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Old
12-13-2011, 06:16 PM
  #51
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IMO, as someone who plays hockey as well as being a fan, most of the suggestions in here are either ridiculous and would never work or would change the game too much. I think concussions in hockey have probably been a problem for a lot longer than you think, but people are just starting to realize it now. I think its just the nature of the game. Its extremely physical and fast. Trying to cut down on the head hunting is one thing that can help (though I think there should be stiffer penalties then there are now) but Claude Giroux's injury wouldnt have been avoided with any of the stuff you guys are talking about, except maybe a better helmet which is probably where there is the most room for improvement. There are guys out there in the NHL wearing helmets that originally came out like 10 years ago. Putting more R&D into something like the M11 and helmets in general and enforcing better standards for them is probably one of the easiest and most effective things they can do. Guys leave their chin straps way loose and they are always coming off and sliding around not allowing the helmet to perform to its fullest potential. Dont get me started on the guys who play the whole game with their mouth guard hanging out of their mouth.

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Old
12-13-2011, 06:30 PM
  #52
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Just wanted you guys to know that, as a Montrealer, I'm seriously upset to hear about Giroux. I'm a Habs fan, but really like the Flyers this year and cannot believe what's happening to your team. It's bad for you, naturally, but it's bad for hockey as a whole. All we can hope is that your bad team's bad luck helps push the league towards some action -- better helmets + chin guards, softer elbow/shoulder padding. Something's gotta give, besides players' skulls.

Anyway, I sincerely hope Giroux, Pronger and Schenn can come back healthy for a strong finish.

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Old
12-13-2011, 08:12 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Bold Prediction:

Giroux will still be leading the points race when he returns from this concussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAUCE View Post
that is a dumb prediction.
Really?

He skated today and will be re-evaluated on Thursday.

Everyone is making this out to be a super serious concussion, but nobody really knows anything.

I expect Giroux to make his return in our Monday night game against the Avalanche, and it's not a stretch to think he'll still hold his lead (which is currently @ 3pts over Kessel, 5 pts over Sedin).

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Old
12-13-2011, 08:35 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Really?

He skated today and will be re-evaluated on Thursday.

Everyone is making this out to be a super serious concussion, but nobody really knows anything.

I expect Giroux to make his return in our Monday night game against the Avalanche, and it's not a stretch to think he'll still hold his lead (which is currently @ 3pts over Kessel, 5 pts over Sedin).
Whenever Giroux + doctors + Holmgren + trainers + family + teammates ALL give him the okay to play, I want Laviolette to sit him two more weeks on top of that.

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12-13-2011, 08:58 PM
  #55
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Equipment won't matter with the speed these guys are hitting each other at

Get rid of the ticky tack obstructtion mandate. The league went from one extreme to another, and now we are seeing the other side of it imo

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Old
12-13-2011, 10:50 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Really?

He skated today and will be re-evaluated on Thursday.

Everyone is making this out to be a super serious concussion, but nobody really knows anything.

I expect Giroux to make his return in our Monday night game against the Avalanche, and it's not a stretch to think he'll still hold his lead (which is currently @ 3pts over Kessel, 5 pts over Sedin).
He skated today and felt terrible.

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Old
12-13-2011, 11:17 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
He skated today and felt terrible.
They don't let you skate unless you have no/minimal symptoms off the ice though.

Had he been feeling like total crap, he would've been sent home and told to rest in the dark.

The fact that he was allowed to skate is an excellent sign. Nobody would let him near the ice if they thought he had a severe concussion.

You can continue freaking out and assuming the worst, I'll look at things un-biased and infer what I can.

As I said, the fact that he was allowed to skate is an excellent sign.

The fact that he will be re-evaluated Thursday is another excellent sign. Notice how Pronger is going to see a specialist while Giroux is being re-evaluated every 2 days? That should give you some insight into which one is more serious.

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Old
12-13-2011, 11:20 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
They don't let you skate unless you have no/minimal symptoms off the ice though.

Had he been feeling like total crap, he would've been sent home and told to rest in the dark.

The fact that he was allowed to skate is an excellent sign. Nobody would let him near the ice if they thought he had a severe concussion.

You can continue freaking out and assuming the worst, I'll look at things un-biased and infer what I can.

As I said, the fact that he was allowed to skate is an excellent sign.

The fact that he will be re-evaluated Thursday is another excellent sign. Notice how Pronger is going to see a specialist while Giroux is being re-evaluated every 2 days? That should give you some insight into which one is more serious.
Well to be fair it's only his first baseline skate and he didn't exactly pass with flying colors. Nothing wrong with being optimistic though. I think the team continuing to win will help Giroux's healing process believe it or not. Just a hunch especially since Giroux has pretty strong will power as well.

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Old
12-13-2011, 11:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Whenever Giroux + doctors + Holmgren + trainers + family + teammates ALL give him the okay to play, I want Laviolette to sit him two more weeks on top of that.
No thanks. This would just be pure stupidity. In order to play, he needs to pass an impact test, he needs to have no symptoms, plus he has to pass a billion other tests, have a clear MRI, a clean CT Scan, etc.

Giving him 2 weeks on top of that wouldn't do a darn thing... except give us 2 less weeks of Giroux. If the doctors clear him to play and he feels fine with no symptoms, then he plays immediately... no reason for him not to.

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12-13-2011, 11:33 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Well to be fair it's only his first baseline skate and he didn't exactly pass with flying colors. Nothing wrong with being optimistic though. I think the team continuing to win will help Giroux's healing process believe it or not. Just a hunch especially since Giroux has pretty strong will power as well.
Dunno what you're talking about. There is no "baseline skate".

Baseline testing is off the ice cognitive testing. They take a "baseline" of your ability to solve problems, logically reason things out, etc. They do this when you are 100% fully healthy before the season starts. Basically, they get your normal score on a test.

Then if you ever have a concussion, they give you the same test and compare it to your baseline and you need to reach your baseline score (along w/ passing a multitude of other tests) in order to get back to playing.

The skating thing has nothing to do w/ baseline testing.

The skating thing was just because I guess they wanted to see how Giroux would react b/c he must've been close to his baseline when they tested him on Monday.

If they felt Giroux's concussion and his symptoms were serious, they would've never let him lace up a pair of skates and go out onto the ice. It's a serious liability / health risk. He would've been resting @ home in a dark room.

The fact that they let him / wanted him to skate shows that it's a lot less serious than most here are assuming.

Notice Pronger... he's completely shut down and going to see a specialist. This indicates it is more serious. Giroux on the other hand doesn't have an appointment w/ a specialist, hasn't been shut down, and is going to be re-evaluated thursday.

People are blowing this whole thing WAYYYY out of proportion. Giroux will return before the WC and the only consequence of the whole thing may be that Giroux loses his lead for the Art Ross (oh the humanity!!!!)

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:06 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Dunno what you're talking about. There is no "baseline skate".

Baseline testing is off the ice cognitive testing. They take a "baseline" of your ability to solve problems, logically reason things out, etc. They do this when you are 100% fully healthy before the season starts. Basically, they get your normal score on a test.

Then if you ever have a concussion, they give you the same test and compare it to your baseline and you need to reach your baseline score (along w/ passing a multitude of other tests) in order to get back to playing.

The skating thing has nothing to do w/ baseline testing.

The skating thing was just because I guess they wanted to see how Giroux would react b/c he must've been close to his baseline when they tested him on Monday.

If they felt Giroux's concussion and his symptoms were serious, they would've never let him lace up a pair of skates and go out onto the ice. It's a serious liability / health risk. He would've been resting @ home in a dark room.

The fact that they let him / wanted him to skate shows that it's a lot less serious than most here are assuming.

Notice Pronger... he's completely shut down and going to see a specialist. This indicates it is more serious. Giroux on the other hand doesn't have an appointment w/ a specialist, hasn't been shut down, and is going to be re-evaluated thursday.

People are blowing this whole thing WAYYYY out of proportion. Giroux will return before the WC and the only consequence of the whole thing may be that Giroux loses his lead for the Art Ross (oh the humanity!!!!)
It was his first skate...I say baseline skate not in the clinical sense but in the fact that skating and exerting yourself on the ice is one measurement or point of reference among the other more formal clinical ones. That's all. Pronger got his results from actually playing a few games when he came back from the eye injury.

Even the Flyers postgame brass like Clement were talking about the need to get some idea of the gravity of the situation by going on the ice. The fact that he didn't feel great while on the ice is something to consider...there is no blowing out of proportion. If the next skate he feels improvement and so on..then it will be more encouraging.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:15 AM
  #62
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In reply to the OP:




It seemed fitting.

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Old
12-14-2011, 06:52 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
I'd make the rink bigger--said this in another thread a few weeks ago. Owners won't do it because it cuts down on seating, but making the rinks bigger means more skating, less contact in general.
There are quite a high number of concussions in European hockey as well. I doubt bigger ice surface is any kind of solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Less obstruction = faster play

Plus the elbow pads.
Those things are rock hard anymore.
Yeah, the elbow and shoulder pads are almost like weapons today. They need to be changed I think.

As for the obstruction... it would kind of suck if that is (a part of) what is necessary to do to limit the concussions, but it might be a prize we'll have to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevUpThoseFlyers View Post
A better helmet, with a properly worn chinstrap, can absorb a lot of the impact and reduce the chance of concussions. Of course, some people are still going to get concussions but they won't happen as frequently.
Is there any rule in place about that chin strap right now? There might need to be one, a lot of players have the helmet on so loose it's not much of protection really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Kinda makes up my mind for myself when it comes to getting back in to playing hockey after having PCS. I've been symptom free for 2 years now and really wanting to get back in goal. But with all this going on, I'm going to stay retired. My sweet helmet is going on the mantle.
Sorry to hear that. It sucks having to stop playing due to injuries no matter what level one is on. For me it was the knees that gave up (I've had a few concussions as well, mostly at a young age though (I was a very reckless child) and I never suffered that much pcs that I'm aware of).

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Old
12-14-2011, 07:04 AM
  #64
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Changing the Helmets would only do so much and not enough.
Bigger ice surfaces would again only do so much, probably create more space, sure, but also more space to create speed.
The equipment should go back to leather instead of football stuff - it's re-donk-q-lus.

The brain is being thrown around in the head, as someone mentioned, like a yolk of an egg (another thread) you can shake an egg and still scrambled the yolk without breaking the shell.

I think if the players wore smaller and leather equipment they would think twice about hitting as hard as they do b/c they'd feel it as well.

ANY hit from behind automatic 30 game suspension - if the injured player is out longer the player suspended sits out along side of them.
(unless the player turns at the last minute)

As well Brain Burke mentioned a 'bear hug' type thing if players are close to the boards to relieve some impact and injury...

Hybrid icing!!

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Old
12-14-2011, 08:34 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Something needs to be done. What? How can these be prevented?

Enough is enough. Even Mike Richards is sidelined with a concussion now. Sidney Crosby. OK. Hockey fans are convinced, there is a problem.....NOW WHAT? My favorite players of the past 20 years, top 5, all taken down by concussions:
Eric Lindros - forced to retire
Keith Primeau - forced to retire
Ian Lapierriere - forced to retire
Chris Pronger?
Claude Giroux?


Current list of players out with concussion (Epidemic):
Marc Savard
Daniel Paille
Nathan Gerbe
Mark Olver
Peter Mueller
Ryan Wilson
Radek Martinek
Marcel Goc
Guillaume Latendresse
Josh Harding
Nino Niederreiter
Marc Staal
Michael Sauer
Ian Lapierriere
Chris Pronger
Claude Giroux
Brayden Schenn
Kurt Sauer
Nick Peterson
Zdynek Michalek
Sidney Crosby
Kris Letang
Robert Bortuzzo
Andy McDonald
Martin St. Louis
Cody Hodgson
Jay Beagle
Mike Richards
It's an issue because doctor's are more able to diagnose a concussion than 5, even 3 years ago. It's not an epidemic, just doctor's are recognizing it more.

Although using the list for dramatic effect, you should consider applying for a job with FOX News.

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Old
12-14-2011, 08:34 AM
  #66
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If the ice is bigger there will be fewer collisions. The "more room to build up speed" counterargument makes no sense, as we already have Charging (building up speed with strides) and if the ice is bigger there is more space to defend and hence likely to be less energy spent trying to run someone.

Ten players in a confined space is going to produce violence.

Make the players bigger, stronger, and faster, and outfit them with harder and lighter equipment, and duh - it can't really surprise anyone that prevalence of concussion has increased.

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Old
12-14-2011, 08:53 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Whenever Giroux + doctors + Holmgren + trainers + family + teammates ALL give him the okay to play, I want Laviolette to sit him two more weeks on top of that.
And once Laviolette is OK, Ed Snider should ensure his asset sits another 2 weeks to ensure the Flyers do not destroy yet another cup contending team. Caution. There is NO WAY Giroux comes back before Winter Classic. February is my guess. if he is lucky.

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12-14-2011, 08:57 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
It's an issue because doctor's are more able to diagnose a concussion than 5, even 3 years ago. It's not an epidemic, just doctor's are recognizing it more.

Although using the list for dramatic effect, you should consider applying for a job with FOX News.
For dramatic effect, do you mean by simply posting the list of players who are currently out with a concussion. Go look at the league injury report, almost half of the players listed are out with head or concussion injuries. Look at our team. Pronger. Giroux. Schenn. That is not too much? OK, it is just a recency effect then right? But then there is Primeau.....Lindros.....

Your right, who cares. Not like it is a big deal.

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12-14-2011, 10:17 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
For dramatic effect, do you mean by simply posting the list of players who are currently out with a concussion. Go look at the league injury report, almost half of the players listed are out with head or concussion injuries. Look at our team. Pronger. Giroux. Schenn. That is not too much? OK, it is just a recency effect then right? But then there is Primeau.....Lindros.....

Your right, who cares. Not like it is a big deal.
Which you pretty much proved my point. That list is so "big" and this is an "epidemic" because we've learned to diagnose them better while taking stricter precautions. This list would be exactly the same, maybe worse, 10 years ago if they knew how to diagnose brain injuries then like we do today.

If you think that the players of the 80's and 90's who "never got a concussion" never REALLY got a concussion at least once, you're probably misguided in your assumptions.

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12-14-2011, 10:31 AM
  #70
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A few people have touched on it, but I think equipment is the big thing.

1) Require mouthguards, and good ones. Some are better than others.
2) Replace elbow pads and shoulder pads to be softer material, as opposed to hard plastic armor.

I realize #2 would never have prevented a semi-freak thing like Giroux getting hit in the head with a knee; but more often than not it's a shoulder or elbow doing the damage.

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12-14-2011, 10:47 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Which you pretty much proved my point. That list is so "big" and this is an "epidemic" because we've learned to diagnose them better while taking stricter precautions. This list would be exactly the same, maybe worse, 10 years ago if they knew how to diagnose brain injuries then like we do today.

If you think that the players of the 80's and 90's who "never got a concussion" never REALLY got a concussion at least once, you're probably misguided in your assumptions.
Who gives a crap who got a concussion in the 80's? I don't. I don't care who gets one today to be honest. HOWEVER - I do care when players are removed from the Philadelphia Flyers for extended periods. If a concussion was a minor injury that forced players to sit a week, I wouldn't give a crap (the 80's/90's); but since one concussion is now a HUGE career threatening injury, I am concerned.

P.S. More concussion news. Milan Michalek is now out with a concussion. That makes the leading scorer in the NHL, the leading point producer in the NHL, the face of the league - all out with concussions for extended periods of time.

This my friend - IS A PROBLEM!

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12-14-2011, 11:28 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Who gives a crap who got a concussion in the 80's? I don't. I don't care who gets one today to be honest. HOWEVER - I do care when players are removed from the Philadelphia Flyers for extended periods. If a concussion was a minor injury that forced players to sit a week, I wouldn't give a crap (the 80's/90's); but since one concussion is now a HUGE career threatening injury, I am concerned.

P.S. More concussion news. Milan Michalek is now out with a concussion. That makes the leading scorer in the NHL, the leading point producer in the NHL, the face of the league - all out with concussions for extended periods of time.

This my friend - IS A PROBLEM!
Your missing the point. People in the 80s played through these things and for the most part the majority of them were fine. The point hes trying to make is that 20 years ago a lot of these guys would still be playing now and not out with concussions because they wouldn't have been diagnosed with it. Right now everything in the slightest will be diagnosed with the concussion so that's why there are so much people out.

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12-14-2011, 11:40 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
And once Laviolette is OK, Ed Snider should ensure his asset sits another 2 weeks to ensure the Flyers do not destroy yet another cup contending team. Caution. There is NO WAY Giroux comes back before Winter Classic. February is my guess. if he is lucky.
I'm game.

We can win without Giroux. We have the talent.

We want him for the playoffs, so Giroux can take as many months as he needs.

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12-14-2011, 12:24 PM
  #74
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While I 100% agree that one of the biggest differences in today's game is that they are simply being diagnosed at a higher rate, I still believe one other glaring difference is the equipment.

Just look at what is worn/used today as opposed to in the 80s.

-Players are faster, and shoot harder because equipment allows for it.
- They are wearing plastic armor as opposed padded leather to protect them.
- AND players are just bigger now. Athletes in today's day and age have access to training, and a level of dedication that was uncommon 20-30 years ago. It's the same in every sport. Athletes are just bigger and faster than they have EVER been.

If you take bigger athletes, moving faster than they ever have, using equipment that can almost be considered a weapon (and also provides a certain degree of fearlessness), you are going to have head injuries. Their bones are protected by armor, but their brain is still going to move.

It's the same reason we seem to see more player's turning their back to hits nowadays. You rarely saw players turn their back to someone and get boarded 30 years ago; but we see it every game now, because players have a certain level of fearlessness because of their equipment.

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12-14-2011, 12:33 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
While I 100% agree that one of the biggest differences in today's game is that they are simply being diagnosed at a higher rate, I still believe one other glaring difference is the equipment.

Just look at what is worn/used today as opposed to in the 80s.

-Players are faster, and shoot harder because equipment allows for it.
- They are wearing plastic armor as opposed padded leather to protect them.
- AND players are just bigger now. Athletes in today's day and age have access to training, and a level of dedication that was uncommon 20-30 years ago. It's the same in every sport. Athletes are just bigger and faster than they have EVER been.

If you take bigger athletes, moving faster than they ever have, using equipment that can almost be considered a weapon (and also provides a certain degree of fearlessness), you are going to have head injuries. Their bones are protected by armor, but their brain is still going to move.

It's the same reason we seem to see more player's turning their back to hits nowadays. You rarely saw players turn their back to someone and get boarded 30 years ago; but we see it every game now, because players have a certain level of fearlessness because of their equipment.
Pretty much sums it up. /thread

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