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Is Carle the best Defenseman on this team?

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:32 AM
  #51
SeanCWombBroom
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I don't know why anyone granted the premise that the stats show Carle being best on the team. They don't.

And people are not slighting Carle. Until recently, he was playing poorly. Recently, he's been playing much better. Ear to the ground, he's played better, very well-- that is the running opinion from the majority of people with their heads on straight.

Kimmo and historically, Pronger, have much better stats in important areas (quality of competition, corsi, etc). Just relative quality of competition it goes Pronger, Kimmo, MAB (shocking really), and then Carle, Coburn, Gust, and Mez (who is having a bad start but should improve).

That being said. He's played well (recently!)

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:35 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
Pronger's name needs to be enclosed in a second pair of parenthesis because you are referring to the Pronger from 2/3 years ago. Current Pronger has dropped behind Timonen even when healthy enough to be dressed.
The same Pronger who was actually healthy for a part of this season and played at nearly a PPG pace?

Not saying Pronger's still a PPG player, but he's still a 50-point defensemen with all-world shut-down capabilities.

I love Timonen, but I have a hard time just openly saying Timonen is now better than Pronger. Pronger is still top dog on our defense when healthy. Let's see how he returns from this concussion though.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:50 AM
  #53
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As a group for the most part the defense has done very well in Prongers absense. We have seen some mistakes that have led to goals, but that happens. Overall I am pretty happy the way everyone has played for the most part. The playing time that guys like MAB and Marshall are getting now will be invaluable when they are needed later in the season when(hopefully) Pronger gets back. We may not need to pillage our draft picks for overpriced bottom pairing depth defenseman.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:04 PM
  #54
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He's been pretty solid recently. He's actually using his body, rather than just attempting to play defense by running around.

He's been turning the puck over less, has jumped into the play smartly/quickly. As a result, there haven't been too many odd man rushes coming out of the offensive zone.

If he continues to improve, he might start to resemble the player his fans on this board promote. I'd say Coburn and Timonen in particular have stepped up the past two weeks, and the team has played better defense as a whole. It'd be great to see Carle actually learn top-4 defense from within the role this season, rather than be the weak link on a top-4 pairing.

Pronger>Timonen>Coburn>Mesz>Carle>Bourdon>Lilja>Ma rshall>Walker

I'd say 3-4-5 have been kinda close, but both Mesz and Coburn are just better than Carle on most nights.

I didn't catch many of the Gus games so I can't really say for sure where I'd place him.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:03 PM
  #55
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Having Pronger out might actually help him. He isn't going to be seen as the weak link to be exploited on his pairing because of it. It'll give him a chance to work on his game against weaker competition instead of having the best players on every team gunning for him.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:11 PM
  #56
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Kimmo is the best by a wide margin, then Coburn and Mez. Carle remains 4th.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:11 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Having Pronger out might actually help him. He isn't going to be seen as the weak link to be exploited on his pairing because of it. It'll give him a chance to work on his game against weaker competition instead of having the best players on every team gunning for him.
What is smart though is Lavy not overplaying Timonen. I think Denverbone would even agree Timonen is the teams best defender. Even if DB stat stares (loves looking at how many points he has) Timonen is leading the defenders in points, and is 3rd in the league in defender assists (17 in the whole league).

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12-14-2011, 02:15 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
What is smart though is Lavy not overplaying Timonen. I think Denverbone would even agree Timonen is the teams best defender. Even if DB stat stares (loves looking at how many points he has) Timonen is leading the defenders in points, and is 3rd in the league in defender assists (17 in the whole league).
Yeah, it seems like Carle has been seeing a lot of time against the middle-of-the-road players while Timonen has been saved for the PK and the other teams top players. I'm fine with that, and Carle has indeed been good in that role.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:23 PM
  #59
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The best thing about Carle and Coburn is how easily they can munch up minutes and not get worn out. Good thing about being below 30

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:27 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, it seems like Carle has been seeing a lot of time against the middle-of-the-road players while Timonen has been saved for the PK and the other teams top players. I'm fine with that, and Carle has indeed been good in that role.
What is interesting in that categlory, according to the QUALCOMP (quality of opponents), guess who is facing the strongest lines? According to behind the net, MAB is. The thing is though, he has only played a handful of games, so that is one of the big reasons why he is up there. Same with Matt Walker.

It goes:

Bourdon
Walker
Timonen
Coburn
Pronger
Carle
Marshall
Meszaros
Gustafsson
Lilja


QUALTEAM (qualitiy of teammates) goes:

Coburn
Meszaros
Carle
Lilja
Marshall
Gustafsson
Pronger
Timonen
Bourdon
Walker

In other cat such as corsi QOC, Timonen is second behind Pronger and Bourdon is 3rd.

In otherwords, Timonen is not put with the teams strongest teammates but still faces the other teams strongest opponents.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:36 PM
  #61
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Walker also has something like 8 GAON/60, though. He was likely out against the best competition because the other team got the matchup they wanted. I wonder how much those stats get skewed in the short term by road games.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:40 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Walker also has something like 8 GAON/60, though. He was likely out against the best competition because the other team got the matchup they wanted. I wonder how much those stats get skewed in the short term by road games.
Severly. Thats why its hard to look at players who have only played a few games (such as Walker, Gustafsson, Marshall and Bourdon). Like for instance, on defense guess who leads the team on the amount of goals we score when on the ice? Gustafsson. The team averages 6 goals for when he is on the ice. But if we remember he played like 22 minutes against CLB when we destroyed them so they pushed the stats in favor of him. Same can be said about goals against.

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Old
12-14-2011, 03:11 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You are welcome to live in ignorance, you are in good company here.

I was talking about 'average time on ice per game,' so no, most of our Dmen won't pass Pronger. But nice try. What are you, in grade 2?

I'll side with Laviolette, who is trying to limit the wear and tear on Timonen (who I agree is our best Dman), by calling #25 more and more all the time.

If you can't see how many great plays and passes Carle makes in a game, you need to take a remedial hockey watching course. I don't have the patience any more to teach the ignorant children of Philadelphia what hockey is about.
So your agreeing with me, and yet still debating and throwing insults. Did I say Carle sucks, did I say your logic is faulty at best? No, I said He still has to many moments where he fails on an outlet pass, and there have been plenty of plays where not only me, but apparently 90 percent of the Flyers fans on HFBoards shake their head. Apparently your the type of guy if someone disagrees with you there just dumb and stupid. Carle has good performances, but it still doesn't take away his inconsistent and sometimes faulty play. Take a step back and re-advise your approach, your not any smarter then anyone else here; nor are you the hockey god of all seeing knowledge.

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Old
12-14-2011, 03:24 PM
  #64
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Carle is good. Kimmo is better, but Carle is still good.

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12-14-2011, 03:33 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Carle is good. Kimmo is better, but Carle is still good.
Pretty much this.

We can just end the thread here, right?

Oh, wait, I forgot where I was...

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12-14-2011, 03:36 PM
  #66
sa cyred
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Pretty much this.

We can just end the thread here, right?

Oh, wait, I forgot where I was...
Well we could end it here... but we will just get another "I love Carle" thread from DB two weeks from now.

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12-14-2011, 05:09 PM
  #67
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if Carle skated onto the ice without tripping over the edge we could expect a "Is Carle the best skater on this team" thread..

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Old
12-14-2011, 05:41 PM
  #68
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Good Ol' Stone Hands <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Kimmo Therepy

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Old
12-14-2011, 05:49 PM
  #69
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I'm far from a Carle supporter, but it's hard not to notice he's playing very well. Also what the f with MAB?! Pleasantly surprised with this d as its playing now!

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:01 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
What is interesting in that categlory, according to the QUALCOMP (quality of opponents), guess who is facing the strongest lines? According to behind the net, MAB is. The thing is though, he has only played a handful of games, so that is one of the big reasons why he is up there. Same with Matt Walker.

It goes:

Bourdon
Walker
Timonen
Coburn
Pronger
Carle
Marshall
Meszaros
Gustafsson
Lilja


QUALTEAM (qualitiy of teammates) goes:

Coburn
Meszaros
Carle
Lilja
Marshall
Gustafsson
Pronger
Timonen
Bourdon
Walker

In other cat such as corsi QOC, Timonen is second behind Pronger and Bourdon is 3rd.

In otherwords, Timonen is not put with the teams strongest teammates but still faces the other teams strongest opponents.
I believe that might actually be other teams testing the rookie. We have had very few home games since Bourdon has started. Chances are, everytime the rookie hits the ice the other coach fires out his top unit. IMO. With that said, Bourdon has done very well (unlike previous years 5-6 getting destroyed; Lasse/Parent anyone).

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Old
12-15-2011, 09:37 PM
  #71
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Kimmo is better than Carle, but comparing Cap hits, Carle is a better value. That will change when Carle is re signed.

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12-15-2011, 09:43 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Kimmo is better than Carle, but comparing Cap hits, Carle is a better value. That will change when Carle is re signed.
Carle had another really good game tonight, I might even go so far as to say that he was worthy of that 1st star selection... but you really need to chill with this.

Carle will get a nice raise on his next contract though. NHL GM's tend to do stupid things when they see a puck-moving defenseman becoming an ufa.

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Old
12-15-2011, 09:57 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Carle's defense has been flawless the last 10 or so games. He's scoring goals and contributing assists. He has really stepped it up.
Oh to the haters that infiltrate any Carle thread, please refrain from the usual sophomoric smack and contribute something useful. Thanks in advance.
I would go with Kimmo. But it is now a blow out by any means. Matt has been playing very well. The haters cannot use the #20 excuse anymore. If anything Matt has stepped up his game this year since Chris has been out. Right now this team has four very solid NHL defense men. Plus three kids and two vets rounding out the nine. The organization has some thinking to do between now and February. I would be surprised if they did not make a move. The playoffs are a different animal and solid vets will be needed. Start looking at teams who are going to be out of it then make a move.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:04 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I would go with Kimmo. But it is now a blow out by any means. Matt has been playing very well. The haters cannot use the #20 excuse anymore. If anything Matt has stepped up his game this year since Chris has been out. Right now this team has four very solid NHL defense men. Plus three kids and two vets rounding out the nine. The organization has some thinking to do between now and February. I would be surprised if they did not make a move. The playoffs are a different animal and solid vets will be needed. Start looking at teams who are going to be out of it then make a move.
Actually, a big reason he looks better is that he is facing weaker competition then he would have if he was playing with Pronger. It's easy to step up when your matchups have gotten easier.

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