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The Official Tomas Kaberle Thread

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:11 PM
  #26
Andy
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
anyway you cut it, 4.25M$ is expensive for a PP specialist... unless Kaberle can remember how to be an effective dman in his own zone as well, hard to feel good about paying a premium for a one-trick pony.

could have kept MAB for much much less.

ironically, Kaberle @ that kind of cap hit makes much more sense for a non-cap spending team like the Canes, and they were all to thrilled to unload him.

other thing people don't seem to consider is the Muller aspect...

here's a coach who knew Kaberle about as well as any coach in the league (except Ron wilson). As Mtl's assistant the past few years, and with how much we played the leafs, then prepping for the Bruins in the playoffs, Muller (who was very active in game preparations under Martin) would have scouted Kaberle extensively.

He arrives in Carolina, plays Kaberle a few games, and then the Canes send him to Muller's former team for another player (Spacek) he would know incredibly well.

Now, if you don't think Rutherford picked Muller's brain extensively on Kaberle (and Spacek) before trading him, then I don't bother commenting... You'd have to think Rutherford was a complete idiot for him NOT to have consulted at length with Muller prior to pulling off that trade.


If Muller thought Kaberle, whom he knows incredibly well, was an important asset for them to get better (and let's not forget that Muller favors a more offensively dynamic approach to playing, something Kaberle ostensibly would be better suited for), don't you think he'd have pushed Rutherford to keep him at least a bit longer, and that Rutherford would have been favorable to listening to his new hire (since it's in his interest that he succeed)?

doesn't take much common sense to figure out that Muller supported, if not encouraged moving Kaberle, or that he played a role in targeting Spacek (whom I bet he figured could be just as effective as Kaberle in the short term).

Anyhow, point is that habs took a huge risk in acquiring Kaberle, and as much as people are excited by his early PP contributions, a 4.25M$ cap hit for a defenseman that the coach doesn't feel comfortable playing late in the game is NOT a good asset to have traded for... lots of PP specialists available every year at a fraction of the price.


are people really more content with short-term gains at the cost of long-term pain?

I hope I'm wrong... I hope Julien, Muller, Rutherford & Chiarelli were all wrong...
I hope Gauthier's a better talent evaluator than those 6 (though the 4 cup rings to Gauthier's 0 doesn't inspire confidence).

I hope that come this time next year all the people happy/excited about this deal right now can rub it in my face b/c of how well Kaberle is still playing for us and how much better the Habs are b/c we have him.

Hope is an important thing to have, especially when the reality in front of your nose is none to bright.
Wow that is quite the deductive logic there Sherlock, it must be true, Muller ****ed over this team clearly. Lmao. At what lengths will you go to argue that everyone in the league has better minds than this management? I mean look at this elaborate story you just created based on nothing more than pure speculation.

Maybe you could have took the simple root and say that the influencing factor in the deal was the fact that Randy Ladouceur is familiar with Kaberle in his toronto days having worked together.

The contract is a risk and sucks imo, but they know what they are getting in Kaberle and already said what they expect from him...to get the PP working. As long as it does they will be happy. If gauthier can't make the space at the end of the year to get people signed, then it will be a bad move, for now as long as Kaberle helps, I won't complain about things that haven't happened yet(if they will happen at all.)


Last edited by Andy: 12-14-2011 at 12:17 PM.
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Old
12-14-2011, 12:12 PM
  #27
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anyway you cut it, 4.25M$ is expensive for a PP specialist... unless Kaberle can remember how to be an effective dman in his own zone as well, hard to feel good about paying a premium for a one-trick pony.
PP specialist might be pushing it a little...Kaberle firing on all cylinders, can help in much more than just the PP.

There's nothing wrong with Kaberle's salary as long as he's putting up the points he's known for and capable of.

I seriously doubt you thought 4.25M was expensive for Kaberle at this point last year...like i said in another post, the perception that 4.25M is too expensive for Kaberle, comes from a sub-par performance of 53 regular season games split between Boston and Carolina.

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12-14-2011, 12:12 PM
  #28
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No way it's a massive steal, afterall, Carolina got Cap Space in addition to Spacek.

Well, no matter if Carolina ever actually "spends".

Cap Space is HUGE player in Carolina and look how much they are winnas
Cap Space will replace LaRose...NAY, COLE!!!.... on Staal's wing and score 'em 40. You watch.

Pfff...

Man, Carolineans just like getting ****ed by their team, don't they? This voluntary poverty **** would never fly here. And they DEFEND it.

But on topic.... hey, different players have different roles and if Kaberle wants to play hockey without touching any other player ever, hey, as long as he creates more points than he costs, fine by me. Nobody *****ed when Pavel Bure was the ***** defensively.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:14 PM
  #29
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Gauthier sucks, Martin sucks, Molson is cheap blah blah blah...(summary of the 1st two threads, now you are up to date with the convo)
Ya, a cheap man that not only spends to the cap, but actually well over it considering the LTIR, buy outs and ex-coaches. Let's not forget that he also gave the green light to bring in an extra 12M with Kaberle instead of 3.8M.
Seriously, what a cheap crapper.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:15 PM
  #30
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Ya, a cheap man that not only spends to the cap, but actually well over it considering the LTIR, buy outs and ex-coaches. Let's not forget that he also gave the green light to bring in an extra 12M with Kaberle instead of 3.8M.
Seriously, what a cheap crapper.
Yah bro, but he doesn't want to send Gomez in the minors...proof he's cheap bro!

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12-14-2011, 12:16 PM
  #31
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lol Miller Time.

You are the most eloquent hater on this board which is why you are still not on my ignore list but your theories and scenario are beginning to tread dangerously close to dementia.

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12-14-2011, 12:19 PM
  #32
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So far, so good.

The flavour of the year on our PP.

Hopefully, the Habs can develop some of their own, starting with Subban and Beaulieu.

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12-14-2011, 12:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
PP specialist might be pushing it a little...Kaberle firing on all cylinders, can help in much more than just the PP.

There's nothing wrong with Kaberle's salary as long as he's putting up the points he's known for and capable of.

I seriously doubt you thought 4.25M was expensive for Kaberle at this point last year...like i said in another post, the perception that 4.25M is too expensive for Kaberle, comes from a sub-par performance of 53 regular season games split between Boston and Carolina.
There is nothing wrong with Kaby's contract, just like there's nothing wrong with Cole's contract.
But what would Mtl fans do if they didn't criticize management at every possible chance?..They'd be lost in space.

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12-14-2011, 12:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's a ridiculous way of looking at it, not every teams top 2 dmen, are in fact, top 2 dmen lol...but whatever helps you hate this move, more power to you
nothing ridiculous about that at all...

30 teams, 60 "top-pairing" players, and how many teams have 3 or even 4 players of "top-pairing" caliber...

of course, that includes all the ELC's & RFA's in the mix, but part of building a strong contender in a cap world, is having the right balance of contracts (UFA/RFA/ELC).

with how many high-priced forward contracts we have, adding Kaberle (who was only available b/c he so thoroughly under performed based on the expectations of the team that signed him just a few months ago), is a risky move.

He is definitely overpaid if all he's going to be is a PP specialist whom the coach doesn't trust enough to play late in games, or if he's going to be used less than 19-20min/game.

just b/c there are a few other players out there paid as much or more than him, & used less than that, doesn't improve his value at all...

heck, by that logic, any team paying a C 6-7M$ a year, who gets 40+ points from them, should be happy thanks to Mr.Gomez.


Kaberle will only be worth his contract for us if-
A- he gets back to a clear top-pairing dman level (~20+min/night of quality play in all phases of the game)
B- the team unloads some of it's other bad contracts
C- the habs win a cup in the next two years with him playing a solid role


otherwise, he's just a younger Spacek... overpaid even if a better option than the cheaper players below him on the depth chart.

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12-14-2011, 12:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
So far, so good.

The flavour of the year on our PP.

Hopefully, the Habs can develop some of their own, starting with Subban and Beaulieu.
I loved that pass by Subban on the Cole goal. Sweet feed. I want more of that and less big wind-ups.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:22 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Simple math: There are 30 NHL teams. Each team has TWO top two defenders. Thus, there are 60 top pair defenders in the league.

So a guy who is 29th in salary is by definition getting paid like a top pair defenceman.
Now simple thing : Name me 60 top pair dmen.

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12-14-2011, 12:25 PM
  #37
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Let's face it guys, we're just all cheerleaders who are content with mediocrity.

/discussion.

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12-14-2011, 12:42 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's a ridiculous way of looking at it, not every teams top 2 dmen, are in fact, top 2 dmen lol...but whatever helps you hate this move, more power to you
hahaha EXACTLY, just because "every team has 2 top Dmen" doesnt automatically place them within the top 60 of the league. What a ridiculous way to look at it.

One team's bottom 2 Dmen could be ranked close to another team's top 2

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12-14-2011, 12:45 PM
  #39
Miller Time
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Wow that is quite the deductive logic there Sherlock, it must be true, Muller ****ed over this team clearly. Lmao. At what lengths will you go to argue that everyone in the league has better minds than this management? I mean look at this elaborate story you just created based on nothing more than pure speculation.
you do realize that all of this IS speculation, right?

just b/c the team/gm says one thing publicly, doesn't make it true or factual... there pro sports landscape is littered with outright lies/misdirection, to base an opinion on what a GM says publicly is perhaps even more outlandish than to speculate based on personal experience imo.

there is a pretty big gap between what people on the outside looking in think about how pro sports operate, and how they actually do...


I don't know what kind of business you are in, but is it really hard for you to see that if company A hires someone who knows company B like the back of his hand, the manager at Company A will use input from his new employee to his full advantage?

To speculate that Muller played no role in the Kaberle-Spacek trade, given how well he knows both players, is a much MUCH bigger stretch.


Why would PG pull the trigger? much like the Pearns firing, PG has shown himself not unlikely to make a move when the pressure starts to mount.

You do realize that assuming/speculating that PG's moves and decisions are all well thought out and meticulously planned, ignores both his track record and that he is a human being, like all of us.



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Maybe you could have took the simple root and say that the influencing factor in the deal was the fact that Randy Ladouceur is familiar with Kaberle in his toronto days having worked together.
right, I'm sure that played into it as well, though if PG was relying on Ladouceur's input, from back in 2008, than he's even more out to lunch than I fear he may be.

shoot, if Kaberle were anywhere near his 2008 level of play, he would have signed for much more than 4.25M$.

also, you do realize that Paul Maurice was the laffs coach back then... almost scary how funny/sad a situation we possibly have:

- Maurice, who remembers fondly the Kaberle of his laffs days, encourages Rutherford to sign him
- Kaberle arrives in Carolina, a shell of his 2008 self, immediately giving both PM & Rutherford buyer's remorse.
- Rutherford cans Maurice (live by the gun die by the gun), and then unloads Kaberle to a team with another ex-laffs coach with fond memories of what Kaberle once was

now, that's all a bit "out there" even for me as far as speculation goes... but to your point that the dots connect Ladouceur to Kaberle, it fits quite nicely, doesn't it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The contract is a risk and sucks imo, but they know what they are getting in Kaberle and already said what they expect from him...to get the PP working. As long as it does they will be happy. If gauthier can't make the space at the end of the year to get people signed, then it will be a bad move, for now as long as Kaberle helps, I won't complain about things that haven't happened yet(if they will happen at all.)

that's really all I'm saying... I go a step further by saying that since the contract sucks AND we are taking on the greater risk, it was foolish to make that trade without getting anything else in return.

I agree with the rest of what you say, completely.

but again, from my perspective, the measurement of a management team is how well they manage their assets.

in this case, yet again, the team did a very poor job. Giving up an expiring contract of a "playing below his cap hit" player, for a more expensive/longer term player "playing below his cap hit", without getting anything in return, is just plain bad management in a cap era.

no cap? no problem. I'd focus solely on how Kaberle helps our PP, and that's all that would matter.

Cap? big problem. and Gauthier, much like his predecessor Gainey, is proving equally lacking in the "schrewdness" department, and that remains my only issue with how they are running the team.

other GM's/organizations do a better job, some worse... i aspire for the habs to be the best, period.






Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
PP specialist might be pushing it a little...Kaberle firing on all cylinders, can help in much more than just the PP.

There's nothing wrong with Kaberle's salary as long as he's putting up the points he's known for and capable of.

I seriously doubt you thought 4.25M was expensive for Kaberle at this point last year...like i said in another post, the perception that 4.25M is too expensive for Kaberle, comes from a sub-par performance of 53 regular season games split between Boston and Carolina.
Kaberle hasn't been "firing on all cylinders" in a long time... that's the problem, and that's why he signed for 4.25M$ instead of 5-6M$, and why boston was all to happy to let him go despite the massive assets they gave up to get him, and why Carolina was HAPPY to get spacek for him...


i hope he "bounces back", but imo it doesn't look good...

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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
lol Miller Time.

You are the most eloquent hater on this board which is why you are still not on my ignore list but your theories and scenario are beginning to tread dangerously close to dementia.
thank you, i think?

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:46 PM
  #40
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Let's face it guys, we're just all cheerleaders who are content with mediocrity.

/discussion.
Yeah!!!

does that mean the "mindless pessimistic management bashers who hate anything montreal and love anything not montreal because they aren't REAL fans" have finally won?


Party time!!!

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12-14-2011, 12:47 PM
  #41
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He is definitely overpaid if all he's going to be is a PP specialist
The fact you think this is all he will bring tells me whole lot on how little you actually perceive of the game.

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12-14-2011, 12:55 PM
  #42
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Let's face it guys, we're just all cheerleaders who are content with mediocrity.

/discussion.
If you really cared about winning, you'd want the team to clean house in the middle of the season and possibly tank.

Because nothing says winning like losing.

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12-14-2011, 12:56 PM
  #43
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nothing ridiculous about that at all...

30 teams, 60 "top-pairing" players, and how many teams have 3 or even 4 players of "top-pairing" caliber...
That is a very flawed observation. I can't believe you actually think that..
By that logic, is Frans Nielsen a legit top 2 center in the NHL? Is Antoine Vermette?
Is Wiz a #1 Dman? Is Jordan Staal a #3 center??

Just because they are either top Dmen, 2nd or 3rd centers, on their respective teams, does not mean that's what they are based league wide. Put Staal on our team and he's perhaps #1 center, put Nielsen and he might be 3rd or 4th.

You know this, so stop arguing for the sake of it.

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12-14-2011, 12:57 PM
  #44
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If you really cared about winning, you'd want the team to clean house in the middle of the season and possibly tank.

Because nothing says winning like losing.
LMFAO

To quote Anchorman "60% of the time, it works everytime."

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12-14-2011, 12:57 PM
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If you really cared about winning, you'd want the team to clean house in the middle of the season and possibly tank.

Because nothing says winning like losing purposely.
Fixed.

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12-14-2011, 12:58 PM
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Wtv delete this post, I'm tired of arguing against people who use speculation and deduction(flawed or not) to back up their argument.

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12-14-2011, 01:09 PM
  #47
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Simple math: There are 30 NHL teams. Each team has TWO top two defenders. Thus, there are 60 top pair defenders in the league.

So a guy who is 29th in salary is by definition getting paid like a top pair defenceman.
Ok
same logic could be used for points
Kaberle is 49th in pts
Subban is 48th
Weber 54st
Gorges 58st

we have 4 top 2 D?

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12-14-2011, 01:17 PM
  #48
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Ok
same logic could be used for points
Kaberle is 49th in pts
Subban is 48th
Weber 54st
Gorges 58st

we have 4 top 2 D?
If scoring was all defencemen do, sure.

In a salary cap league, I think it's important to pay people according to their slot. An overpaid 5/6 guy limits the money available for a real 1/2 guy.

It's a finite pool. Say Shea Weber becomes a UFA and we lose out in the bidding by 1m to say.... Carolina... then I'd rather not have Kaberle so that he can be fit in.

If it wasn't for the cap, I couldn't care less. He's a solid contributor, but having a well balanced team by slot is important in this world.

For now, it doesn't matter. We have Subban in the top 2 earning bottom 2 money. I believe he's a free agent this summer though, so that's about to change.

The above is all perfect world and that's not fair, but the fact is that the successful teams will have more balanced rosters that pay people closer to their contributions, which will ensure they can keep their free agents and sign others. Teams that overpay for people down the depth chart will run into trouble. If Chicago hadn't overpaid Campbell and Huet, for example, they might have had a dynasty instead of a single run. It was great until their cheap core came up for renewal. Kaberle (and others) have contracts that are directly going to impact the team's ability to pay and keep people like Price and Subban.

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12-14-2011, 01:20 PM
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Kaberle hasn't been "firing on all cylinders" in a long time... that's the problem, and that's why he signed for 4.25M$ instead of 5-6M$, and why boston was all to happy to let him go despite the massive assets they gave up to get him, and why Carolina was HAPPY to get spacek for him...


i hope he "bounces back", but imo it doesn't look good...


Miller Time...come on

Tomas Kaberle prior to his trade last February 18th (about 10 months ago) he had
38pts in 58 games.

How is that a long time ago?

Again, Kaberle had a rough stretch of 53 games between his time with the Bruins and his time with the Canes. In those 53 games he recorded 18pts.

You can choose to believe that those 53 games are a sign of a player deteriorating...OR, you can choose to believe that those 53 games were a sign of a player have difficulty adjusting to a new team(s) and new system(s) and also dealing some off-ice issues.

I happen to think that Kaberle has alot left in the tank and is more likely to become the Kaberle we've always known, then the one we saw for a limited amount of time towards the end of last year and early this year and judging from his past 2-3 weeks of play, it looks like it's trending that way

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12-14-2011, 01:41 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
If scoring was all defencemen do, sure.

In a salary cap league, I think it's important to pay people according to their slot. An overpaid 5/6 guy limits the money available for a real 1/2 guy.

It's a finite pool. Say Shea Weber becomes a UFA and we lose out in the bidding by 1m to say.... Carolina... then I'd rather not have Kaberle so that he can be fit in.

If it wasn't for the cap, I couldn't care less. He's a solid contributor, but having a well balanced team by slot is important in this world.

For now, it doesn't matter. We have Subban in the top 2 earning bottom 2 money. I believe he's a free agent this summer though, so that's about to change.

The above is all perfect world and that's not fair, but the fact is that the successful teams will have more balanced rosters that pay people closer to their contributions, which will ensure they can keep their free agents and sign others. Teams that overpay for people down the depth chart will run into trouble. If Chicago hadn't overpaid Campbell and Huet, for example, they might have had a dynasty instead of a single run. It was great until their cheap core came up for renewal. Kaberle (and others) have contracts that are directly going to impact the team's ability to pay and keep people like Price and Subban.
Individual teams, have different philosophies about which player gets what amount of money. The Habs were willing to pay Tomas Plekanec 5M per year for 6 years, but maybe if Plekanec played for the Ottawa Senators, they wouldn't be willing to pay him that and would of let him walk, and maybe the Columbus Blue Jackets would of ben willing to pay Plekanec 6M per year.

Cap space/Cap value is relative to performance and to the teams priorities...the New York Rangers don't mind overpaying for guys cause they can just bury players in the minors.

The Chicago Blackhawks won a Stanley Cup with two of the worst recent contracts ever signed during the offseason (Campbelle & Huet). The trouble they had was because their GM was irresponsible when submitting some RFA contracts, but even then, those contracts didn't stop or hasnt' stopped the Blackhawks from being a competitive team.

Again, people exagerrate the impact of cap space...Yes, it's important, but looking at it exclusively without considering anything else is an incredibly linear way of looking at a very complex and multi-faceted subject. Lack of cap space or having perceived 'bad contracts' doesn't impede teams from winning or improving.

Tomas Kaberle's contract will never impede the Habs from re-signing Carey Price & PK Subban who are two cornerstones of this franchise and it's ridiculous IMO, to assume it would.

The GM of the Habs gets paid to deal with the cap on the team...let him work it out, that's his job.

The term "overpaid" has become a buzzword among fans/media in hockey, there are tons of overpaid players in the NHL, from Scott Gomez to Rick Nash to Eric Staal, there's plenty of them. Every team needs to deal with it. Bad contracts become bad contracts, when players go bad.


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