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Old
12-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #101
Avder
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Organizational accountability and competence comes from the top down.

So yeah were pretty ****ed.

The Wild are the best team in town, and will be for years, imo.

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12-11-2011, 11:14 PM
  #102
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Organizational accountability and competence comes from the top down.

So yeah were pretty ****ed.

The Wild are the best team in town, and will be for years, imo.
The Vikes and those other guys are ****ed, but I don't think the Twins' situation is quite as dire as everyone says. I think last season was something of an outlier. That doesn't mean I'd pick us as the Division favorites or anything, but I don't see us mired at the bottom of the AL again. Ryan back at the help should, like you say, bring accountability and competence from the top down.

That said, I think you're right that the Wild are the best team in town and will be for years. But that's a complement to Fletcher––not necessarily a slam against the Twins.

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12-11-2011, 11:21 PM
  #103
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Well, the Twins I see as a middle of the pack team next year. Hovering right around 3rd in the Central and like 6th or 7th in he AL. I think in a few years we might be a playoff team again, but considering how pretty much everyone choked last year, and injuries were rampant, I think some drastic changes need to take place, particularly in the trainers room.

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12-13-2011, 11:25 AM
  #104
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even the vikings have some promise imo.

game breaking WR and RB, and a QB who looks like he could be pretty good...the future ain't that bad

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12-13-2011, 08:13 PM
  #105
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Twins reportedly signed Josh Willingham to a multi-year deal.

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12-13-2011, 09:20 PM
  #106
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Twins reportedly signed Josh Willingham to a multi-year deal.
Who is he?

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12-13-2011, 09:22 PM
  #107
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Who is he?
Basically a replacement for Cuddyer. Outfielder with the A's last season...had something like 28-29 homers with over 100 RBI...seems to be a move that a majority of the fanbase likes because it's cheaper and if Cuddyer signs elsewhere we get 2 draft picks.

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12-13-2011, 09:25 PM
  #108
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Twins reportedly signed Josh Willingham to a multi-year deal.
Quite a good deal.

We're done for position players I'd guess.

Sucks that Cuddy is gone, but it was best for the franchise. We get draft picks and a similar player. It needed to be done.

For the pitching problem. There isn't a whole lot out there. In a dirty secret sorta way, I'm kind of intrigued by Joe Saunders.

He's your typical #4/5 innings eater.

Liriano-Baker-Pavano-Blackburn-Saunders

Sure you won't win with that, but gosh darn it doesn't it eat innings.

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12-14-2011, 11:00 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
Basically a replacement for Cuddyer. Outfielder with the A's last season...had something like 28-29 homers with over 100 RBI...seems to be a move that a majority of the fanbase likes because it's cheaper and if Cuddyer signs elsewhere we get 2 draft picks.
Count me in the majority. With Cuddyer holding out signing this long, I'm totally fine with them just walking away from that offer and signing Willingham. Willingham put up good numbers in a "pitcher-friendly" ballpark in Oakland last year and I'd rather have him locked up now than miss out on both him and Cuddyer. Cuddy can go sign with the Phillies and we'll take those draft picks.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:26 AM
  #110
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The only thing I'm going to miss about "strong armed Michael Cuddyer" (Burt Blyleven voice) is when he throws out a baserunner trying to tag up from 2nd a couple times a season. With what he's probably asking for, I would let him go 100%. Oh, and we get two draft picks if someone else signs him? Schwing.

Guess I should probably point out that I do have a slight bias against Cuddyer though. My bud who works valet at Chino Latino told me he saw Cuddy tell a 5-year old to "get lost kid" when he asked for an autograph on his Twins hat. FWIW.

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Old
12-15-2011, 01:33 AM
  #111
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The Vikes and those other guys are ****ed, but I don't think the Twins' situation is quite as dire as everyone says. I think last season was something of an outlier. That doesn't mean I'd pick us as the Division favorites or anything, but I don't see us mired at the bottom of the AL again. Ryan back at the help should, like you say, bring accountability and competence from the top down.

That said, I think you're right that the Wild are the best team in town and will be for years. But that's a complement to Fletcher––not necessarily a slam against the Twins.
The AL Central enough of a cluster that the Twins can't be counted out, since it seems like next year all it will take is a reasonably competitive team to challenge for the division.

The Vikes I unfortunately agree are ****ed. It's going to suck watching Peterson turn out to be this generation's Barry Sanders (RB with otherworldly talent stuck on a crud team). Turnarounds can happen quicker in the NFL than any sport, but outside of Allen, the Vikes are too depleted on D, and the offense isn't a whole lot more promising.

Those other guys aren't that ****ed. Kahn's a condescending d-bag with shaky decisionmaking, but he's fallen bass ackwards into an interesting roster helmed one of the more successful coaches in recent NBA history in Rick Adelman. Love, Ricky Rubio and Derrick Williams is a nice 3 man core to build on, and there are a couple other young guys who could really benefit from Rubio's unique skill set. They're probably at least a year away from competing for the playoffs, but they should be exponentially more watchable this year. The main thing working against them right now is that they're a young team relying on new faces to play big roles in a new system. Right now I'm just happy that the Clippers will no longer be adding the 2012 lottery pick to Griffin and Gordon. It's still going to suck watching the Hornets make the pick, but the chances that it adds one of the final pieces to a potential dynasty have been lessened.

I agree with your point that the Wild are the top dog now and for the foreseeable future, and that it's largely due to Fletcher and Yeo being in place.


Last edited by Averman: 12-15-2011 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Forgot to agree about the Wild.
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12-15-2011, 01:42 AM
  #112
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I just cant count the Wimperpups as a valid sports team at this time considering how little I think of the NBA, sorry.

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12-15-2011, 01:43 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Averman View Post
The AL Central enough of a cluster that the Twins can't be counted out, since it seems like next year all it will take is a reasonably competitive team to challenge for the division.

The Vikes I unfortunately agree are ****ed. It's going to suck watching Peterson turn out to be this generation's Barry Sanders (RB with otherworldly talent stuck on a crud team). Turnarounds can happen quicker in the NFL than any sport, but outside of Allen, the Vikes are too depleted on D, and the offense isn't a whole lot more promising.

Those other guys aren't that ****ed. Kahn's a condescending d-bag with shaky decisionmaking, but he's fallen bass ackwards into an interesting roster helmed one of the more successful coaches in recent NBA history in Rick Adelman. Love, Ricky Rubio and Derrick Williams is a nice 3 man core to build on, and there are a couple other young guys who could really benefit from Rubio's unique skill set. They're probably at least a year away from competing for the playoffs, but they should be exponentially more watchable this year. The main thing working against them right now is that they're a young team relying on new faces to play big roles in a new system. Right now I'm just happy that the Clippers will no longer be adding the 2012 lottery pick to Griffin and Gordon. It's still going to suck watching the Hornets make the pick, but the chances that it adds one of the final pieces to a potential dynasty have been lessened.

I agree with your point that the Wild are the top dog now and for the foreseeable future, and that it's largely due to Fletcher and Yeo being in place.
I disagree with your assessment of Khan. He may be condescending but he didn't fall into this roster. He inherited a team with tons of terrible contracts and underachievers and turned into an intriguing group of young talent in just a few years. Unlike most of the NBA, the Wolves have no bad contracts (Darko maybe... but it's really not that bad). The pups could win a few games...

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12-15-2011, 02:35 AM
  #114
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I disagree with your assessment of Khan. He may be condescending but he didn't fall into this roster. He inherited a team with tons of terrible contracts and underachievers and turned into an intriguing group of young talent in just a few years. Unlike most of the NBA, the Wolves have no bad contracts (Darko maybe... but it's really not that bad). The pups could win a few games...
I would have expanded my thoughts on Kahn, but didn't really think anyone 'round these parts would give a ****.

He inherited an awful roster, but McHale had already done most of the work in terms of clearing out terrible contracts (a.k.a., cleaning up his own mistakes). The only expensive long term contract on the team when Kahn took over was Al Jefferson (debatable if that's a bad contract or not. It was a relative bargain when he signed, but an unfavorable one after he got hurt). There was lots of dead weight on the roster, but most of it was expiring dead weight. It's also not like the current Wolves roster is devoid of underachievers. They probably outnumber the over/normal achievers.

Foye/Miller for the pick that became Rubio was a stroke of genius. He's also done a good job of shopping the bargain bin for young guys with talent who haven't been able to put it together (Beasley, Randolph, and even Darko-ugh-).

Unfortunately, outside of Rubio and hopefully Williams and Malcolm Lee, his draft day performance has been reprehensible. Most of his forays into free agency have been unsuccessful at best. I like that he's been unable to make a David Lee type splurge (even though he tried) and maintained salary flexibility. I wish he'd do more to leverage that flexibility into assets the way OKC did when they were rebuilding, but I like that he's used it to take chances on Randolph and Beasley

Darko's a bad contract, and it wasn't helped by his reputation and Kahn's overheaping praise on him the summer it was signed. He's the definition of a million dollar talent with a ten cent head and I'm endlessly frustrated by the fact that someone with his size who's shown a penchant for angry outbursts plays softer than Charmin around the rim. Pekovic is also a bad contract at the moment, although his strengths could theoretically be exploited by Rubio. Ridnour and Barea also have the potential to be bleh contracts.

He hired a complete dunderhead who was justifiably fired, but he couldn't even do that without turning Rambis into a sympathetic figure.

He didn't exactly fall into the roster, but aside from the two picks he made where he went with the consensus (Rubio and Williams), aggressively rummaging through the bargain bin, and hiring Adelman, he hasn't done much I've been impressed by. Just about anytime he's tried to go against the grain it's come back to bite him in the ass, and it doesn't help matters that he can't keep his foot out of his mouth.

I don't hate the guy (even though it may come across that way), and I like the core of the roster he's put together, but I think you're giving him too much credit.

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12-15-2011, 09:51 AM
  #115
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I would have expanded my thoughts on Kahn, but didn't really think anyone 'round these parts would give a ****.

He inherited an awful roster, but McHale had already done most of the work in terms of clearing out terrible contracts (a.k.a., cleaning up his own mistakes). The only expensive long term contract on the team when Kahn took over was Al Jefferson (debatable if that's a bad contract or not. It was a relative bargain when he signed, but an unfavorable one after he got hurt). There was lots of dead weight on the roster, but most of it was expiring dead weight. It's also not like the current Wolves roster is devoid of underachievers. They probably outnumber the over/normal achievers.

Foye/Miller for the pick that became Rubio was a stroke of genius. He's also done a good job of shopping the bargain bin for young guys with talent who haven't been able to put it together (Beasley, Randolph, and even Darko-ugh-).

Unfortunately, outside of Rubio and hopefully Williams and Malcolm Lee, his draft day performance has been reprehensible. Most of his forays into free agency have been unsuccessful at best. I like that he's been unable to make a David Lee type splurge (even though he tried) and maintained salary flexibility. I wish he'd do more to leverage that flexibility into assets the way OKC did when they were rebuilding, but I like that he's used it to take chances on Randolph and Beasley

Darko's a bad contract, and it wasn't helped by his reputation and Kahn's overheaping praise on him the summer it was signed. He's the definition of a million dollar talent with a ten cent head and I'm endlessly frustrated by the fact that someone with his size who's shown a penchant for angry outbursts plays softer than Charmin around the rim. Pekovic is also a bad contract at the moment, although his strengths could theoretically be exploited by Rubio. Ridnour and Barea also have the potential to be bleh contracts.

He hired a complete dunderhead who was justifiably fired, but he couldn't even do that without turning Rambis into a sympathetic figure.

He didn't exactly fall into the roster, but aside from the two picks he made where he went with the consensus (Rubio and Williams), aggressively rummaging through the bargain bin, and hiring Adelman, he hasn't done much I've been impressed by. Just about anytime he's tried to go against the grain it's come back to bite him in the ass, and it doesn't help matters that he can't keep his foot out of his mouth.

I don't hate the guy (even though it may come across that way), and I like the core of the roster he's put together, but I think you're giving him too much credit.
To be honest I don't follow the Wolves all that closely... i was giving him credit for getting rid of guys like Jaric, but you're right they were gone before he took over.

As far as darko goes, didn't a lot of his contract have to do with the Wolves needing to get to the salary floor? Also, I think you and I have different definitions of a bad contract. When I see a bad contract I see guys that are so drastically overpaid that it stops you from being able to do anything... Wolves are in a pretty good cap situation.

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12-15-2011, 10:13 AM
  #116
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I used to follow the Wolves pretty closely when I was growing up because I played organized basketball up until I graduated high school. I eventually got extremely bored with basketball for a couple different reasons.

First, the more I got into hockey, the more pointless basketball became to me. In basketball, an entire team's success can hinge on one superstar (see Michael Jordan in Chicago or Lebron James in Cleveland). In hockey, a team like Pittsburgh can still push hard into the playoffs without a Sidney Crosby on the roster.

Secondly, the NBA couldn't hold my interest in a bucket. It's the same 5-6 teams winning in rotation every year with the league superstars forming their own super-teams with their buddies. The league needs to seriously address that soon or else the smaller market teams are just going to bleed money until they're retracted (not sure if the NBA has revenue sharing to aid the smaller market teams). I was personally rooting for a lockout this year to either kill the NBA or save it (hopefully it ends up being the latter).

So yeah, there's my rant on the NBA.

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12-15-2011, 10:21 AM
  #117
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I used to follow the Wolves pretty closely when I was growing up because I played organized basketball up until I graduated high school. I eventually got extremely bored with basketball for a couple different reasons.

First, the more I got into hockey, the more pointless basketball became to me. In basketball, an entire team's success can hinge on one superstar (see Michael Jordan in Chicago or Lebron James in Cleveland). In hockey, a team like Pittsburgh can still push hard into the playoffs without a Sidney Crosby on the roster.

Secondly, the NBA couldn't hold my interest in a bucket. It's the same 5-6 teams winning in rotation every year with the league superstars forming their own super-teams with their buddies. The league needs to seriously address that soon or else the smaller market teams are just going to bleed money until they're retracted (not sure if the NBA has revenue sharing to aid the smaller market teams). I was personally rooting for a lockout this year to either kill the NBA or save it (hopefully it ends up being the latter).

So yeah, there's my rant on the NBA.
Baseball has gone that way too. 5-6 teams always on top of the league. I have really lost my interest in it recently. It was great to see the Twins get to the playoffs, but then everyone sees what money can buy.

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12-15-2011, 10:39 AM
  #118
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Wait, so the NBA has a hard floor but not a hard cap? No wonder so many teams are bleeding money and useless jerks get paid so much money. All the good players get snatched up by the elite teams so the rest of the league is left overpaying for scraps to get to the floor. What a joke.

And from what I have read of their new CBA, they didn't address ****. That trade that got vetoed pretty much cemented the NBA's status as a complete joke of a league in more ways than one. Still no hard cap, no real revenue sharing if I recall, and nothing stopping the players from tampering amongst themselves by doing what the jerks in Miami did.

I used to love watching basketball. I could never play it worth a damn (except freethrows, I used to be lights out shooting those, much to the dismay of my HS team when it was in trouble with the coach), but I enjoyed the game back in HS since I went to a school that didn't have a Hockey team. I also used to enjoy watching the NBA, especially the finals each year. My grandma and grandpa were big fans of the Suns and Spurs, so I ended up watching them a lot, and I hated the Bulls for pretty much owning the league when they won their 6 with Jordan.

Then when I got done with HS and we got the Wild and I started watching more hockey again, I started to notice a few things. First of all, basketball is SLOW. It is a plodding, stoppage prone game what with the ticky tack foul calling, countless out of bounds stoppages, and timeouts out the wazoo. There are very few stretches of continuous action that last more than a few minutes because if one team has all the momentum, you just call time out. And dont get me started on the final minutes of the 4th. I think in all the games I watched before I graduated HS, I think I saw that foul technique work maybe all of once, and I think that was because Brekenridge was total **** from the line that year for some damned reason. I think it was them, I dont remember.

The point is hockey is all action, all the time. Its built in stoppages in the form of TV timeouts at the NHL level are far superior to the random stoppages that are a plethora of timeouts at all levels of basketball. The final minutes of a close hockey game are also very entertaining as one team pulls out all the stops, as well as their goaltender, in a desperate attempt to tie it up. The best part is that technique actually works often enough that there is reason to hope for a comeback, unlike in basketball where any modest lead is more than likely to hold up against the foul-and-bucket method.

And then theres the players of the NBA. I remember that the players of the NBA when I watched it in high school were all pretty respectable as far as I could tell. They showed up, played the game, and went home. Now I just feel like the NBA players think every moment is a party or something. I don't really feel like I want to be associated with that kind of stuff. I just don't feel I can respect the culture that now surrounds the NBA.

Oh, and I dont like the changes that the NBA has gone through as far as rule changes. Playing defense now is apparently a foul or something. Its rediculous. Seems geared toward letting the superstars steal the show. How big is an NBA bench? 12 guys including the starting 5? How many of them actually get used for more than 30 seconds in a game? Speed up the game so that you have to constantly swap players during stoppages so the game revolves less around superstars and more around a team oriented style of play.

I could go on and on, but this rant is long enough at this point, and I am close to passing out.

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12-15-2011, 10:58 AM
  #119
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Baseball has gone that way too. 5-6 teams always on top of the league. I have really lost my interest in it recently. It was great to see the Twins get to the playoffs, but then everyone sees what money can buy.
This is true, although I can still watch an entire baseball game without wanting to throw myself off a tall building. Even if the Wolves were comeptive and making the playoffs, I still couldn't get into it because the game is so slow. Plus, I like going to different baseball stadiums. Most of them are so unique and have some cool history behind them.

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12-15-2011, 12:59 PM
  #120
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To be honest I don't follow the Wolves all that closely... i was giving him credit for getting rid of guys like Jaric, but you're right they were gone before he took over.

As far as darko goes, didn't a lot of his contract have to do with the Wolves needing to get to the salary floor? Also, I think you and I have different definitions of a bad contract. When I see a bad contract I see guys that are so drastically overpaid that it stops you from being able to do anything... Wolves are in a pretty good cap situation.
Darko got the contract because he's huge and showed a bit of a pulse, along some surprising skills that fit with the offensive philosophy of the coach at the time (in theory) during his brief 2009-10 audition. Last year showed that while you'll see flashes of why he was picked ahead of Melo, Bosh and Wade, on the whole he just doesn't have the awareness or mental toughness on the court to take advantage of his gifts.

Kahn still handed out another $10M per season (to Pekovic, Ridnour and Tolliver) and then took on another $10M in order to acquire Randolph during the season. NBA teams don't have to start the season at the floor, they just have to get there by the end of the season.

Kahn hasn't made the one big bad contract mistake (although he's tried, thank god David Lee went to the Warriors), but the medium sized gaffes add up. He's handed out a 4 year, $16-19M deal to a PG every offseason he's been there, despite drafting Rubio and Flynn back to back at #5 and #6 during his first draft. He's now got $8+ million per year tied up in backup point guards for the next 3 years, and around $9 million per tied up in centers who may not even be backup quality for the next 3 years (could be 2 if they act on the early out in Darko's contract). If you take those away they could have actually had enough cap room to sign someone of consequence this offseason. Instead they have/had just enough room to overpay a role player.

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12-15-2011, 01:19 PM
  #121
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Darko got the contract because he's huge and showed a bit of a pulse, along some surprising skills that fit with the offensive philosophy of the coach at the time (in theory) during his brief 2009-10 audition. Last year showed that while you'll see flashes of why he was picked ahead of Melo, Bosh and Wade, on the whole he just doesn't have the awareness or mental toughness on the court to take advantage of his gifts.

Kahn still handed out another $10M per season (to Pekovic, Ridnour and Tolliver) and then took on another $10M in order to acquire Randolph during the season. NBA teams don't have to start the season at the floor, they just have to get there by the end of the season.

Kahn hasn't made the one big bad contract mistake (although he's tried, thank god David Lee went to the Warriors), but the medium sized gaffes add up. He's handed out a 4 year, $16-19M deal to a PG every offseason he's been there, despite drafting Rubio and Flynn back to back at #5 and #6 during his first draft. He's now got $8+ million per year tied up in backup point guards for the next 3 years, and around $9 million per tied up in centers who may not even be backup quality for the next 3 years (could be 2 if they act on the early out in Darko's contract). If you take those away they could have actually had enough cap room to sign someone of consequence this offseason. Instead they have/had just enough room to overpay a role player.
I guess i don't have much of a problem with Barea/Ridnour. I feel like Ridnour is likely trade bait, and he has a reputation as a good mentor and a dependable but unspectacular backup point guard. The Wolves should have no trouble flipping him for a draft pick.

Barea I like because he plays such a contrasting style to Rubio. Barea is an offensive player who can create his own shot... Rubio is a pass-oriented defensive minded PG. Also, FWIW Barea speaks spanish, so he should help Rubio transition a little easier.

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12-15-2011, 01:58 PM
  #122
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I'm kind of interested to see how Rubio and the gang looks.

I know nothing about basketball or the NBA...but is it normal to make 1st round picks and flip them for crap or to dump 1st round picks after only a year? Are they pretty much as good as they're going to get by the end of their rookie year? It just seems like they get so little value for the picks.

Also, it's hilarious to watch the NBA draft coverage because it seems that half the picks get traded within the day so the anchors are all kinds of confused.

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12-15-2011, 03:14 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Wild48 View Post
I guess i don't have much of a problem with Barea/Ridnour. I feel like Ridnour is likely trade bait, and he has a reputation as a good mentor and a dependable but unspectacular backup point guard. The Wolves should have no trouble flipping him for a draft pick.

Barea I like because he plays such a contrasting style to Rubio. Barea is an offensive player who can create his own shot... Rubio is a pass-oriented defensive minded PG. Also, FWIW Barea speaks spanish, so he should help Rubio transition a little easier.
I don't have a problem with Barea and Ridnour as players, I'm just not a fan of committing that kind of money for that long to bench players year after year.

If they were going to play the spanish speaker card I would have preferred they used the room to acquire Rubio's buddy Rudy Fernandez, somebody who's played with Rubio at DKV Joventut, rooms with him when they're playing for Spain's national team and plays a position of need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I'm kind of interested to see how Rubio and the gang looks.

I know nothing about basketball or the NBA...but is it normal to make 1st round picks and flip them for crap or to dump 1st round picks after only a year? Are they pretty much as good as they're going to get by the end of their rookie year? It just seems like they get so little value for the picks.

Also, it's hilarious to watch the NBA draft coverage because it seems that half the picks get traded within the day so the anchors are all kinds of confused.
It isn't normal to the degree Kahn's done it, but as I said before, Kahn's draft record is largely dismal. Most aren't as good as they're going to get, but picks outside the lottery don't hold a ton of value normally (teams can usually buy one for $2-3M if they're so inclined because a team doesn't want to add a guaranteed salary). Kahn also did this weird thing in 2010 where he tried to draft veteran leadership, so both of his 1st round picks were 23-24 years old when they started the season and are/were less likely to really kick things up a few notches.

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12-16-2011, 05:14 AM
  #124
melinko
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I'm mildly interested in how the Wolves do this year (I might watch a couple hours), but it doesn't even matter.

If any player on the current roster becomes a star he will just be traded to NY, LA, CHI, or BOS when its discovered he is going to leave in FA anyway.

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12-16-2011, 08:22 AM
  #125
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That's why the NBA is a joke to me. They obviously don't care about the long term health of the league. If they were serious, they would have nixed the season in order to install a hard salary cap that would kill those kind of deals. Instead we're seeing even more concentration of talent.

That's going to probably cause a lot more relocation and other problems around the league. Even if they had revenue sharing where the half dozen successful markets could give money to the rest of the league, ticket sales and interest would drop and drop.

And unlike hockey, there's a lot more competition for basketball fans' eyes and cash in college basketball. It's a much bigger sport on a much bigger stage than college hockey is.

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