmark/Latvia. Improving very quickly.
Slovenia's player numbers and rink
Total Players: 943
Junior Players: 700
Indoor Rinks: 8

How is Kopitar from there?!?!?!

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12-13-2011, 05:06 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
But the coaching overall in GB seems flawed. Again not to be a dick but your coaching may have seemed good but it still may not have exactly been the best if you know what I'm trying to say I know I've had coaches in the past that I thought were amazing but in retrospect, knowing what I know now about coaching, they never got the most out of us and never really instilled much in us.




I'm not saying everything is on the coaching but no way you can tell me the coaching can't be improved

Here are a few interesting stats I found:
Great Britain
Total Players: 4,901
Junior Players: 3,153
Indoor Rinks: 46

Belarus
Total Players: 4,374
Junior Players: 3,430
Indoor Rinks: 28

Norway
Total Players:6,177
Junior Players: 3,709
Indoor Rinks: 41

Player to rink ratio can't be the only explanation lol

Sounds like EIHA needs to be convinced that they should change their system or sink some more money into the problems they currently have.
Of course coaching can be improved, but the way you say it makes it sound like it is really bad. It has certainly vastly improved over the years, gone are the days when our national team was filled with dual-national Canadians, and we've managed to stay competitive in Div1 without them.

As for Belarus and Norway, we don't have the cold winter sports culture that they do, kids in Norway can probably play pond hockey. Our population is roughly 60 million, Belarus is around 10 million, and Norway is around 5 million, so when you look at it that way they have a much higher participation rate. The number of rinks doesn't tell the true story since most of Norway's land mass is tundra and uninhabitable so the rinks could all be in the big cities and towns, same for Belarus because if my geography is correct it is mostly forest land with very few cities.

IMO there will be change once the EIHL collapses which could happen soon since two of the teams have recently announced they're ****ed to put it bluntly

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12-13-2011, 07:53 AM
  #337
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^^
My only input on the subject is.............
Sometimes in our push to develop the elite athlete in almost any sport is that we forget that we are talking about kids.
We squeeze the system like a pimple into ever decreasing numbers to give the elites the the top competition at the cost that kids don't have any fun.
In most G-20 countries sports participation by kids is decreasing or stagnating.
When was the last time you just saw kids playing at your local park, rink, pond, court or field playing a game organized by themselves, policed by themselves just for the sake of having fun?
These are the games where kids learn by themselves and develop skills.
Yes coaching and structure is important but are you losing the part where sports should be fun?
End of rant on youth sports.

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12-13-2011, 08:39 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
^^
My only input on the subject is.............
Sometimes in our push to develop the elite athlete in almost any sport is that we forget that we are talking about kids.
We squeeze the system like a pimple into ever decreasing numbers to give the elites the the top competition at the cost that kids don't have any fun.
In most G-20 countries sports participation by kids is decreasing or stagnating.
When was the last time you just saw kids playing at your local park, rink, pond, court or field playing a game organized by themselves, policed by themselves just for the sake of having fun?
These are the games where kids learn by themselves and develop skills.
Yes coaching and structure is important but are you losing the part where sports should be fun?
End of rant on youth sports.
A lot of that is due to the recent ************* of society, and the media scare mongering of child molesters and paedophiles, so parent's don't let their kids play out as much. Kids also have stuff like xbox now.

But that is a whole different topic.

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12-13-2011, 08:49 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
Slovenia's player numbers and rink
Total Players: 943
Junior Players: 700
Indoor Rinks: 8

How is Kopitar from there?!?!?!
Slovenia is a tiny country, they only have 8 rinks because there's nowhere to put them. If my geography is again correct they only have 2 cities, Ljubljana and somewhere else. The population is only just above 2 million. 943 out of 2 million is about 4% participation rate, compared to less than 1% in GB. Belarus also have around 4% participation rate according to IIHF website figures, which also answers your other post

Of course Kopitar is a statistical anomaly who is incredibly naturally talented, as was Tony hand. An argument could be, a country like GB misses out on the most naturally athletically gifted kids in our sport because they do not have access to it and choose other sports. Obviously British kids would rather be a professional football player. Whereas places like Canada do get all the most naturally talented players because hockey is part of the culture.
My old Sports Studies teacher used to think of Pro athletes as "freaks of nature" so if you took someone like David Beckham for instance, and brought him up as a hockey player instead of football, he could have gone pro in that instead. I always used to think; why aren't USA any good at rugby, when they have all these massive or fast American Football players? The answer being hardly anyone chooses to play rugby, because the NFL is obvioulsy king in USA. I know that example is a little different since those two sports are more similar, but it's the same theory.


Last edited by Propane Nightmares: 12-13-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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12-13-2011, 09:16 AM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
^^
My only input on the subject is.............
Sometimes in our push to develop the elite athlete in almost any sport is that we forget that we are talking about kids.
We squeeze the system like a pimple into ever decreasing numbers to give the elites the the top competition at the cost that kids don't have any fun.
In most G-20 countries sports participation by kids is decreasing or stagnating.
When was the last time you just saw kids playing at your local park, rink, pond, court or field playing a game organized by themselves, policed by themselves just for the sake of having fun?
These are the games where kids learn by themselves and develop skills.
Yes coaching and structure is important but are you losing the part where sports should be fun?
End of rant on youth sports.
And by no surprise, when I said good coaches, it was misinterpreted lol

A good coach isn't the guy that leads his team to nationals every year. It's the guy that can make playing the sport fun enough for his players that they stick with it while developing them as athletes and people. I know in Canada, your average minor hockey coach still doesn't know how to make proper use of ice time(practice/games). I remember playing hockey in Canada and during practices we'd spend 3 quarters of the time in lines waiting to do a 15 second drill and while you stand around, you aren't allowed to touch the pucks lol. Who learns from that? They say if you practice like you play then you'll play like you practice so I was taught to stand around and not touch pucks

A lot of coaches still use physical activities as punishment (pushups or laps for making errors). That's so counterproductive lol forcing kids to get stronger or practice their skating against their will isn't going to lead them into an active life style.

So many little things like this go into being a good coach. Your team record doesn't have anything to do with being a good coach at the grass roots level.

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12-13-2011, 09:44 AM
  #341
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And by no surprise, when I said good coaches, it was misinterpreted lol

A good coach isn't the guy that leads his team to nationals every year. It's the guy that can make playing the sport fun enough for his players that they stick with it while developing them as athletes and people. I know in Canada, your average minor hockey coach still doesn't know how to make proper use of ice time(practice/games). I remember playing hockey in Canada and during practices we'd spend 3 quarters of the time in lines waiting to do a 15 second drill and while you stand around, you aren't allowed to touch the pucks lol. Who learns from that? They say if you practice like you play then you'll play like you practice so I was taught to stand around and not touch pucks

A lot of coaches still use physical activities as punishment (pushups or laps for making errors). That's so counterproductive lol forcing kids to get stronger or practice their skating against their will isn't going to lead them into an active life style.

So many little things like this go into being a good coach. Your team record doesn't have anything to do with being a good coach at the grass roots level.
I agree with all of this.

Just curious, are you actually British and moved to Canada at a young age?

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12-13-2011, 09:50 AM
  #342
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I agree with all of this.

Just curious, are you actually British and moved to Canada at a young age?
Nope lol just Canadian who cheers for GB hockey. Big fan of Tony Hand (Recently found out I have the same birthday as him lol) I do have Scottish roots

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12-13-2011, 10:06 AM
  #343
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Nope lol just Canadian who cheers for GB hockey. Big fan of Tony Hand (Recently found out I have the same birthday as him lol) I do have Scottish roots
I recently read his book, it was really interesting.

Have you ever been to GB? If not it's definitely worth a visit so you can see Tony play, and could also catch a couple of junior games to see what it's like for yourself

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12-13-2011, 10:24 AM
  #344
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I recently read his book, it was really interesting.

Have you ever been to GB? If not it's definitely worth a visit so you can see Tony play, and could also catch a couple of junior games to see what it's like for yourself
Being a student right now, I don't think I'll get over to see Hand play unless he goes into his 50's I've been trying to get my hands on Hands book for a while now but as expected it isn't all over the place in Canada lol

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12-13-2011, 10:28 AM
  #345
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Being a student right now, I don't think I'll get over to see Hand play unless he goes into his 50's I've been trying to get my hands on Hands book for a while now but as expected it isn't all over the place in Canada lol
Well Steve Moria the player/coach of Basingstoke Bison will turn 51 this season and he's still going strong, so it's possible

You can get his book here: http://www.amazon.com/Tony-Hand-Life...3790069&sr=8-4

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12-13-2011, 10:43 AM
  #346
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Do you have any idea why Okanagan Hockey Academy draws british imports? According to Eliteprospects.com there are 3 but I remember seeing more than that on their old site.

And I'm definitely going to look into getting that book. I've been wanting it for 3 years lol

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12-13-2011, 10:46 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by James Norris View Post
Do you have any idea why Okanagan Hockey Academy draws british imports? According to Eliteprospects.com there are 3 but I remember seeing more than that on their old site.

And I'm definitely going to look into getting that book. I've been wanting it for 3 years lol
Okanagan runs hockey schools here, so we have links with them

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12-13-2011, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Okanagan runs hockey schools here, so we have links with them
That's really interesting. Do these players project to actually develop into helpful players for GB in the future (U-18's, U-20's, WC, etc.) or are they just a lucky few that could afford to make the move to NA?

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12-13-2011, 11:09 AM
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That's really interesting. Do these players project to actually develop into helpful players for GB in the future (U-18's, U-20's, WC, etc.) or are they just a lucky few that could afford to make the move to NA?
None of this years U20's have played there, a few of them have played for Ontario Hockey Academy though

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12-13-2011, 11:23 AM
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None of this years U20's have played there, a few of them have played for Ontario Hockey Academy though
I mean kids like Sam Jones and Scott Robinson. Were they top players over in England before coming over to OHA or are they just there because they could?

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