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Old
12-12-2011, 08:41 PM
  #76
Roman Yoshi
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
what a load of crap.... if they dont want to be here, what can poile do? this isnt The Godfather where Luca Brazzi puts a gun to their head and says "either your signature or your brains will be on that contract"

if Weber and Suter leave I dont think it will be because Poile didnt make them fair offers
but wouldn't that be Poile's fault?

If both of them leave, then it will reflect horribly on our franchise. We've lost many of our guys over the years, but these are the best we've ever developed. If we fail to resign then, we really are the farm team for the big fish of the NHL.

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12-12-2011, 08:42 PM
  #77
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Re-sign Suter. Trade Weber for Parise straight up. Spend the money we would have on Weber on Parise. Call it a day.

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12-12-2011, 08:45 PM
  #78
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guess what I'm saying is, it would be stupid not to trade Suter if he's not signed by the deadline.
you act like we are going to get Forsberg or Kovalchuk type returns for a UFA Suter at the deadline but the truth is we would probably get a first round pick from a playoff team(so think mid to high 20's) and so-so prospect, or a solid prospect and a second round pick.

so then, what if we are sitting in the 4 or 5 spot at the deadline... looking at a first round matchup with a beatable but obviously tough team, who we'd have almost no chance of beating without Suter...

or we are clinging to the 7th or 8th spot, and losing Suter could make is fall out of the playoffs altogether.

to me in both of these scenarios, I take my chances, and hope that we make a deep run that convinces Suter to stick around.

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12-12-2011, 08:46 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Re-sign Suter. Trade Weber for Parise straight up. Spend the money we would have on Weber on Parise. Call it a day.
We've bolstered our offense at the cost of Kevin Klein or Roman Josi becoming our #2 defenseman.

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12-12-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
but wouldn't that be Poile's fault?

If both of them leave, then it will reflect horribly on our franchise. We've lost many of our guys over the years, but these are the best we've ever developed. If we fail to resign then, we really are the farm team for the big fish of the NHL.
you must have misread what I said. poile will (and likely alrady has)make them both very fair offers. if they dont take it, it will suck but it wont reflect anything more than their greed or a desire to play somewhere else, which Poile cant change

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12-12-2011, 08:52 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
what a load of crap.... if they dont want to be here, what can poile do? this isnt The Godfather where Luca Brazzi puts a gun to their head and says "either your signature or your brains will be on that contract"

if Weber and Suter leave I dont think it will be because Poile didnt make them fair offers
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
you must have misread what I said. poile will (and likely alrady has)make them both very fair offers. if they dont take it, it will suck but it wont reflect anything more than their greed or a desire to play somewhere else, which Poile cant change
Ah yes I do see that now. Well if they don't want to resign, then I think Poile should trade both of them at the deadline and get the most back for them we can. I don't think that will happen, but if neither wants to stay, trade both for max value. Blow up the team and start again because without them we aren't making the playoffs. Get great draft picks and start with new youth backed by Rinne.

Or it says we can't afford to pay our own players or that we aren't committed to win it all enough for the best players in the league. Either way, it doesn't look good on our franchise when we can't even resign our own players that we drafted, developed, and value.

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12-12-2011, 08:57 PM
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It is irrelevant if the guys don't want to sign. If Suter doesn't want to re-sign then Poile needs to trade him. You can fault whoever if no signing is made (Poile for the state of our franchise or Suter not willing) but at the end of the day if Poile loses Suter for nothing then that is his fault.

Our franchise cannot afford to lose guys like Suter for nothing.

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12-12-2011, 09:00 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
It is irrelevant if the guys don't want to sign. If Suter doesn't want to re-sign then Poile needs to trade him. You can fault whoever if no signing is made (Poile for the state of our franchise or Suter not willing) but at the end of the day if Poile loses Suter for nothing then that is his fault.

Our franchise cannot afford to lose guys like Suter for nothing.
The franchise also can't afford to sandbag a potential playoff run (including playoff revenue) just because one of its best players is an impending free agent.

It's just better to hope he re-signs soon, because all the other options suck.

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12-12-2011, 09:01 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
We've bolstered our offense at the cost of Kevin Klein or Roman Josi becoming our #2 defenseman.
Klein paired with Suter would still be an effective pairing. It would take the puck moving off of Klein's stick and that's what most people gripe about with him. He's a solid defender, he's just not that great with the puck. Suter handles most of the duties when paired with Weber. We see how Weber has struggled in the past without Suter. I think we'd survive.

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12-12-2011, 09:12 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Klein paired with Suter would still be an effective pairing. It would take the puck moving off of Klein's stick and that's what most people gripe about with him. He's a solid defender, he's just not that great with the puck. Suter handles most of the duties when paired with Weber. We see how Weber has struggled in the past without Suter. I think we'd survive.
I agree that we'd survive. I also think Klein would do well playing with Suter. But, this is asking Klein to replace Weber's role, and then every other d-man to step into the player's role above him. I think that's highly optimistic, and is likely to find our defense undergoing some serious struggles for the better part of a season or two while the youngsters get all sorted out.

For me, though I love Parise as a player, that is far too drastic a tradeoff for some improvement to the offense.

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12-12-2011, 09:25 PM
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Trading Suter wouldn't guarantee a playoff miss. The team did miss a few seasons ago and it didn't cripple the franchise.

Keeping Suter also doesn't guarantee that he won't re-sign, or that we won't be able to trade his rights in the off-season.

Of course, given the odds in both situations. I would rather trade him and get some tangible pieces in return to minimize the chance of missing the playoffs.

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12-12-2011, 10:29 PM
  #87
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let me clarify... I think trading Suter at the deadline for picks/prospects would be a mistake.

Trading now/soon and getting some needed pieces who can play right now in return would be an acceptable option if its clear that he's not going to extend...

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12-13-2011, 05:29 AM
  #88
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If we're having problems on D and we trade Suter, now or later, means this season is over for us. Plain and simple. Poile needs to re-sign him. Once again, plain and simple. Signing Pekka was the first step. Many said it couldn't happen. Well, let's see what Poile does here in the next few months.

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12-13-2011, 07:35 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
The franchise also can't afford to sandbag a potential playoff run (including playoff revenue) just because one of its best players is an impending free agent.

It's just better to hope he re-signs soon, because all the other options suck.
Losing Suter for nothing means possibly missing the playoffs for years to come. Losing guys like Ward and Goc for nothing is one thing; Suter is another.

If this franchise cannot afford to miss a single playoff series then the franchise needs to be moved. We will have plenty of years in the future of missing the playoffs.

If Poile loses Suter for nothing with this team as bad as it is this year then he needs to be canned. It isn't like this team is going to win us the cup this year.

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12-13-2011, 07:44 AM
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We've all just been thru a summer where the season before weber said he wanted to sign and poile and co were all saying the same thing and then weber and his new agent torpedoes a supposedly $7 m/7 yr offer and everyone at 501 broadway was in shock.
The idea of another star doing and saying the same thing is why some of us are saying trade him if he doesn't get resigned before the trade deadline.
These comments are no way a reflectiOn of suters character,etc.
What happened with weber this summer left a very bitter taste inmy mouth.

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12-13-2011, 08:18 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Losing Suter for nothing means possibly missing the playoffs for years to come. Losing guys like Ward and Goc for nothing is one thing; Suter is another.

If this franchise cannot afford to miss a single playoff series then the franchise needs to be moved. We will have plenty of years in the future of missing the playoffs.
Good post.

Where we are in the playoff race is irrelevant in this situation.

This franchise doesn't have the ability to acquire assets in any other form or fashion than draft (and then trading those drafted assets for others) and develop.

The Preds simply cannot take the chance have having one of it's most valuable assets simply walk away. We've shown little inclination to shop the FA market to replace that, so we're left with the alternative of waiting for another crop of talent to come along from the draft.

Also, there's no guarantee that any players we could acquire for Suter wouldn't help us into the playoffs this year anyway.

This would be much easier if we simply re-signed him.

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12-13-2011, 08:42 AM
  #92
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If we looked like some great contender this year, my opinion on what to do with Suter if he's not going to resign might be different, but it looks more like if we do make it into the playoffs, we'll get dusted in the first round anyway. You can't count on a team playing an AHL defense and a goaltender that missed all but the last three weeks of the season without a job, every year.

If this franchise loses Suter, it likely loses Weber as well, and all of that talk about "we're not going to be a farm team for the rest of the NHL anymore" goes right out the window. The talk will then turn to how great our "future" is, with guys like Blum and Josi and Ellis...and we can start listening for the clock to tick on them, as well.

And comparing either of these guys to Pekka is ludicrous. Pekka already came up for UFA once and re-signed, and the demand on a goaltender was never going to be what it is on a franchise defenseman. He was always going to be the easiest to sign. Everyone said to step back from the ledge when Suter said, "my agent will talk to the Predators, I want to stay," but they were quick to forget that Weber said the same thing. When members of Suter's family...the one that Suter said he looks up to the most and shapes his game after...say in public forum, "He's probably going to free agency, I hope he signs with the Sharks," yes, it's a bad sign. Gary Suter was once in a similar situation...playing in the shadow of Al MacInnis in Calgary.

I've said all along that Suter was the most likely to leave, and I think that as time goes on and he's not signed, you have to do what you can to turn him into an asset that WILL be here. And we'll get, "at best, a late first?" BS. He's a franchise defenseman that has a low caphit that any contender will be able to squeeze under at that time of year. The cost can and should include immediate returns, including a young, NHL ready forward.

As for Poile taking none of the blame...I'm not so sure about that. What other franchise with a relatively successful on-ice record can say they lost two such players in the span of a year? True, we can't make them stay...but after all the talk about how everyone wants to play here....if they're leaving it's either because we didn't offer enough money, or because they don't believe they can win here. Both of those come back to Poile.

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12-13-2011, 09:44 AM
  #93
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I was hoing we could sign 1 of Weber/Suter. I've always thought we wouldn't be able to sign all of the big 3, I'm not delusional. But if one of them signing is conditional on the other one signing, then we're screwed. That's just a crappy situation. These guys can play wherever they want to play and get payed very well for it. If the ultimate goal is to win a cup and they don't think they can do that here, who can blame them for leaving in FA?

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12-13-2011, 10:07 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by pekkaslap View Post
I was hoing we could sign 1 of Weber/Suter. I've always thought we wouldn't be able to sign all of the big 3, I'm not delusional. But if one of them signing is conditional on the other one signing, then we're screwed. That's just a crappy situation. These guys can play wherever they want to play and get payed very well for it. If the ultimate goal is to win a cup and they don't think they can do that here, who can blame them for leaving in FA?
You certainly can't blame them, but you can blame Poile for not making them believe in the team. Weber and Suter overall have been pretty damn good this year (couple of games not so much but overall pretty good). If they don't believe this team can compete for a cup whose fault is that? Poile's fault. The owners have said they are willing to spend money and if that is true then isn't it Poile's job to do so?

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12-13-2011, 10:35 AM
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You certainly can't blame them, but you can blame Poile for not making them believe in the team. Weber and Suter overall have been pretty damn good this year (couple of games not so much but overall pretty good). If they don't believe this team can compete for a cup whose fault is that? Poile's fault. The owners have said they are willing to spend money and if that is true then isn't it Poile's job to do so?
Poile can't spend more than he is allowed to...

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12-13-2011, 10:40 AM
  #96
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If we looked like some great contender this year, my opinion on what to do with Suter if he's not going to resign might be different, but it looks more like if we do make it into the playoffs, we'll get dusted in the first round anyway. You can't count on a team playing an AHL defense and a goaltender that missed all but the last three weeks of the season without a job, every year.

If this franchise loses Suter, it likely loses Weber as well, and all of that talk about "we're not going to be a farm team for the rest of the NHL anymore" goes right out the window. The talk will then turn to how great our "future" is, with guys like Blum and Josi and Ellis...and we can start listening for the clock to tick on them, as well.

And comparing either of these guys to Pekka is ludicrous. Pekka already came up for UFA once and re-signed, and the demand on a goaltender was never going to be what it is on a franchise defenseman. He was always going to be the easiest to sign. Everyone said to step back from the ledge when Suter said, "my agent will talk to the Predators, I want to stay," but they were quick to forget that Weber said the same thing. When members of Suter's family...the one that Suter said he looks up to the most and shapes his game after...say in public forum, "He's probably going to free agency, I hope he signs with the Sharks," yes, it's a bad sign. Gary Suter was once in a similar situation...playing in the shadow of Al MacInnis in Calgary.

I've said all along that Suter was the most likely to leave, and I think that as time goes on and he's not signed, you have to do what you can to turn him into an asset that WILL be here. And we'll get, "at best, a late first?" BS. He's a franchise defenseman that has a low caphit that any contender will be able to squeeze under at that time of year. The cost can and should include immediate returns, including a young, NHL ready forward.

As for Poile taking none of the blame...I'm not so sure about that. What other franchise with a relatively successful on-ice record can say they lost two such players in the span of a year? True, we can't make them stay...but after all the talk about how everyone wants to play here....if they're leaving it's either because we didn't offer enough money, or because they don't believe they can win here. Both of those come back to Poile.
I agree with these comments. When I started thinking about who will stay/leave, how likely they are to stay/leave, and the reasons they might stay/leave over the past year plus, I came to some conclusions about Pekka, Suter and Weber, and so far it's been true.

In regards to Suter, I came up with three main reasons as to why he was the most likely to test free agency (and money is NOT one of them). Family influence, particularly from Gary is right at the top of the list of why I have thought Suter is the most likely to leave the Preds. And what do you know, Gary makes a comment that makes me believe he's pushing Suter to test the market which leaves the Preds in a dangerous and potentially losing situation. I agree that the longer this goes on (probably not too far into the new calendar year) Poile has to very seriously consider hedging his bet and see what he can get for Suter. Having been stung by Weber already, maybe Poile becomes a little more proactive in this regards, but I doubt it.

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12-13-2011, 10:48 AM
  #97
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We didn't make a big move ..... but let's look how well the big player moves are working out so far. LA is sucking, coach fired, and that's after bringing in Mike Richards and Gagne. Columbus is a low scoring team with Jeff Carter brought in to augment Nash. The Rangers improved since bringing in Brad Richards who wasn't heading our way at all.

Meanwhile the Preds goals per game is up .06 g/g from last season resulting in an improvement from 21st to t-15th. The PP is considerably better. The goalie who was definitely gone along with both defenders according to the message board pundits is now signed long term. Suter's agent was in town a couple weeks ago for face to face meetings with Poile. Weber can't sign until next month at the earliest.

There are so many posts here made as though the poster knows what the player is thinking, asking for from the team, or what is happening in negotiations when none of us know what is really happening. The hand wringing and trying to assign blame without a single fact is an unproductive waste of time.

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12-13-2011, 11:11 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Losing Suter for nothing means possibly missing the playoffs for years to come. Losing guys like Ward and Goc for nothing is one thing; Suter is another.

If this franchise cannot afford to miss a single playoff series then the franchise needs to be moved. We will have plenty of years in the future of missing the playoffs.

If Poile loses Suter for nothing with this team as bad as it is this year then he needs to be canned. It isn't like this team is going to win us the cup this year.
Lets debate a bit about what kind of return Suter gets at the deadline. People act like deadline deals result in huge payoffs for a trading team but I disagree.

As a pure rental, I dont see how he possibly gets us more than a 1st (and mind you, we'd be trading him to a cup contender so unless they have someone elses first to offer we are looking at a mid 20's pick) and either another pick or a decent but not spectacular prospect. Basically something like what we gave up for Witt. Im sorry, but UFA Ryan Suter, while valuable, isnt Forsberg or Kovalchuk, and even if he was able to command a similar return those returns werent really all that great if we are wanting to stay competitive now...

How exactly is that return going to keep us in the playoffs for the next few years?

I'll stand by what I have said earlier, if we trade him, do it now and get NHL players back in return. If we are in the hunt at the deadline, dont trade him for peanuts, keep him and see what happens...

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12-13-2011, 11:19 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
If we looked like some great contender this year, my opinion on what to do with Suter if he's not going to resign might be different, but it looks more like if we do make it into the playoffs, we'll get dusted in the first round anyway. You can't count on a team playing an AHL defense and a goaltender that missed all but the last three weeks of the season without a job, every year.

If this franchise loses Suter, it likely loses Weber as well, and all of that talk about "we're not going to be a farm team for the rest of the NHL anymore" goes right out the window. The talk will then turn to how great our "future" is, with guys like Blum and Josi and Ellis...and we can start listening for the clock to tick on them, as well.

And comparing either of these guys to Pekka is ludicrous. Pekka already came up for UFA once and re-signed, and the demand on a goaltender was never going to be what it is on a franchise defenseman. He was always going to be the easiest to sign. Everyone said to step back from the ledge when Suter said, "my agent will talk to the Predators, I want to stay," but they were quick to forget that Weber said the same thing. When members of Suter's family...the one that Suter said he looks up to the most and shapes his game after...say in public forum, "He's probably going to free agency, I hope he signs with the Sharks," yes, it's a bad sign. Gary Suter was once in a similar situation...playing in the shadow of Al MacInnis in Calgary.

I've said all along that Suter was the most likely to leave, and I think that as time goes on and he's not signed, you have to do what you can to turn him into an asset that WILL be here. And we'll get, "at best, a late first?" BS. He's a franchise defenseman that has a low caphit that any contender will be able to squeeze under at that time of year. The cost can and should include immediate returns, including a young, NHL ready forward.

As for Poile taking none of the blame...I'm not so sure about that. What other franchise with a relatively successful on-ice record can say they lost two such players in the span of a year? True, we can't make them stay...but after all the talk about how everyone wants to play here....if they're leaving it's either because we didn't offer enough money, or because they don't believe they can win here. Both of those come back to Poile.
as I said in another post, I disagree with your assessment of the return for Suter, and neither of us can prove who's right, but if Scottie Upshall is the best that Forsberg could bring, I dont see rental Suter getting us much more than a Halischuk/Spaling clone.

and poile will offer fair money. he apparently already offerd Shea fair money. if you are gonna blame him for not offering stupid money just so he'd sign, then I'd like to know just how high you think is too high.

if they truly think we cant win, then I doubt there is much of anything to be done to change their minds. Yeah, you can put some of that blame on poile, but truly you have to blame the whole franchise, the owners, and the market too.

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12-13-2011, 11:31 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
We didn't make a big move ..... but let's look how well the big player moves are working out so far. LA is sucking, coach fired, and that's after bringing in Mike Richards and Gagne. Columbus is a low scoring team with Jeff Carter brought in to augment Nash. The Rangers improved since bringing in Brad Richards who wasn't heading our way at all.

Meanwhile the Preds goals per game is up .06 g/g from last season resulting in an improvement from 21st to t-15th. The PP is considerably better. The goalie who was definitely gone along with both defenders according to the message board pundits is now signed long term. Suter's agent was in town a couple weeks ago for face to face meetings with Poile. Weber can't sign until next month at the earliest.

There are so many posts here made as though the poster knows what the player is thinking, asking for from the team, or what is happening in negotiations when none of us know what is really happening. The hand wringing and trying to assign blame without a single fact is an unproductive waste of time.
Your argument is, once again, flawed. For every columbus there is a minnesota that made big moves and now sits atop the league standings. Or maybe Florida? Or Philly? Some times succeed some teams don't just because they make big moves doesn't mean they are doomed to fail

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