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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:13 PM
  #26
LyleOdelein
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Hickey was trying to make a valid point (that Kennedy is a relatively unappreciated hero in this situation), but failed in making that clear through his lack of tact as a journalist.

He decided to take on a touchy subject with no sensitivity to, or understanding of how victims of abuse respond to their situations. The fact that Hickey has no idea that different victims will respond differently to abuse shows that he is grossly ignorant about the topic to the point that he really shouldn't have tried to voice his opinion on it in a public forum

Kennedy doesn't need any comparison with Fleury for his actions to shine brightly and be viewed as brave and heroic. Hickey couldn't realize this and ruined what was a great angle for a story.

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12-12-2011, 10:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
Considering how 'damaged' Fleury has been over the years, it's not much of a stretch to think that he either was a) in full denial b) in a near-catatonic state c) too ****ed up to realize what was going on.
Can it even be some form of Stockholm Syndrome?

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:15 PM
  #28
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What are they mad at? Saying that James deserve hard time? Or that Fleury is being an hypocrite, which is true? This quote says it all.
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
To call someone an hypocrite because he is scared or confused and hasn't spoken out or denounce the man, is quite moronic. It actually shows very little sensitivity towards the victim.
Some people go through their whole lives without coming forward with such a heavy news.

Calling Fleury a hypocrite is just plain stupid.

Warrant a firing? Probably not, but still very dumb, and still don't know why one would even think to write such a piece. There are much better ways to show respect to Kennedy.

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12-12-2011, 10:15 PM
  #29
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Don't forget he was a substance abuser
I was alluding to that too. Lots of layers of ****.

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12-12-2011, 10:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Hickey was trying to make a valid point (that Kennedy is a relatively unappreciated hero in this situation), but failed in making that clear through his lack of tact as a journalist.
This.

Understand what he was trying to say but came across very poorly

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12-12-2011, 10:18 PM
  #31
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I'm no expert, but I think the abuser/victim relationship is a hell of a lot more complicated than what Hickey's suggesting here. Just look at the Mike Danton case for more evidence of that in hockey.

I suppose Hickey is raising a valid point, but I think he's doing it in a pretty crass way. I'm not so sure he should be fired for it, however.

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12-12-2011, 10:19 PM
  #32
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Pat Hickey has always been a friend and helped us out on our site, but that was WAY over the line.

The Gazette should pull that right away. If not, I'm boycotting HIO

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:20 PM
  #33
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Sheldon Kennedy is the undoubted hero here. But I think Fleury would be the first person to say that. I don't know why Hickey saw the need to write this article and pass judgment on Fleury...I really don't. How he could possibly think that he could understand what Fleury went through and what kept him quiet is beyond me, and frankly the fact that he even came forward at all is courageous.

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12-12-2011, 10:22 PM
  #34
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Maybe someone at The Gazette screwed up?

The more I think about it, the more this feels like something written by Jack Todd

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12-12-2011, 10:23 PM
  #35
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After reading that piece, I think its overblown.

The last paragraph was a bit harsh, but I didnt read anything outrageous.
These are my sentiments exactly. I mean, you can't exactly say he is wrong. He just could have gone about saying it in a more polite manner.

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12-12-2011, 10:27 PM
  #36
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My question is how did the Gazette allow this to be posted? Its devils advocate but a really piss poor way of doing it from a pretty reputable journalist. Hes not going to be winning any fans after this one tahts for sure.

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12-12-2011, 10:36 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
Fleury had not been through any counselling when he was allegedly an "enabler". He was a completely lost soul who was higher than a kite all the time and considering suicide.

Garbage article by Hickey. If anything, Hickey is an enabler for bashing a victim who endured horrific crimes and is now trying to do something about it. Fleury went through something that nobody in this world should ever have to go through.

Time for Hickey to call it a career and be replaced by someone more in tune with the times.

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12-12-2011, 10:40 PM
  #38
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Sports writing and politics aren't written same way. It came off as harsh but Pat just wanted to say, "look, we can blame everybody else here, but when something's wrong we need to step up like kennedy did then justice will be served."

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:42 PM
  #39
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Read the article and I don't think a lot of people read it correctly. Hickey says himself that Fleury should not have had to go through that. The tone is a little unapologetic, but essentially he is making the point that Fleury chose to stay silent for his career, ostensibly (which is totally fine), but Kennedy, having many problems devoted himself to putting James in the defendant seat. No one is to blame for that, although Kennedy should be seen as a courageous person (not taking anything away from Fleury), but what struck me as odd, which Pat points out is that Fleury HIRED the guy to be the coach of his team!!! The first word that comes to mind honestly is, hypocrite IF Fleury is charging others with keeping sex offenders away from kids. It's just a ridiculous situation, but because Fleury can twist it to make it sound like Hickey is talking about Fleury's reaction/silence to being abused, it makes PH look like he's violating a sacred line.

Fact: Fleury allowed the person who assaulted him sexually to coach the team he owned.
Fact: He accused the govt of not protecting children from such people

what does that say? I'm sure Hickey didn't mean it the way it's being interpreted, but this will become a media circus and people who don't want to analyze the argument will stop at "child abuse" and not read the details. I would hate for Pat to leave his job and what I'm saying isn't biased. I read the article. It's the hiring part that really struck me. Maybe Hickey should have known that subtleties are going to be missed when dealing with such a taboo topic.

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12-12-2011, 10:44 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Sports writing and politics aren't written same way. It came off as harsh but Pat just wanted to say, "look, we can blame everybody else here, but when something's wrong we need to step up like kennedy did then justice will be served."
Theres what is trying to be said, and then theres how it is delivered.

Pat Hickey might have had the best intentions in the world, but for a Journalist with his experience and know how it was poorly conveyed, and that is what he will be paying the price for.


Will he get fired? Probably not, but he'll hear the wrath of which he has called forth, by publishing this article.

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:44 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Sports writing and politics aren't written same way. It came off as harsh but Pat just wanted to say, "look, we can blame everybody else here, but when something's wrong we need to step up like kennedy did then justice will be served."
What in the world does Pat Hickey know about being the victim of sex crimes? It's a little bit different than having your car vandalized in Philly.

Time to call it a career. And to think Hickey questions Fleury's judgment.

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12-12-2011, 10:45 PM
  #42
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Calling for Hickey's job like Fleury did on twitter to his followers, puts him right along with hickey in my humble opinion. but hey, what do I know?

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Old
12-12-2011, 10:47 PM
  #43
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Sheldon Kennedy is the undoubted hero here. But I think Fleury would be the first person to say that. I don't know why Hickey saw the need to write this article and pass judgment on Fleury...I really don't. How he could possibly think that he could understand what Fleury went through and what kept him quiet is beyond me, and frankly the fact that he even came forward at all is courageous.
I think we all agree with each other on some level - that the piece was clumsily written, but let me paint this scenario (not that this is the case)

If you had a kid who was playing for James who was hired by Fleury who blasted others for not protecting kids...would you be pissed at Fleury? Probably even MORE given what he himself has been through. It's possible that PH was more aghast at that scenario and tbh if I was one of those kids parents', I'd crucify Fleury. It's awful what happened to him, but to potentially allow it to happen to others. I don't know the full story apparently, cuz I don't know how THAT was allowed to happen.

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12-12-2011, 10:48 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Read the article and I don't think a lot of people read it correctly. Hickey says himself that Fleury should not have had to go through that. The tone is a little unapologetic, but essentially he is making the point that Fleury chose to stay silent for his career, ostensibly (which is totally fine), but Kennedy, having many problems devoted himself to putting James in the defendant seat. No one is to blame for that, although Kennedy should be seen as a courageous person (not taking anything away from Fleury), but what struck me as odd, which Pat points out is that Fleury HIRED the guy to be the coach of his team!!! The first word that comes to mind honestly is, hypocrite IF Fleury is charging others with keeping sex offenders away from kids. It's just a ridiculous situation, but because Fleury can twist it to make it sound like Hickey is talking about Fleury's reaction/silence to being abused, it makes PH look like he's violating a sacred line.

Fact: Fleury allowed the person who assaulted him sexually to coach the team he owned.
Fact: He accused the govt of not protecting children from such people

what does that say? I'm sure Hickey didn't mean it the way it's being interpreted, but this will become a media circus and people who don't want to analyze the argument will stop at "child abuse" and not read the details. I would hate for Pat to leave his job and what I'm saying isn't biased. I read the article. It's the hiring part that really struck me. Maybe Hickey should have known that subtleties are going to be missed when dealing with such a taboo topic.
well said, tried to say so myself, unfortunately , perhaps it didn't come across the same way

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12-12-2011, 10:49 PM
  #45
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Mr. Hickey should apologize immediately. I'd expect this kind of crap from Jack Todd but Hickey's always seemed pretty level headed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.
Come on man...
Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Read the article and I don't think a lot of people read it correctly. Hickey says himself that Fleury should not have had to go through that. The tone is a little unapologetic, but essentially he is making the point that Fleury chose to stay silent for his career, ostensibly (which is totally fine), but Kennedy, having many problems devoted himself to putting James in the defendant seat. No one is to blame for that, although Kennedy should be seen as a courageous person (not taking anything away from Fleury), but what struck me as odd, which Pat points out is that Fleury HIRED the guy to be the coach of his team!!! The first word that comes to mind honestly is, hypocrite IF Fleury is charging others with keeping sex offenders away from kids. It's just a ridiculous situation, but because Fleury can twist it to make it sound like Hickey is talking about Fleury's reaction/silence to being abused, it makes PH look like he's violating a sacred line.

Fact: Fleury allowed the person who assaulted him sexually to coach the team he owned.
Fact: He accused the govt of not protecting children from such people
Hammering Fleury (who was victimized as a teen) for not speaking out earlier is reprehensible.

Victims of abuse respond differently from what happened to them. They do not deserve to be slammed the way Hickey has done in this article. To me this is way over the line. It's one thing to encourage victims to speak out, it's another thing to hammer them for not doing so. Even if Hickey is right on the facts, he should've let common sense prevail here and been much more careful with his words.

"Wrong messenger?" "Hypocrite?" Strong words from somebody who's probably never experienced the kind of abuse Fleury had to endure. Mr. Hickey should've exhibited much more sensitivity and good judgement here.
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I think we all agree with each other on some level - that the piece was clumsily written, but let me paint this scenario (not that this is the case)

If you had a kid who was playing for James who was hired by Fleury who blasted others for not protecting kids...would you be pissed at Fleury? Probably even MORE given what he himself has been through. It's possible that PH was more aghast at that scenario and tbh if I was one of those kids parents', I'd crucify Fleury. It's awful what happened to him, but to potentially allow it to happen to others. I don't know the full story apparently, cuz I don't know how THAT was allowed to happen.
No. If (God forbid) that ever happened to one of my children I would absolutely not blame the victims. There's ONE guy who's at fault here and he should've been in jail for a long time now.

Victims react in different ways, there's no way that we should be blaming somebody for not having the courage to come out with this. You're blaming the wrong guy here.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-12-2011 at 10:59 PM.
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Old
12-12-2011, 10:52 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I think we all agree with each other on some level - that the piece was clumsily written, but let me paint this scenario (not that this is the case)

If you had a kid who was playing for James who was hired by Fleury who blasted others for not protecting kids...would you be pissed at Fleury? Probably even MORE given what he himself has been through. It's possible that PH was more aghast at that scenario and tbh if I was one of those kids parents', I'd crucify Fleury. It's awful what happened to him, but to potentially allow it to happen to others. I don't know the full story apparently, cuz I don't know how THAT was allowed to happen.
Fleury probably had his reasons, try putting yourself in the head of a sexually abused victim? You think its a coincidence that Fleury hired James? and that he had no link or connection to what happened to him? Give me a break.

Theres thousands of cases where the victims are often intimidated and downright feel a sense of dominance over them from the abuser, so call it what you want but Fleury was the victim, and regardless of his age, he still had to overcome that obstacle, whether he did the right decisions as a human being is one thing but the disregard for what he went through is abit disturbing.

Further more maybe Fleury was being blackmailed? Just a thought.

I can play devil's advocate all night, but the point is you can't possibly understand what was going on in Fleury's head at the time.

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12-12-2011, 10:53 PM
  #47
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Theres what is trying to be said, and then theres how it is delivered.

Pat Hickey might have had the best intentions in the world, but for a Journalist with his experience and know how it was poorly conveyed, and that is what he will be paying the price for.


Will he get fired? Probably not, but he'll hear the wrath of which he has called forth, by publishing this article.
I agree with you, like I said sports =/ politics. It was a bad move IMO. He may have meant well but came off harsh. The article was blunt as if it's a hockey statistic, opinionated and not really factual. If you're gonna make a claim like that, please have more than a little logic behind it.

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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
What in the world does Pat Hickey know about being the victim of sex crimes? It's a little bit different than having your car vandalized in Philly.

Time to call it a career. And to think Hickey questions Fleury's judgment.
Never said he did know but article aside, is it wrong to say justice is served when the crime is known? Unforunately, Fleury waited and this guy got a pardon. Am i blaming fleury? hell no. Just saying, the guy admitted fleury was okay to keep it secluded, and that it was understandable, he just said "don't blame legal system when you let him walk away". In a sense, it is hypocritical of fleury? I don't blame him though but it's kind of odd. If Fleury would've came forward earlier rather than just kennedy, this would've never happened. Again, I don't blame fleury and respect his choice but Hickey tried to relate the fact if you don't come forward, the justice system can't act and you can't blame them. It's an obvious and factual statement, but it's in bad taste to bring it up IMO. Everyone knows, but you just don't say it.

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12-12-2011, 10:55 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Mr. Hickey should apologize immediately. I'd expect this kind of crap from Jack Todd but Hickey's always seemed pretty level headed.

Come on man...

Hammering Fleury who was victimized for not speaking out earlier is reprehensible.

Victims of abuse respond differently from what happened to them. They do not deserve to be slammed the way Hickey has done in this article. To me this is way over the line.
He didn't do that. Read again. He didn't.

He called him a hypocrite for allowing the scourge to permeate when it was Kennedy who really uncovered the damage. Fleury said nothing, then blamed people for not stopping it, then essentially enabled it. That's what Hickey DID say was reprehensible. He NEVER blamed him for not saying anything initially.

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12-12-2011, 10:55 PM
  #49
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Personally I think Pat is trying to say, as a victim (Fleury) why would he purchase a team with James and allow him to coach kids knowing what he did to him and other players.

He respects Kennedy for stepping up, and trying to stop it, he understands and feels for Theo, but also knows he could have severed all ties to James.

I also think he sees Fleury as blaming the justice system, but the saying the system would have worked better if Theo would have cam forward with Kennedy.

An apology from Hickey and the Gazette is needed, not a burning at the stake like a witch.

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12-12-2011, 10:56 PM
  #50
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Read the article and I don't think a lot of people read it correctly. Hickey says himself that Fleury should not have had to go through that. The tone is a little unapologetic, but essentially he is making the point that Fleury chose to stay silent for his career, ostensibly (which is totally fine), but Kennedy, having many problems devoted himself to putting James in the defendant seat. No one is to blame for that, although Kennedy should be seen as a courageous person (not taking anything away from Fleury), but what struck me as odd, which Pat points out is that Fleury HIRED the guy to be the coach of his team!!! The first word that comes to mind honestly is, hypocrite IF Fleury is charging others with keeping sex offenders away from kids. It's just a ridiculous situation, but because Fleury can twist it to make it sound like Hickey is talking about Fleury's reaction/silence to being abused, it makes PH look like he's violating a sacred line.

Fact: Fleury allowed the person who assaulted him sexually to coach the team he owned.
Fact: He accused the govt of not protecting children from such people

what does that say? I'm sure Hickey didn't mean it the way it's being interpreted, but this will become a media circus and people who don't want to analyze the argument will stop at "child abuse" and not read the details. I would hate for Pat to leave his job and what I'm saying isn't biased. I read the article. It's the hiring part that really struck me. Maybe Hickey should have known that subtleties are going to be missed when dealing with such a taboo topic.
I've read it and I've analyzed it. Hickey's facts are correct but this is not a black or white issue that anyone should pass judgment on against a victim of such horrific crimes. Fleury was a complete mess and a lost soul (because of James) when for whatever reason he was part owner of a team that James coached. Are you saying the abuser/victim relationship is clearcut and not complex? Somebody else mentioned David Frost/Mike Danton (there is the entire Brampton Four clan for that matter who have all defended Frost in cult-like fashion). Fleury should also not be called a hypocrite for going after the justice system now instead of doing it when he was in a horrible place mentally as a result of being victim to horrific crimes.

Hickey is showing his age here. He's the one with horrible judgment.

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