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Would all those who mocked me for saying Desharnais could make it in the NHL stand up

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Old
12-14-2011, 09:25 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I guess you would call it chemistry because that's what DD has with a Cole and Max Pax. This is what I call a genuine line working, where on their own the guys wouldn't be that stellar but together the right elements makes it a producing combo. Especially Cole/DD. Cole is not the best scorer but grinds like Hell, DD can't get physical in any shape or form, he's like a toddler on the ice, but Cole creating room and DD's excellent passing ability results in goals.

I still think DD should be on the wings, though because of his size. Habs should think about trying Eller on the first two lines, he was stellar last night and only wants to play more. You could have DD-Eller-Cole and Max Pac-Plek-Andrei K.
Guess who is gonna pout ?

Cammy baby...

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12-14-2011, 09:29 AM
  #102
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And FWIW, re: big productive center, I really think it's worth sitting on Eller to see where he'll be in ~2 years offensively. A lot of young talent is going to be filtering into the habs at that point, some big contracts will be relieved, and maybe, just maybe, we'll have our big productive center for cheap. I think he's got it in him to be like Pleks, just bigger, stronger, and more prolific offensively.

Eller has the same iron will that Pleks has, but way more technical skill offensively. There are some small fundamental things that hold Pleks back more than his size: his stick handling and puck control for one, and his shot for two. Eller has a laser, however, he needs to work on his release, and his puck control is probably the best on the team.

I think next year we'll see Eller start to emerge offensively.

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12-14-2011, 09:31 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Guess who is gonna pout ?

Cammy baby...
Cammalleri's gotta start being Playoffs cammi because his last season, and this season, have been just horri-awful.

His first season was awesome, I thought. Very memorable.

Now wtf happened?

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12-14-2011, 09:31 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Disagree. Having fast wingers with size actually opens up space for DD to be able to make those kinds of plays in the first place. Without them he lacks the speed and size and would be dominated. Half the time DD is in a position to pass in the first place cause of their work in the offensive zone anyways. If you think DD is gaining the zone making space for them etc all on his own you're crazy dude. That simply isn't the case.

Also half the time every scorer in the NHL misses a pass people feed them in the slot. You think that it's only Desharnais missing out on points cause his wingers miss out on a goal? That can be said for any center in the god damn league even Crosby. If it weren't for that every game would be 12-10. That's hardly a concrete argument. If anything the "lolwut" is for anyone who actually thinks this guy is the main reason his wingers are scoring. Pacioretty was putting up numbers with Gomez dude... Gomez... you think he can't with David freaking Desharnais who is better?

What about Cole, you know that guy who is scoring on the same pace he always has. You think it's a direct result of Desharnais? Really? It's more logical the guy who is a borderline rookie is making these guys produce than the guys who have proven they can produce without him? For real dude? You're kidding right? And the mere fact that you say what you say makes you sound like you haven't watched Erik Cole all year. Some of his goals he basically took them all the way up the ice burned the D and scored, but yeah... that's a direct result of Desharnais Nobody else on the team can make a pass in the defensive/neutral zone

I'm not saying he's bad but some people really need to get off his dick, he's good but not amazing.
DD enters the zone a lot with the puck and manages to keep it. Lots of other teams, he digs it out from off the boards, wins the battle and sets up a play. He makes play himself because of his vision. Yes, sometimes Cole and Pacioretty give him space - but sometimes he makes his own space because he's so smart.

No one is "on his dick." People are thrilled with his progression into a legitmate second line centre (45th in center scoring this season).

Pacioretty is a "borderline" rookie in the same sense. He's stated many times that he loves playing Desharnais and Desharnais is the best center he's ever played with. I doubt that's changed much now since he'd played with Koivu when he said it (and probably Plekanec too).

He's also not saying every goal Cole scores is because of Desharnais. But Desharnais has taken the puck up the ice and scored himself too. But that was a direct result of wingers, I bet.

Let's just dig into his stats among centers;

Points; 45th
+/-; 34th
Faceoff; 51.2%, 68th (centres who have played 15+ games)
Blocked Shots: 51st (with little PK time)
TOI: 48th

I know It's not just about stats, but those all look pretty good.

DD is going to produce even more with Kaberle here now because he has someone else with vision to help him open up the ice.

He's a middle of the pack second line centre already. He's going to be a top-flight second line centre within a year or two.

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12-14-2011, 09:32 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Actually, he's on pace for more than that. Good math though.
18 points in 31 games.

82/31 = +- 2.7, rounding up.

2.7 X 18 = 48-49 points. Sorry I said 45, even though he won't actually play 82 games dude.

No calculator but hey, close enough.

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12-14-2011, 09:32 AM
  #106
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I am sitting down. I do not feel the need to stand up.

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12-14-2011, 09:33 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Guess who is gonna pout ?

Cammy baby...
Crap you're right, completly forgot about him. It seems like Cammy/Gomez/Gio are beginning to be worth less and less to the team, though. Gio would be the perfect third liner but I don't know if the others would accept these roles.

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12-14-2011, 09:35 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I guess you would call it chemistry because that's what DD has with a Cole and Max Pax. This is what I call a genuine line working, where on their own the guys wouldn't be that stellar but together the right elements makes it a producing combo. Especially Cole/DD. Cole is not the best scorer but grinds like Hell, DD can't get physical in any shape or form, he's like a toddler on the ice, but Cole creating room and DD's excellent passing ability results in goals.

I still think DD should be on the wings, though because of his size. Habs should think about trying Eller on the first two lines, he was stellar last night and only wants to play more. You could have DD-Eller-Cole and Max Pac-Plek-Andrei K.
And we'd win even less faceoffs..

Desharnais is our only current centre above 50%.

Noke is above, but I'm not sure what his actually stats are with MTL, probably close to 50% since he dropped nearly 7% since coming to MTL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
18 points in 31 games.

82/31 = +- 2.7, rounding up.

2.7 X 18 = 48-49 points. Sorry I said 45, even though he won't actually play 82 games dude.

No calculator but hey, close enough.
Why won't he play 82 games?

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12-14-2011, 09:35 AM
  #109
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We are terrible since the last 15 years...

Remember Turgeon, Damphousse and Koivu ? ...
Remember Lemaire, Mahovlich and Risebrough?

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12-14-2011, 09:37 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
And we'd win even less faceoffs..

Desharnais is our only current centre above 50%.

Noke is above, but I'm not sure what his actually stats are with MTL, probably close to 50% since he dropped nearly 7% since coming to MTL.

Let DD take the faceoffs and move on the left afterwards. I think Eller could get better at it, though.

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12-14-2011, 09:38 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Let DD take the faceoffs and move on the left afterwards. I think Eller could get better at it, though.
I think DD needs the freedom a center has to make plays though. Not sure how effective he'd be with less freedom. Although he looked great on Gomez-Gionta wing in the playoffs.

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12-14-2011, 09:42 AM
  #112
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what's interesting in DD's case is that it proves that SIZE does matter .

He's got 2 big wingers that provide him with the time and space he needs to exploit his talent.

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12-14-2011, 09:42 AM
  #113
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His wingers make him a lot more productive than he is.
I could make the argument that DD makes them look better. just last night how many times did he step up Max & Cole and they either fluffed, missed the net or were beaten by the goalie? DD is an elite player at setting up his wingers. I'd say he's in the top 20 in the league when it comes to that skill set. His creativity is out of this world.

Having said that, I agree he does get manhandled but it wouldn't surprise me one bit by this time next year he doesn't improve on that aspect of his game. This kid has been constantly improving since I first saw him three years ago.

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12-14-2011, 09:46 AM
  #114
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I could make the argument that DD makes them look better. just last night how many times did he step up Max & Cole and they either fluffed, missed the net or were beaten by the goalie?

maybe they just all compliment each other.

It's a balance -- some of DD's success is based on skill, some on the fact he's suited with his wingers, and the same can be said for Cole and Pac.

Put them (cole & pac) with Gomez and suddenly we have a kid who looks broken and an overpaid UFA...lol

A good line is like a successful marriage of 3 people... in order to make it work, 1 has to be the giver, 1 has to be the taker, and 1 has to be the leader that keeps things in order.

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12-14-2011, 09:50 AM
  #115
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maybe they just all compliment each other.

It's a balance -- some of DD's success is based on skill, some on the fact he's suited with his wingers, and the same can be said for Cole and Pac.

Put them (cole & pac) with Gomez and suddenly we have a kid who looks broken and an overpaid UFA...lol

A good line is like a successful marriage of 3 people... in order to make it work, 1 has to be the giver, 1 has to be the taker, and 1 has to be the leader that keeps things in order.
Exactly.

Put Cole with Gomez.

Cole is still going to make his nice rushes that he does with DD and score the odd goal. But he'll never get set-up again, even if he creates space.

Pacioretty is just a beast and scores whenever he wants too with whomever he wants too.

I wouldn't mind if they gave Plekanec Pacioretty and put Cammalleri with DD full-time. The line is going to be a bit more of a liability because Cammalleri plays less defense than Juha Lind but it might get Plekanec and whomever rolling.

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12-14-2011, 09:52 AM
  #116
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I don't get the obsession with the "can't win with player X as a # 1 / # 2 / # 3 centre". Where is it written that you need a gigantic 85 point Selke candidate to centre the second line if you want to win a championship?

Look no further than our last cup. # 2 centre was Stephan Lebeau, perhaps two inches taller but infinitely wimpier than Desharnais. Behind him was # 3 Paul DiPietro, also very much undersized. Yet we still won the Cup.
We had Damphousse and Carbo on that team, remember? Yeah like this team has them right now. We're just as good at center. Not.

Oh, and I did not ever say 'giant selke 85 point center'. Don't put words in my mouth, I said productive 60 point 1A/B center, which we do not have now, and DD is not that guy on a contending team.

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12-14-2011, 09:58 AM
  #117
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I think DD needs the freedom a center has to make plays though. Not sure how effective he'd be with less freedom. Although he looked great on Gomez-Gionta wing in the playoffs.

Yea that's what i'm basing my argument on, I thought he looked BETTER on the wing playing with Gomy and Gio.

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12-14-2011, 10:04 AM
  #118
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I wouldn't mind if they gave Plekanec Pacioretty and put Cammalleri with DD full-time. The line is going to be a bit more of a liability because Cammalleri plays less defense than Juha Lind but it might get Plekanec and whomever rolling.
meh, i hope they don't change it around.

Pac and DD have a history... and Cole brings an additional size, speed.. and experience. It's a perfect line.

DD would set-up Cammy and still rake-up points, but he's going to get burned more often defensively with Cammy on his line.

Cammy is best suited with Plekanec, because Pleky has the defensive game to make-up for the liability that is Cammy.

Pleky is by far superior to DD defensively - Cammy is our weakest link defensively. I'm not even sure why he plays the PK.

OT: Why does Cammy play the PK ???

Our PK is working in spite of Cammy, not because of him.

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12-14-2011, 10:05 AM
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Yea that's what i'm basing my argument on, I thought he looked BETTER on the wing playing with Gomy and Gio.
I wouldn't mind trying that line a short leash when healthy, but I really think Gomez is done. He was okay when he came back, but he's got the Darche syndrome with JM. Gomer can be useful as a 3rd line winger with limited minutes, but JM is always going to find a way to give him 16-17 minutes a night.

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12-14-2011, 10:07 AM
  #120
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And we'd win even less faceoffs..

Desharnais is our only current center above 50%.

Noke is above, but I'm not sure what his actually stats are with MTL, probably close to 50% since he dropped nearly 7% since coming to MTL.


Why won't he play 82 games?
Now you'e splitting hairs. Chances are he gets hurt a few games, come on. But in fairness I'll also say he could play 82 and pot 55 points.

Still don't think he's second line C on a cup team though. Sorry.

1. He can't dominate the superb 2nd line centers on at least 10 teams in the NHL.
2. We need way more goals to be a contender, and we need 165-170 points min from our 1-3 centers to get those goals. Pleks, DD and Eller will not get that. Not this year, and not next year.

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12-14-2011, 10:08 AM
  #121
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meh, i hope they don't change it around.

Pac and DD have a history... and Cole brings an additional size, speed.. and experience. It's a perfect line.

DD would set-up Cammy and still rake-up points, but he's going to get burned more often defensively with Cammy on his line.

Cammy is best suited with Plekanec, because Pleky has the defensive game to make-up for the liability that is Cammy.

Pleky is by far superior to DD defensively - Cammy is our weakest link defensively. I'm not even sure why he plays the PK.

OT: Why does Cammy play the PK ???

Our PK is working in spite of Cammy, not because of him.
Maybe JM is trying to spark some motivation and work ethic into Cammy? Not really sure.

And yes, Plekanec isn't just better than DD on defense.. he's better than anyone on our team minus Gorges.

Really, I don't know why this is such a big discussion. Desharnais isn't close to a problem on this team.. contender or not.

Cammalleri, Gionta, and Gomez have all been so bad and that's $19M of salary. 30%(ish). Imagine they were on or we had 3 20-point wingers who were good defensively in their place?

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12-14-2011, 10:12 AM
  #122
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I must admit I'm surprised by his performance so far this season.

What I doubt is the longevity of this type of player. It will only get harder for him as the opposition's attention on him grows. Can he handle the inevitable increased physicality?

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12-14-2011, 10:14 AM
  #123
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Now you'e splitting hairs. Chances are he gets hurt a few games, come on. But in fairness I'll also say he could play 82 and pot 55 points.

Still don't think he's second line C on a cup team though. Sorry.

1. He can't dominate the superb 2nd line centers on at least 10 teams in the NHL.
2. We need way more goals to be a contender, and we need 165-170 points min from our 1-3 centers to get those goals. Pleks, DD and Eller will not get that. Not this year, and not next year.
How many teams get 170 points from their top-3 centers?

#61-#90 in center scoring last year was 26points-37points.

There are few teams that have really good centers (Crosby, Malkin, Staal), but there are lots of competitive teams that don't come close to that.

Detroits top-3 centres last year had 135 points. Their #2 center had 39 points.

The Stanley Cup Champions didn't even hit your mark at 159 points (wouldn't even be that high if counted their real #3 center for 75% of the year instead of Peverly for the whole year).

Last year, we came within 1-goal of beating the Stanley Cup Champions; 121 points.

I think you're overshooting things a little there.

If Desharnais can hit 47-points, be a plus player, and keep his faceoffs above 50% - he's a key player to this team. If he hits 55 like you mention, that'd have put him at 28th in scoring last year.

PS. Some centers that DD is outscoring or tied with right now;
Jordan Staal, PM Bouchard, Tuomo Ruutu, David Krecji, Paul Statsny, Saku Koivu, Mikhail Grabovski, Nik Antropov, Jason Arnott, Antoine Vermette, Brandon Dubinsky, Jeff Carter, Dave Bolland, Ville Leino.

He's also within a couple points of;
Mike Riberio, Derek Roy, David Legwand, Eric Staal, Bryan Little...

Some solid 2nd line players in that bunch.


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12-14-2011, 10:21 AM
  #124
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Cammalleri, Gionta, and Gomez have all been so bad and that's $19M of salary. 30%(ish). Imagine they were on or we had 3 20-point wingers who were good defensively in their place?
what's sad is , with Gionta's absence , this team seemed unchanged to the observant eye.

Gionta is a captain that the team can still win without. I remember when Koivu was injured, this team lost its identity... With that said, his hard work and competitive streak is an addition, not a subtraction to this team.

Cammy on the other hand is soft to laughable extent. I'm surprised he's still healthy and that nobody has taken the liberty to finish her off. I mean, him.

Gomez? Well, Gomez is playing his best since arriving... that is, eating pop corn and bringing much humor to the press box

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12-14-2011, 10:24 AM
  #125
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Crap you're right, completly forgot about him. It seems like Cammy/Gomez/Gio are beginning to be worth less and less to the team, though. Gio would be the perfect third liner but I don't know if the others would accept these roles.
Our nice (small & over the hill) 19 million $ line !!!! Gainey's ultimate wet dream...

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