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Old
12-13-2011, 12:54 PM
  #101
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I think the point 101st was trying to make was more along the lines of "It's the type of move you make, not just the move." Big moves do work for some teams, and they do absolutely nothing for others. Some teams slightly improve, and some teams ignore the glaring holes while focusing on improving areas that weren't that bad to begin with. The latter teams end up worse off than before.

Nashville definitely could use a big move if it's the right move for the team. Right now I think the best move would be to sign a vet, stay-at-home defenseman with some grit AND with a brain (sorry, SOB). After that it will be easier to tell what exactly is needed. Improving the defense could actually improve the offense, and the offense isn't that bad.

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12-13-2011, 01:32 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Lets debate a bit about what kind of return Suter gets at the deadline. People act like deadline deals result in huge payoffs for a trading team but I disagree.

As a pure rental, I dont see how he possibly gets us more than a 1st (and mind you, we'd be trading him to a cup contender so unless they have someone elses first to offer we are looking at a mid 20's pick) and either another pick or a decent but not spectacular prospect. Basically something like what we gave up for Witt. Im sorry, but UFA Ryan Suter, while valuable, isnt Forsberg or Kovalchuk, and even if he was able to command a similar return those returns werent really all that great if we are wanting to stay competitive now...

How exactly is that return going to keep us in the playoffs for the next few years?

I'll stand by what I have said earlier, if we trade him, do it now and get NHL players back in return. If we are in the hunt at the deadline, dont trade him for peanuts, keep him and see what happens...
So we should lose him for nothing because the return wouldn't be that great? Poile should have traded him earlier then.

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12-13-2011, 01:39 PM
  #103
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But then you run into the question of do you trade any player who MIGHT be too expensive or who MAY want to leave, and if so, when? His value last season likely wouldn't have been a ton more than it would be this season if his impending UFA status is that big of a hang up. After all, trading him last season would have still given a team a player who would be a UFA in July, so the only certainty would be one season. Do you trade him last summer when there was absolutely no reason to think he won't be signed? Of course, there really is no legitimate reason to think he definitely won't be signing an extension as far as any of us know.

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12-13-2011, 03:11 PM
  #104
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Your argument is, once again, flawed. For every columbus there is a minnesota that made big moves and now sits atop the league standings. Or maybe Florida? Or Philly? Some times succeed some teams don't just because they make big moves doesn't mean they are doomed to fail
Joe, the funny thing is how you rant after every trade that Poile wasn't the one to make the deal. Most of the biggest forwards to move via trade aren't panning out for their new teams (M. Richards and Carter). Let's be honest here ... Jagr and Brad Richards weren't going to sign as FAs in Nashville period. Really, only Minnesota is benefiting from their trades ... Havlat isn't doing squat for the Sharks and SJ's scoring is down .3 goals per game. Shockingly, although winning more Minnesota really isn't scoring more with only a .02 goals/game increase.

Florida with all of the picks and deals they've made since Tallon moved down there is scoring a whopping .04 more goals per game than the "terrible" Predators offense that you constantly moan about ... and all of their scoring is one line. That $3.5mil for Upshall isn't paying off for them. Florida had to go big or go home because, unlike the Preds, they've sucked for the past few years.

Philly moved out two top forwards, brought one in via free agency and has a rookie stepping up and netting eleven so far. Simmonds and Voracek are on pace for a combined 30 goals or so ... compared to the combined 59 for Richards and Carter last season. The "big deal" for them was Jagr, not the trades. We'll see how well the Flyers continue to do without Giroux.

Back on track ... nobody posting here has a freaking clue what transpires in the talks between Poile and the players. We don't know if Suter is waiting for his agent to get back to him on the details of how long, how much per, and what kind of signing bonuses are in a deal or if he's made up his mind to play in the KHL so he doesn't ever have to set foot in the Bridge again. Peks was gone next season according to these boards, until he signed.

There are about 197 days until either of our top pair can become a FA. That's a bit too long for me to analyze every gesture and expression and twist it into a "he's going to sign" or "he's definitely gone" with a complete lack of facts and details to back up either position.

Based on Weber's actions last summer, I wouldn't be surprised if he went past 1 Jul and tested the offer sheet market to set his price with an expectation that Poile will match. In retrospect it looks like that is exactly what he and his new agent wanted this off season and the arbitration filing to block just that move threw a wrench into their plans. With Suter all we know for sure is that his agent made a trip to see Poile a couple of weeks ago. Gary's comments are those of a commentator, give them as much weight as you wish but I don't see them as worthy of going off the deep end.

For now the biggest need is a stay home d-man. SOB tried to play the style we're lacking, but isn't/wasn't the right guy for this roster.

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12-13-2011, 05:10 PM
  #105
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Trading away Suter for picks and prospects is a silly idea (unless of course we are WAY out of a playoff spot). If a deal happens to come that makes us better now then sure, go for it (e.g. Parise). But don't just give him away for futures.

Say we do sell him off at the deadline because he hasn't re-upped. K, now we are only a couple points out of the playoffs and are missing a #2 dman. I wonder where we could acquire an elite shutdown guy on a friendly contract, that would only cost us some picks and prospects? Hmmm... I wonder if Suter is available...

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12-13-2011, 06:43 PM
  #106
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And letting him walk away for nothing is a good idea?

How about Weber after next year?

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12-13-2011, 06:59 PM
  #107
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Let's just trade him now so we can all say Poile made a move. Suter for the rights to Filatov or maybe a 7th round pick from Vancouver. Nevermind that we don't have a clue what the status of talks between him, his agent, and Poile are ... just panic and do something to say something was done.

It doesn't make sense, but, it fits the tone of a lot of the posts lately.

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12-13-2011, 07:45 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
...There are about 197 days until either of our top pair can become a FA. That's a bit too long for me to analyze every gesture and expression and twist it into a "he's going to sign" or "he's definitely gone" with a complete lack of facts and details to back up either position.

Based on Weber's actions last summer, I wouldn't be surprised if he went past 1 Jul and tested the offer sheet market to set his price with an expectation that Poile will match. In retrospect it looks like that is exactly what he and his new agent wanted this off season and the arbitration filing to block just that move threw a wrench into their plans. With Suter all we know for sure is that his agent made a trip to see Poile a couple of weeks ago. Gary's comments are those of a commentator, give them as much weight as you wish but I don't see them as worthy of going off the deep end.

For now the biggest need is a stay home d-man. SOB tried to play the style we're lacking, but isn't/wasn't the right guy for this roster.
Agree with the part I have included. As far as Uncle Gary, you might have noticed Ryan said in the paper today he didn't talk to his uncle about hockey much lately.

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12-13-2011, 07:53 PM
  #109
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So we should lose him for nothing because the return wouldn't be that great? Poile should have traded him earlier then.
again, you have to take it in context... if and only if we know he will not re-sign, then you think of moving him.

move him now and get NHL caliber players in return... I can live with that

if we move him at the deadline for a pick we wont see in the nhl for a minimum of three or four years, and I'd just as soon take my chances that he is the difference between making the playoffs and not making it, or winning a round vs not.... the extra money would at least help us sign a replacement if we did lose him...

if you think we will get a colin wilson equivalent at the deadline, well, I guess we will just have to see if it ever gets to that point but I am highly skeptical...

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12-13-2011, 08:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
And letting him walk away for nothing is a good idea?

How about Weber after next year?
Yes, I would rather see him walk away for nothing than trade him for futures and kill any playoff hope for this year.

Of course if we are way out of the playoffs by Feb then I'll be singing a different tune. But right now, we're right in the thick of it.

Too early to make any calls on Weber.

Would you support a Suter/Parise swap if Suter doesn't want to sign?

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12-13-2011, 09:38 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Yes, I would rather see him walk away for nothing than trade him for futures and kill any playoff hope for this year.

Of course if we are way out of the playoffs by Feb then I'll be singing a different tune. But right now, we're right in the thick of it.

Too early to make any calls on Weber.

Would you support a Suter/Parise swap if Suter doesn't want to sign?
If Suter doesn't want to re-sign here, it doesn't make much sense to me to deal him for a UFA that probably won't want to re-sign here either.

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12-13-2011, 10:51 PM
  #112
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Comparing the trades of Witt and Forsberg and Kovy to possibly dealing Suter are off base. Suter is ten times the defenseman Witt is. If Witt can get a mid to late 1st, Suter should land more. Forsberg, while a great player in his prime, netted Philly what, Upshall, Parent(who has amounted to nothing) and a mid round 1st. This was a broken down Forsberg. Suter is entering his prime. Should land more. Last year we traded a mid to late first rounder for Fisher. Fisher is a 2nd/3rd line center on most teams. Once again, Suter should net more than that. Kovy got a decent return but nothing really substantial. He's a sniper in his prime. NJ paid quantity instead of quality. Atlanta also has had horrible GM's so they didn't maximize what they could have for Kovy.

All that said, we can get more than a 1st for Suter. I don't see us letting him walk though. He's too valuable. All the talk of we can't afford all of the big 3 is BS. The owners have clearly stated that we can afford all 3. Does anyone really think that Rinne would've re-signed for the length of contract he did if he thought Suter and Weber would be gone in the next 2 years? I think it's only a matter of time before we hear the re-signings of both Suter and Weber. I think the play of the young guys has to give them hope that this team is on the right track and we have more pieces coming up the ranks that can supplement the team if need be. The reason I'm optimistic about the team is that for the first time in a while, we appear somewhat healthy and we have 3 lines that are all producing good offensive opportunities. Spaling/Wilson/Tootoo has been our best line the last 3 games. The other two lines looked good tonight too. We got a goal from our 4th line tonight. The defensive pairings seem to be settling in with Josi and Hillen being the third pair.

We are still a little inconsistent but hopefully we're on an upswing right now. We get in a tizzy any time we're in a tail spin or having just come out of one. Well, we're on a 3 game winning streak right now. Rinne is looking more like himself. Weber and Suter have been well, Weber and Suter lately. There are peaks and valleys during a season. If the young guys continue to do what they're doing, I think Suter and Weber will see the team has great potential for many years to come. The playoffs are a crap shoot. Boston proved last year that you need quality depth to win. They didn't have any monster offensive weapons up front but they had a lot of very good players. I see us molded after them. Solid D, great goalie and a lot of depth up front. It may not be sexy but it seems to work.

I think we're two players away to be very honest. I think a veteran defenseman as an upgrade to Cube on the second pairing and another offensive piece up front. Well, that piece should be coming back next season and maybe with a season under their belts, Blum and/or Josi fill the need on the blue line. Solid teams are built over time and will last over time because of it. We have a pretty big window as young as we are. All we have to do is keep the pieces together. Let's see if the owners and Poile can do just that.

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12-13-2011, 11:06 PM
  #113
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Glenn, I think you and others are missing the point.... deadline deal rentals dont EVER net huge returns, no matter how good the player being traded is

are you freaking kidding me that Kovy and even an older Forsberg werent more valuable than Suter?? Suter is VERY good but isnt so head and shoulders above everyone else that a team will throw the farm at us to get him for a month and a half plus playoffs....

at the deadline Suter will get us a 1st and at most a pick/prospect and/or a roster player who isnt spectacular... if we ask for more GM's will probably pass and trade less for another defenseman who wont be as good as Suter but will be good enough at a much better price

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12-14-2011, 06:28 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Glenn, I think you and others are missing the point.... deadline deal rentals dont EVER net huge returns, no matter how good the player being traded is

are you freaking kidding me that Kovy and even an older Forsberg werent more valuable than Suter?? Suter is VERY good but isnt so head and shoulders above everyone else that a team will throw the farm at us to get him for a month and a half plus playoffs....

at the deadline Suter will get us a 1st and at most a pick/prospect and/or a roster player who isnt spectacular... if we ask for more GM's will probably pass and trade less for another defenseman who wont be as good as Suter but will be good enough at a much better price
I guess we'll have to disagree then. Suter is playing like a top 5 defenseman in the league this year and he's entering his prime. Kovy, as good as he is, is not a top 5 guy at his position. If Witt and Fisher can garner a 1st, I would think a franchise defenseman can garner a little more than a first and the package you offered above.

I see what you're saying but at the end of the day, if Suter is on the market, you don't think they'd be a bidding war between teams to land him? Franchise defensemen don't come along too often.

I'd just prefer that we re-sign him and call it a day.

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12-14-2011, 07:22 AM
  #115
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If Suter is on the market, he will be the prize of that market, and there will be teams offering up multiple draft picks and prospects for him. At the bare minimum we get a 1st round pick and blue chip prospect. In reality, there is a good chance we get multiple 1st round picks and possibly, a blue chip prospect, and even other pieces. Suter IS head and shoulders better than just about every defensemen in this league, and if made available, is easily affordable into ANY salary cap structure. Don't kid yourself.

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12-14-2011, 07:51 AM
  #116
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Enoch, name me a player who has ever garnered multiple first rounders at the deadline. While I agree suter is a "franchise defenseman" as a ufa at the deadline nobody would pay franchise price.
I just hope we never have to find out...

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12-14-2011, 08:15 AM
  #117
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Enoch, name me a player who has ever garnered multiple first rounders at the deadline. While I agree suter is a "franchise defenseman" as a ufa at the deadline nobody would pay franchise price.
I just hope we never have to find out...
After losing both Hossa and Kovy as UFA deadline deals, I agree with this. I know the obvious rebuttal would be "Poile is no Waddell", which is waaaay true, however I still don't believe that Suter fetches more than a 1st, a really good prospect, and a 2nd/3rd liner.

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12-14-2011, 08:20 AM
  #118
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In a two team scenario, no, Suter wouldn't bring in a franchise changing return. But you forget that these things can be driven up when multiple teams are involved.

While we still aren't looking at a deal that will set up the Preds for several seasons, we can make a good deal that minimizes the loss and adds something reliable and some potential.

I'm thinking, a solid vet D-man, which a team trading for Suter would definitely be able to part with since they are obviously upgrading to Suter.

Then we're probably talking a forward from the other team who is on their 3rd line who could likely play well on the Preds 2nd line.

And then a draft pick, which almost has to be a first, even if it's in the 20's.
============================================

I'll go wild and draw up scenario's for the top 10 Eastern Conference teams... (flame suit on)

10. Winnipeg Jets:
F - Tim Stapleton
D - Johnny Oduya
1st Round Draft Pick

9. Montreal Canadiens:
F - Lars Eller
D - Chris Campoli
1st Round Draft Pick

8. New Jersey Devils:
F - David Clarkson
D - Kurtis Foster
1st Round Draft Pick

7. Buffalo Sabres:
F - Jochen Hecht
D - Jordan Leopold
1st Round Draft Pick

6. Toronto Maple Leafs:
F - Clarke MacArthur
D - John-Michael Liles
1st Round Draft Pick

5. Pittsburgh Penguins:
F - Tyler Kennedy
D - Matt Niskanen
1st Round Draft Pick

4. New York Rangers:
F - Artem Anisimov
D - Michael Del Zotto
1st Round Draft Pick

3. Florida Panthers:
F - Sean Bergenheim
D - Mike Weaver
1st Round Draft Pick

2. Boston Bruins
F - Benoit Pouliot
D - Andrew Ference
1st Round Draft Pick

1. Philadelphia Flyers
F - Wayne Simmonds
D - Andrej Meszaros
1st Round Draft Pick


Obviously there is a TON of room for amendment. Many teams would not make good trading partners. Some teams would not give up what it would take to trade for Suter and some teams can't put together a package attractive enough to trade for Suter. But I think this is the type of deal that it would have to be, I don't even want to speculate on what it would take to trade him in conference (or into the new conference).

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12-14-2011, 08:23 AM
  #119
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The only blockbuster trade near the deadline in the past couple of years was the Kovy deal. Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier, and a 1st for a star scoring forward. Cormier is still in the AHL, Bergfors is no longer with the organization, the pick was then used as part of the deal for Byfuglien. They still lost the player with very little in return.

The only way I see Suter moved during the season requires a couple of triggers being met. First, it must be 100% certain that he will not sign here. If there is any possibility at all of retaining him, keep him on the roster. Second, the team has to be all but eliminated from the post season. Shipping him out creates a hole on the back end that is probably too much for the team to overcome and remain competitive this season. If both of those triggers are met, then you start shopping him around looking for a top five pick, a roster player, and a prospect at a minimum. A late first rounder and a guy who will spend the next few years in the AHL does us no good.

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12-14-2011, 08:32 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The only blockbuster trade near the deadline in the past couple of years was the Kovy deal. Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier, and a 1st for a star scoring forward. Cormier is still in the AHL, Bergfors is no longer with the organization, the pick was then used as part of the deal for Byfuglien. They still lost the player with very little in return.
To go back a little further, Hossa and Pascal Dupuis got:

1st (#24)
Colby Armstrong (meh)
Erik Christensen (awful)
Angelo Esposito (I believe currently playing for the Panthers AHL team)

Oh, and that #24 pick is still playing for Michigan State and is awful.

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12-14-2011, 08:34 AM
  #121
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10. Winnipeg Jets:
F - Tim Stapleton
D - Johnny Oduya
1st Round Draft Pick
Without going through all of them, I respectfully decline this one. Stapleton is a borderline 4th liner and Oduya has regressed over the last couple years, though I believe is having a decent season this year.

I like the Rangers offer, I don't think they part with Anisimov.

Best return is the Flyers, but I also don't see them parting with that package.

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12-14-2011, 09:08 AM
  #122
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Even if the return doesn't pan out in the long run, you still have to get SOMETHING if you know he's not re-signing. Letting him walk ensures that you get zero value in return.

Now, does Suter let Poile know that he's not going to sign? or does he string Poile along so that he can hit UFA and have his pick?

The best scenario of course is that a new contract is announced and we forget all of this speculation ever occurred.

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12-14-2011, 09:09 AM
  #123
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Without going through all of them, I respectfully decline this one. Stapleton is a borderline 4th liner and Oduya has regressed over the last couple years, though I believe is having a decent season this year.

I like the Rangers offer, I don't think they part with Anisimov.

Best return is the Flyers, but I also don't see them parting with that package.
Like I said, the all need tweaking, I doubt any of those deals would happen. Just giving examples of the type of players are most likely to be coming this way.

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12-14-2011, 09:23 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
Even if the return doesn't pan out in the long run, you still have to get SOMETHING if you know he's not re-signing. Letting him walk ensures that you get zero value in return.

Now, does Suter let Poile know that he's not going to sign? or does he string Poile along so that he can hit UFA and have his pick?

The best scenario of course is that a new contract is announced and we forget all of this speculation ever occurred.
I agree that the best scenario is that we get an announcement saying Suter signed a long term deal.

If it becomes obvious that he's gone, when and how to move him becomes a delicate matter. If we're still in contention for a playoff spot it doesn't necessarily make sense to move him during the season. That tactic could prove counterproductive by opening up a gaping hole on the blueline that in turn costs us that post season possibility. In that scenario it might make more sense to keep him through the playoffs then trade his rights for a couple of picks or prospects before the draft ... reminiscent of Timonen's departure from the club, or Ellis.

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12-14-2011, 10:24 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
Even if the return doesn't pan out in the long run, you still have to get SOMETHING if you know he's not re-signing. Letting him walk ensures that you get zero value in return.

Now, does Suter let Poile know that he's not going to sign? or does he string Poile along so that he can hit UFA and have his pick?

The best scenario of course is that a new contract is announced and we forget all of this speculation ever occurred.
the "something" you get by not trading him is Ryan Suter in the lineup for a late season/playoff run.

its not "nothing" and as i said before if having him lets us in the playoffs and especially if we win a round, the extra money wil at least help us sign a replacement.

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