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Hollweg or Hossa.... (merged)

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Old
12-04-2005, 02:04 PM
  #76
Nemchinov13
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TB, if this isn't a true rebuild like Fletch says, then I would agree with you that Hossa has been the most useless forward and yes, he would deserve to sit once Ruca comes back. However, if we our primary goal is to rebuild and wins are just an added bonus, then sit Neimo who is currently playing on the 2nd line. So, the question remains whether or not we want to rebuild.

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12-04-2005, 02:09 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13
if we our primary goal is to rebuild and wins are just an added bonus
I think there's a lot of evidence to show the Rangers do not feel that rebuilding is first and wins are just a bonus. Jaromir Jagr's ice time is probably proof enough.

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12-04-2005, 03:25 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
you said something important: 'These are the growing pains of a rebuild I'm afraid'. The question is, is this a rebuild? When we saw Straka and Rucinsky signed, and Rucchin, we said, there's room for one offensive forward in a top 6 role, and this team arguably may have two or even three that teams in a rebuild would play (Immonen, Prucha and Hossa). But, this isn't a rebuild. It's a rebuild in the sense that it was the past seven seasons - the main difference is the horses the coach relies on (Jagr & Co.) and goaltending have been stellar - which helped breed hard work from the bottom two lines to not hurt the Rangers and often help. In a true rebuild, we wouldn't be talking about Hossa and possibly sitting (and if this was Prucha, we'd say the same thing), as he would go through these growing pains. This isn't a true rebuild.
It might not be evident now, but in 30 games from now when we're 8 under .500 you bet it'll be a rebuild.

I think Renney's actions in the coming few weeks will truly tell the story. At this point our debates really have nothing to do with the reality of whether it is a rebuild or not. The fact that we're discussing Hossa being benched, to me, signals more the impatience of Ranger faithful than it does the true stage of the team life cycle that the Rangers are currently in.

But, until then I'm still content to call it a rebuild, and what we've seen here more as capitalizing on ill-prepared, poor hockey clubs. We caught Carolina at the end of their tear, fell to a mediocre Leafs squad, and have lost to Washington twice, and Pittsburgh once. Defensive accountability has been brought to the table, sure, but now that teams are starting to get their own **** together, the Czech chemistry seems to be unequal to the task.

I say let Hossa play. I understand why you feel otherwise, but at this point I don't think it's pertinent, nor do I really feel that he's truly as bad as the numbers certainly indicate.

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12-04-2005, 03:31 PM
  #79
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I think I've just jacked this thread. Perhaps I should delete that one, eh.

I spent a good 12 hours studying yesterday, and sadly am not as sharp. For that I apologize.

Perhaps, the fault lies in my thinking that this is a rebuild. Certainly the evidence points to the contrary. I'd be running things differently, and would have said "**** the world" for a year, but I digress. For what it's worth, with 1:43 left to go last night, and Jagr on the point with the puck I thought to myself, "I wonder how much we could get for him?"

And, "where is my copy of EHM?"

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12-04-2005, 04:01 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13
However, if we our primary goal is to rebuild and wins are just an added bonus, then sit Neimo who is currently playing on the 2nd line. So, the question remains whether or not we want to rebuild.
If it is what Fletch says it is, then Neimo will not be sat. Oh, I know he was benched for one game earlier this season. However, benching him for one game as oppossed to several weeks is a different story. So, if it is not Neimo then it has to be one of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg. And when it comes to those four, it makes no difference if there is a real rebuild going on or not. They are not only playing better than Hossa now, but they will be playing better than Hossa in the future. Even someone like Hollweg, who is nowhere near as talented, but is and will be much better in his role than someone like Hossa could be. Thus, Hossa sits.

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12-04-2005, 04:06 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The fact that we're discussing Hossa being benched, to me, signals more the impatience of Ranger faithful than it does the true stage of the team life cycle that the Rangers are currently in.
It is not impatience. I am plenty patient and would be willing to wait out the necessary time of a real rebuild. But the rebuild is not even the issue here. Hossa is not a rookie. He was drafted four years ago. He has not shown and continues not to show that he is a 2nd line player. And if he cannot play a role of a second line forward, then there is no use for him. There has still not been made any kind of argument that one of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg should be benched so that Hossa can stay in the lineup.

"I say let Hossa play."

Ok, I can accept that as your opinion. But then tell me who sits and why. Which of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg sits so that Hossa stays.

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12-04-2005, 04:48 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Ok, I can accept that as your opinion. But then tell me who sits and why. Which of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg sits so that Hossa stays.
TB, the player that is going to return from an injury back to active roster is Rucinsky, who is a LW. The more appropriate question IMO is who of Neimo, Hollweg, Prucha sits. This is where it gets tricky. Washington's game showed how much Hollweg's energy and hitting are important. Prucha's play has earned him time on the top line...

Hossa is a RW. Ward and Orts are embedded on the active roster and should not be taken out, as they are too valuable. IMO, the 2nd line has been probably the worst line since Rucinsky went down with an injury. I'm opening another can of worms here, but in the ideal world, Rucchin is 3rd line C. In the other thread about Hossa, I've mentioned that Hossa is a complimentary, rather than a leading player on his line. He's the kind of person that is affected by who he works (plays) with. I was advocating of playing Hossa on the right side of Prucha and Moore. By the way, before Hollweg was called up, Prucha played on the left side of Moore and Orts and they looked good. Anyways, I believe that by playing Hossa with Moore and Prucha will have him feeding off the energy, hustle and creativeness of both Prucha and Moore. As far as who should sit, I've said before that it's Hossa. But I don't want to ruin the young player's confidence the way we did with Lundmark.

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12-04-2005, 05:32 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
It is not impatience. I am plenty patient and would be willing to wait out the necessary time of a real rebuild. But the rebuild is not even the issue here. Hossa is not a rookie. He was drafted four years ago. He has not shown and continues not to show that he is a 2nd line player. And if he cannot play a role of a second line forward, then there is no use for him. There has still not been made any kind of argument that one of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg should be benched so that Hossa can stay in the lineup.

"I say let Hossa play."

Ok, I can accept that as your opinion. But then tell me who sits and why. Which of Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg sits so that Hossa stays.
I'd take Nieminen out before any of them. He's produced less, and is a liability on defense. He takes poor penalties, can't hit the net, and serves no purpose other than to irritate Crosby (which is why he's worth keeping on the roster). I've been disappointed with him so far, although I won't forget his contributions to the shootout the other night.

In regards to the age old debate with Prucha...if it meant benching Hossa or sending Prucha down for an extended period, I'd choose to part with Prucha. In terms of where this team is, and where the development needs to head, that is optimal. Although, I won't ***** because he's getting better ice time, and seems to be learning a little bit of defense.

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12-04-2005, 06:37 PM
  #84
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Defense accountability?

Yeah, Poti being benched twice when Rozsival has been worse than him all season.

I do hear what you're saying, BigE, but think this rebuild isn't materially differnet than others except for a dominating top line and a goalie that keeps the team in games and/or wins games.

And calling for Hossa's benching at the expense of the veteran Rucinsky returning means that fans want to win too, which is no different than before. A yoot doesn't produce in so many games, he should sit or have ice time reduced, at the expense of a vet.

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Old
12-04-2005, 06:39 PM
  #85
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And parting with Prucha...

at the expense of Hossa, and a vet, is pretty sad. He's shown an ability to play in the NHL, and has adjusted to N.A. hockey. Going to the AHL does nothing for his development. Great rebuild if that were to be the case, which I don't think it would be, but early in the season, that's how it was.

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Old
12-04-2005, 06:47 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
if it meant benching Hossa or sending Prucha down for an extended period, I'd choose to part with Prucha.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but I cannot believe that anyone who has watched any period of Ranger hockey this year, let alone an entire game, would make such a statement. How can you be willing to demote Prucha just so that Hossa keeps playing? I can honestly say that Hossa is not fit to carry Prucha's jockstrap.

"I'd take Nieminen out before any of them. He's produced less, and is a liability on defense. He takes poor penalties, can't hit the net, and serves no purpose other than to irritate Crosby (which is why he's worth keeping on the roster). I've been disappointed with him so far, although I won't forget his contributions to the shootout the other night."

I have also been disappointed in his play. However, I do think that he has performed better than Hossa. Let's be fair when you say he has produced less. All that means is that he has 2 less points, while playing in 3 less games. Howeverm Neimo does have 5 points in his last 10 games, compared to Hossa's 1. Yes, he takes poor penalties. However, he can be relied upon to kill penalties, unlike Hossa. As to for who can hit the net more, Neimo has just as many non-empty net goals as Hossa does. IMO, Hossa is much more of a defensive liability than Neiminen is, last night's brainless giveaway notwithstanding.
IMO, what Neimo and Hossa both have in common is that they have no place in the Rangers future. Neither is a part of the solution. Hossa has not even given a glimpse of a promise that he is. And it is frustrating considering just how much natural talent he does have.
So, at least with our debate, the choice seems to come down to Neimo or Hossa. I would personally sit the latter. However, so long as Prucha, Ward, Ortmeyer and Hollweg are left alone, I could deal with the former. However, I do not think that things have changed all that much in Rangerland, to where you will see a vet benched for weeks on-end.
A solution could be to simply deal Rucchin and Neimo to some contending team looking for good third line players. That would then open up the space to have Immonen play the second line center and keep Hossa (though undeservedly so, IMO) in the lineup. Doubtfull that such a solution will occur.

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12-04-2005, 06:50 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
And calling for Hossa's benching at the expense of the veteran Rucinsky returning means that fans want to win too, which is no different than before. A yoot doesn't produce in so many games, he should sit or have ice time reduced, at the expense of a vet.
The latter is not at all my argument, Fletch. Someone will have to sit when Rucinsky comes back. Had we not had one or two vets too many (i.e. a real rebuild), this would not have been the case. But it is and that means that one of the yoots must. IMO, the only one who is deserving of such a fate is Hossa.

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12-04-2005, 06:52 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13
As far as who should sit, I've said before that it's Hossa. But I don't want to ruin the young player's confidence the way we did with Lundmark.
That's the problem of having several vets too many. The person who always gets the shaft is the young guy.

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Old
12-04-2005, 06:57 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The fact that we're discussing Hossa being benched, to me, signals more the impatience of Ranger faithful than it does the true stage of the team life cycle that the Rangers are currently in.
If it's a true rebuild, then I think it's more appropriate to audition someone else who just might contribute more than Hossa has. Could be a 2 game stint, could be a chance to win Hossa's spot, but it's all about making an educated assessment. Chad Wiseman comes to mind as a guy who's at the same stage in his career as Hossa, has paid his dues with this organization, has played well enough at the AHL to warrant a call-up and offers at least the same level of potenital for offense as Marcel.

Honestly BigE, do you just give Hossa a pass because of waiver ineligibility?

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12-04-2005, 07:03 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
That's the problem of having several vets too many. The person who always gets the shaft is the young guy.
I agree. Immonen should be in this lineup and Dawes should also get a look. Hossa Rucchin and Niemo to a lesser extent should be outta here. I don't fault the Rangers for bringing these guys in but its time to face the fact they are part of the problem. I honestly believe the Rangers have better players in hartford with

Dawes-Hossa
Immonen-Rucchin
Pock-rozsvial

Perhaps my arguments with you and Dedalus are slowly turning me toward the dark side. Winning is exciting but the rangers are letting the pitch go by right now. They should be inserting youth into the lineup to see what we have. Players are earning there shot and in the case of Immonen, Dawes, Pock, and Lampman earned a roster spot in camp.

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12-04-2005, 07:08 PM
  #91
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Forget Dawes...

Helminen's making a case to get a tryout (although Dawes did net a couple today, as did Dwight), but it seems as though Helminen's been on fire of late, and he's another useful player in that he's also a penalty killer. OK, I'm jumping the gun here, but it seems as though he's starting to turn it on.

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Old
12-04-2005, 07:32 PM
  #92
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You guys are seeing the best Hossa has to offer.His missing ingredient is hockey sense,because, if he had it, he could adapt his quickness issues to become a grinder.That hesistancy he displays is there for a reason.

One more note.The guy who drafted him for Montreal is now working in your scouting dept.He should have spotted Hossa's missing link ages ago....

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12-04-2005, 07:48 PM
  #93
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I suppose for all of those that I've given out, it's only fair that somebody try it on me. So perhaps I'll give you a pass.

It is what it is. I've explained it a million times before, and I don't really feel like getting into the Prucha Love Affair thing again. I've roasted everyone on it, and some feelings were hurt, so I'll decidedly not venture into that territory again.

And with that, what else is there to say really?

Mel,

You and I talked at length about asset management, and that should give you the answer to your inquiry.

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12-04-2005, 09:32 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
Helminen's making a case to get a tryout (although Dawes did net a couple today, as did Dwight), but it seems as though Helminen's been on fire of late, and he's another useful player in that he's also a penalty killer. OK, I'm jumping the gun here, but it seems as though he's starting to turn it on.
Helminen would be a perfect call up if Betts or Moore went down. I loved him in college and loved the Nedved trade because of him.

I just like what i see from Dawes on the B2B games. He goes to the net and has a nifty shot. He is a goal scorer plain and simple. He is ready for his shot and so is Immonen for that matter.

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12-04-2005, 10:31 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
Perhaps my arguments with you and Dedalus are slowly turning me toward the dark side. Winning is exciting but the rangers are letting the pitch go by right now. They should be inserting youth into the lineup to see what we have. Players are earning there shot and in the case of Immonen, Dawes, Pock, and Lampman earned a roster spot in camp.
The dark side is really not all that bad. Maybe it's just shadowy?
I actually also agree on Helminen. I think that his upside would be what Moore is currently providing.

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12-05-2005, 08:33 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider
You guys are seeing the best Hossa has to offer.
This is what I'm starting to think. I don't know that sticking with Hossa guarantees that he's going to fix the things that are holding him back. To me, this just seems like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Mel,

You and I talked at length about asset management, and that should give you the answer to your inquiry.
Since I didn't tell you last time, I did appreciate you clearing the air after that discussion.

Agree in principle, but in this case, what's best for one asset doesn't seem to be what's best for many others.

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