HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Official Tomas Kaberle Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-14-2011, 11:05 AM
  #1
overlords
Hfboards
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Trolling Brian Wilde
Posts: 26,411
vCash: 500
The Official Tomas Kaberle Thread

Continue here!

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:08 AM
  #2
llamateizer
Registered User
 
llamateizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Country:
Posts: 5,426
vCash: 500
Kaberle is saving JM and PG head

He is tradeable, so no need to panic in Kaberle's case.

llamateizer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:12 AM
  #3
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,943
vCash: 500
Gauthier sucks, Martin sucks, Molson is cheap blah blah blah...(summary of the 1st two threads, now you are up to date with the convo)

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:14 AM
  #4
overlords
Hfboards
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Trolling Brian Wilde
Posts: 26,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Gauthier sucks, Martin sucks, Molson is cheap blah blah blah...(summary of the 1st two threads, now you are up to date with the convo)
I was going to link back to them in the OP, you saved me the trouble.

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:14 AM
  #5
Lucius
Registered User
 
Lucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Halifax, NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,705
vCash: 500
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.

Lucius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:14 AM
  #6
The Kremelin Wall*
the krEMELIN wall
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,769
vCash: 500
As long as we get rid of Gomez I can live with Beaulieu being kept in the AHL an extra year. Hopefully Kaberle doesn't get top four minutes beyond this year.

The Kremelin Wall* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:21 AM
  #7
Playmaker09
Valar Morghulis
 
Playmaker09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,766
vCash: 500
Didn't doubt he'd be better than Spacek this year.

The next two years are where we'll be able to judge the trade. If he can play at a 4.25M/yr level over those two years, which he can far surpass if he returns to how he played in Toronto, then it's a clear win.

I think it can happen, but it's still early.

Playmaker09 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:24 AM
  #8
StellerEller
HFBoards Sponsor
 
StellerEller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oshawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,228
vCash: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.
I think Kabs is being used properly by JM (never thought id say that ever). JM likes to lock up our game tight early, so it could be just as possible that Kaberle wasn't used in favour of more defensive pairings, such as subban-gorges(our best one), and Gill-Diaz (who JM probably thinks will be a good defensive pairing simply cuz gill is there :faceplam. Not to mention he could easily gain his trust later. JM holds adherence to his system pretty highly, so perhaps Kaberle isnt trusted cuz hes new to the system. He was brought here to be a PP specialist and to be a 2nd-3rd pairing guy too, not a shutdown D.


Last edited by StellerEller: 12-14-2011 at 11:26 AM. Reason: wording
StellerEller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:26 AM
  #9
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.
Kaberle does NOT have a huge contract...he's getting paid fairly for what he brings and some would argue that offensively speaking, he might even been underpaid.

Tomas Kaberle has never been a top pairing defensman, he was in Toronto (and that's part of the reason they haven't made the playoffs in years) but that was out of necessity. He's not going to face the opponents top lines nor should he in Montreal.

He's getting paid like an offensive dman capable of putting up 40-50pts and running an efficient PP. He's 29th in the NHL for average cap hit for a defensman and is 46th among NHL dmen in terms of average salary being paid for this year.

As long as Kaberle puts up the points, there's nothing wrong with his salary...there are alot worse contracts for dmen out there

Roszival, Martin, Gonchar, Bieksa, Pitaknen, Komisarek, Hamhuis, Volchenkov, Timonen...ALL make more money than Kaberle.

While guys like J-M Liles, Ballard, Jovanoski, Streit, Regehr, Giordano, Whitney, Meszaros, Erhoff, Gilbert, Zdlicky, Wideman...ALL make about the same salary range of Kaberle (4.25M to 3.875M).

I've got no problem wiht the Habs paying Kaberle 4.25M if he's producing offensively, that puts him in the second group of defensman I listed below and no one expects those guys to be all-world dmen.

Tomas Kaberle isn't paid like a #1 dman, cause he's not...

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:27 AM
  #10
llamateizer
Registered User
 
llamateizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Country:
Posts: 5,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.
True, its like you are asking Gill to score in the PP
He joined the team, give him some games to adapt to his new team.
he will not play SH time

llamateizer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:32 AM
  #11
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,554
vCash: 500
Up until about March of 2011, Tomas Kaberle's contract was viewed as one of the best bargains and cost efficient contracts in the NHL. That's cause he was a
45 to 55pts Dman making 4.25M.

It wasn't until he was traded to Boston and stopped producing points at his usual pace, that his 4.25M contract, was now viewed as a bad one.

We've seen countless dmen come to MTL to play on the PP only to see their point totals skyrocket in Montreal.

IF (and I realize it's a fairly big IF) Kaberle can help run the Habs PP to its normal potential, he'll easily produce at his regular pace...which will then again mean, his contract will once more become a bargain.

Like I always say...cap space and cap value is always relative to performance.

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:37 AM
  #12
hogtownhabsfan*
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,727
vCash: 500
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...

hogtownhabsfan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:39 AM
  #13
StellerEller
HFBoards Sponsor
 
StellerEller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oshawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,228
vCash: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
its so true. eventually people will have hindsight to see that we have our plan B to Markov, and if Markov can come back and be healthy, we could have one of the most dangerous PPs in the NHL.

StellerEller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:40 AM
  #14
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
Because it's Pierre Gauthier who made the trade...

Had another GM with a higher approval rating made a similar deal, this deal would be viewed MUCH differently.

But again, all of this depends on whether or not Tomas Kaberle is able to produce points like he has his whole career and not like he didn't in Boston/Carolina

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:41 AM
  #15
JohnLennon
Registered User
 
JohnLennon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,031
vCash: 500
I'm glad the guy is playing well and hope he keeps it up. I didn't have much of an opinion on the trade when it happened because I had no clue how he would perform with the Habs. Three points in his first two games isn't two shabby, not to mention 7 points in his last 4.

He is looking great on the powerplay, and even made some nice defensive plays last game. Looking forward to seeing how he will progress with the Habs.

JohnLennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:44 AM
  #16
coolasprICE
Registered User
 
coolasprICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,458
vCash: 500
Watching Kaberle between whistles with the organ music playing in the background last night made me feel like I was watching a game back at the old forum

He's got that 70's / 80's vibe that we see rarely!

I think he looks better in a Habs jersey than Leafs.

But man, is he SOFT defensively.

coolasprICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:47 AM
  #17
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,554
vCash: 500
Let's be real here...

Tomas Kaberle's contract became an albatross all because of a sub-par stretch of 53 regular season games between the Boston Bruins last year and Carolina Hurricanes this year (+ 25 playoff games with the B's, but i'll leave those out for now).

In those 53 games, Kaberle recorded 18pts and was a -6 and that completely overshadowed a period of about 5-7 years where he was one of the more productive offensive dmen in the NHL.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think there are no red flags with this deal...there are, but I think many people jumped the gun by calling this deal a terrible one because of Kaberle's 'albatross contract'.

It'll be very interesting to see how this unfolds over the next few months

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:47 AM
  #18
PKtrollban
PK for Norris
 
PKtrollban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Poutine island
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,325
vCash: 500
I'm pretty pleased by Kaberle. But not only because he's played two solid games for us.

The Habs are icing 5 youngsters sometimes. You need experience to surround them. Some of our vets are also very young too, Subban, Pac, DD on top of my head. That makes a very mentally fragile team.

It's very important for young defensemen to have someone with experience showing you how to position at the blueline in the offensive zone, how to find passing lanes and seting up shooters, how to find a shooting lane. Kaberles is incredibly good moving his feet on the blueline, he's very hard to cover and isn't predictable, something youngsters need to learn to be good offensive Dmen. In a few years, we'll see how Subban / Diaz / Emelin / Weber will improve in that department, I bet it will be obvious. Those three have a lot of offensive potential, they just weren't taking the right decisions and were way too predictable.

Icing 5 rookies (teams rebuilding usually have 5 rookies, more or less) and making the playoffs would really be a feat, in my book. If they make it, we can thank the vets and coaching staff. Not easy learning the ropes at the highest level in Montreal, with the media scrutiny, the fans expectations, etc.

PKtrollban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:48 AM
  #19
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
No way it's a massive steal, afterall, Carolina got Cap Space in addition to Spacek.

Well, no matter if Carolina ever actually "spends".

Cap Space is HUGE player in Carolina and look how much they are winnas

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:54 AM
  #20
m00ks
Registered User
 
m00ks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,888
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
No effing doubt.

I've wanted this guy for years and this was probably the only feasible scenario in which we could have acquired him, given his previous status and the intricacies of inter-division trading. It was the perfect storm and I couldn't be more happy PG jumped on it. The fact that he got him for free was masterful.

I'm too confident to even entertain the thought of Kaberle busting here. I would be shocked if he did.

Now part 2 is making space for the rest of our guys. Make it happen.

m00ks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:58 AM
  #21
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,181
vCash: 500
I've been a huge Kaberle fan for years. Can't believe we got him and didn't have to empty the farm for him. Just amazing to see the difference he makes out there on the PP and in our transition game.

Awesome steal so far by the Habs.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:58 AM
  #22
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,443
vCash: 500
I predict that most criticisms of Kaberle's play will emanate from certain posters on this board. Kaberle is the surrogate for their displeasure with JM and PG and they're looking for openings. I expect them to give him minimal credit for anything positive. That means a lot of "Yes, but ..." posts. Despite the Cup, Bruins fans were disappointed with the return for a prospect, a first, and a second, whereas our own negativists are out for blood. The more Kaberle adds to his scoring totals and helps the Habs win, the more frustrated they'll get because it'll help cement JM's and PG's positions. Of course, if Kaberle plays poorly, the base of critics will grow, but it will be separate from feelings about the management.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 11:58 AM
  #23
Lucius
Registered User
 
Lucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Halifax, NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Kaberle does NOT have a huge contract...he's getting paid fairly for what he brings and some would argue that offensively speaking, he might even been underpaid.

.....

He's getting paid like an offensive dman capable of putting up 40-50pts and running an efficient PP. He's 29th in the NHL for average cap hit for a defensman and is 46th among NHL dmen in terms of average salary being paid for this year.

.....

Tomas Kaberle isn't paid like a #1 dman, cause he's not...
Simple math: There are 30 NHL teams. Each team has TWO top two defenders. Thus, there are 60 top pair defenders in the league.

So a guy who is 29th in salary is by definition getting paid like a top pair defenceman.

Lucius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 12:06 PM
  #24
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Simple math: There are 30 NHL teams. Each team has TWO top two defenders. Thus, there are 60 top pair defenders in the league.

So a guy who is 29th in salary is by definition getting paid like a top pair defenceman.
That's a ridiculous way of looking at it, not every teams top 2 dmen, are in fact, top 2 dmen lol...but whatever helps you hate this move, more power to you

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2011, 12:06 PM
  #25
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,214
vCash: 500
anyway you cut it, 4.25M$ is expensive for a PP specialist... unless Kaberle can remember how to be an effective dman in his own zone as well, hard to feel good about paying a premium for a one-trick pony.

i can't remember which ex-player/commentator was talking about it, but it's a relatively regular occurrence to see a player no longer be willing to "pay the price"... once that happens, it's pure fantasy to think said player will ever return to his previous form.

contrary to popular belief, not all pro athletes are, or remain, incredibly driven/passionate about getting better. Complacency happens far more often than non-athletes imagine, and in a sport as physically demanding/punishing & financially rewarding as NHL hockey, it's no surprise that you often see players drop off significantly despite being immensely talented.

Kaberle's drop, from a borderline top-10 overall dman in the league just 2-3 years ago, to a guy still young enough to be in his prime settling for a far from elite UFA contract (29th in the league as others point out), speaks volumes.

with no major injury to explain the decline, the "pay-the-price" argument holds a lot of weight imo.

if that is the case, expect things to just get worse from year to year. you can't "fake" wanting it, and you can't hang on as effectively as players think they can once they stop striving to be better.


ironically, Kaberle @ that kind of cap hit makes much more sense for a non-cap spending team like the Canes, and they were all to thrilled to unload him.

other thing people don't seem to consider is the Muller aspect...

here's a coach who knew Kaberle about as well as any coach in the league (except Ron wilson). As Mtl's assistant the past few years, and with how much we played the leafs, then prepping for the Bruins in the playoffs, Muller (who was very active in game preparations under Martin) would have scouted Kaberle extensively.

He arrives in Carolina, plays Kaberle a few games, and then the Canes send him to Muller's former team for another player (Spacek) he would know incredibly well.

Now, if you don't think Rutherford picked Muller's brain extensively on Kaberle (and Spacek) before trading him, then I don't bother commenting... You'd have to think Rutherford was a complete idiot for him NOT to have consulted at length with Muller prior to pulling off that trade.


If Muller thought Kaberle, whom he knows incredibly well, was an important asset for them to get better (and let's not forget that Muller favors a more offensively dynamic approach to playing, something Kaberle ostensibly would be better suited for), don't you think he'd have pushed Rutherford to keep him at least a bit longer, and that Rutherford would have been favorable to listening to his new hire (since it's in his interest that he succeed)?

doesn't take much common sense to figure out that Muller supported, if not encouraged moving Kaberle, or that he played a role in targeting Spacek (whom I bet he figured could be just as effective as Kaberle in the short term).

Anyhow, point is that habs took a huge risk in acquiring Kaberle, and as much as people are excited by his early PP contributions, a 4.25M$ cap hit for a defenseman that the coach doesn't feel comfortable playing late in the game is NOT a good asset to have traded for... lots of PP specialists available every year at a fraction of the price.


are people really more content with short-term gains at the cost of long-term pain?

I hope I'm wrong... I hope Julien, Muller, Rutherford & Chiarelli were all wrong...
I hope Gauthier's a better talent evaluator than those 6 (though the 4 cup rings to Gauthier's 0 doesn't inspire confidence).

I hope that come this time next year all the people happy/excited about this deal right now can rub it in my face b/c of how well Kaberle is still playing for us and how much better the Habs are b/c we have him.

Hope is an important thing to have, especially when the reality in front of your nose is none to bright.


Last edited by Miller Time: 12-14-2011 at 12:13 PM.
Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.