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The Official Tomas Kaberle Thread

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:56 PM
  #51
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i still can't believe he is a hab

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12-14-2011, 02:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
If scoring was all defencemen do, sure.

In a salary cap league, I think it's important to pay people according to their slot. An overpaid 5/6 guy limits the money available for a real 1/2 guy.

It's a finite pool. Say Shea Weber becomes a UFA and we lose out in the bidding by 1m to say.... Carolina... then I'd rather not have Kaberle so that he can be fit in.

If it wasn't for the cap, I couldn't care less. He's a solid contributor, but having a well balanced team by slot is important in this world.

For now, it doesn't matter. We have Subban in the top 2 earning bottom 2 money. I believe he's a free agent this summer though, so that's about to change.

The above is all perfect world and that's not fair, but the fact is that the successful teams will have more balanced rosters that pay people closer to their contributions, which will ensure they can keep their free agents and sign others. Teams that overpay for people down the depth chart will run into trouble. If Chicago hadn't overpaid Campbell and Huet, for example, they might have had a dynasty instead of a single run. It was great until their cheap core came up for renewal. Kaberle (and others) have contracts that are directly going to impact the team's ability to pay and keep people like Price and Subban.
I agree that Kaberle will mortgage some salary cap. But the actual situation needed to be handled. Kaberle is saving the habs season right now. Its not highly paid for this.
as for Weber, yes I agree, but he earns 7.5 millions RFA. Imagine him UFA... Yikes.


If we are in the run for Weber... well Kaberle would've been traded a la samsonov.
samsonov for 2 other players (then bought out).

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12-14-2011, 02:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.
Spot on, the reason he doesn't play is because he shouldn't be playing in these situations. A few points won't hide this mess forever. I'm gonna laugh when the threads pop up about how no one could of known his play had dropped off tremendously. Should be interesting. He is not even a top 4 dman anymore, top 4 dman don't get benched when the game is on the line. We'll need a 3 goal lead to feel comfortable with him playing 3rd period minutes.

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12-14-2011, 02:41 PM
  #54
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This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
TBH I can see both sides of it. Player vs Player, The Habs stole this one for sure.

If it turns out that Kaberle can still put up 45ish points a year and be a decent 4-5 guy in the line up. Again, MTL wins and the cap hit is fair.

My problem is the salary cap. They must have known that Campoli wouild be back soon, why rush to make this deal. Why not let Campoli have 10 games to see how it goes before you lock yourself in for 3 years for Kaberle??

They have some RFAs and at least 1 UFA that must be resigned at almost any cost. Price, Subban, Gorges and maybe AK.

4.25 is fair for Kaberle IMO, but NOT if it might cost you one of the guys I mentioned above.

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12-14-2011, 02:48 PM
  #55
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TBH I can see both sides of it. Player vs Player, The Habs stole this one for sure.

If it turns out that Kaberle can still put up 45ish points a year and be a decent 4-5 guy in the line up. Again, MTL wins and the cap hit is fair.

My problem is the salary cap. They must have known that Campoli wouild be back soon, why rush to make this deal. Why not let Campoli have 10 games to see how it goes before you lock yourself in for 3 years for Kaberle??

They have some RFAs and at least 1 UFA that must be resigned at almost any cost. Price, Subban, Gorges and maybe AK.

4.25 is fair for Kaberle IMO, but NOT if it might cost you one of the guys I mentioned above
.
I don't know why people worry about Price & Subban...they're both RFA's and the cornerstones of the Montreal Canadiens, they're not going anywhere

Gorges & AK are pending UFA's...if they can work out a deal, great, if not, they'll be replaced. Happens every year with every team, so be it...

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12-14-2011, 02:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
TBH I can see both sides of it. Player vs Player, The Habs stole this one for sure.

If it turns out that Kaberle can still put up 45ish points a year and be a decent 4-5 guy in the line up. Again, MTL wins and the cap hit is fair.

My problem is the salary cap. They must have known that Campoli wouild be back soon, why rush to make this deal. Why not let Campoli have 10 games to see how it goes before you lock yourself in for 3 years for Kaberle?? They have some RFAs and at least 1 UFA that must be resigned at almost any cost. Price, Subban, Gorges and maybe AK.

4.25 is fair for Kaberle IMO, but NOT if it might cost you one of the guys I mentioned above.
My guess is a deal was to be made and he took the chance. What if he waited the 10 games to make the deal, Kaberle continues his hot streak lately putting up points and Rutherford decides to not let him go?

I still can't believe we got Kaberle for Spacek, this was a no brainer. Cap space doesn't win games and can be managed later. Anyone who thinks management will lose Gorges and AK for Gomez at this point are crazy, won't happen.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:52 PM
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I don't know why people worry about Price & Subban...they're both RFA's and the cornerstones of the Montreal Canadiens, they're not going anywhere

Gorges & AK are pending UFA's...if they can work out a deal, great, if not, they'll be replaced. Happens every year with every team, so be it...
Who are we going to replace Gorges or AK with? Suter is the only free agent better than Gorges on D. There's also no forwards we can actually make a run at better than Kostitsyn. Do you really want to throw a huge contract at Hemsky or Semin? Zero chance Parise comes here.

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12-14-2011, 02:53 PM
  #58
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Individual teams, have different philosophies about which player gets what amount of money. The Habs were willing to pay Tomas Plekanec 5M per year for 6 years, but maybe if Plekanec played for the Ottawa Senators, they wouldn't be willing to pay him that and would of let him walk, and maybe the Columbus Blue Jackets would of ben willing to pay Plekanec 6M per year.

Cap space/Cap value is relative to performance and to the teams priorities...the New York Rangers don't mind overpaying for guys cause they can just bury players in the minors.

The Chicago Blackhawks won a Stanley Cup with two of the worst recent contracts ever signed during the offseason (Campbelle & Huet). The trouble they had was because their GM was irresponsible when submitting some RFA contracts, but even then, those contracts didn't stop or hasnt' stopped the Blackhawks from being a competitive team.

Again, people exagerrate the impact of cap space...Yes, it's important, but looking at it exclusively without considering anything else is an incredibly linear way of looking at a very complex and multi-faceted subject. Lack of cap space or having perceived 'bad contracts' doesn't impede teams from winning or improving.

Tomas Kaberle's contract will never impede the Habs from re-signing Carey Price & PK Subban who are two cornerstones of this franchise and it's ridiculous IMO, to assume it would.

The GM of the Habs gets paid to deal with the cap on the team...let him work it out, that's his job.

The term "overpaid" has become a buzzword among fans/media in hockey, there are tons of overpaid players in the NHL, from Scott Gomez to Rick Nash to Eric Staal, there's plenty of them. Every team needs to deal with it. Bad contracts become bad contracts, when players go bad.
I'm not suggesting Kaberle alone makes those contracts impossible.

But Kaberle now joins several questionable long term deals. Gomez is the most obvious, but Gionta and Cammalleri are starting to stink a little too. If Markov's knee doesn't hold up, that could also be a cap disaster. He's the latest in a string of questionable decisions regarding cap management from this team.

Fact is, the Habs have a similar annual salary to the Pittsburgh Penguins and lots of other teams. I realize luck is involved to getting a guy like Crosby or Malkin, but it's hard to argue that these teams are not doing a better job of using that cap space given the quality of people they're fitting in for the same price.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:54 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Who are we going to replace Gorges or AK with? Suter is the only free agent better than Gorges on D. There's also no forwards we can actually make a run at better than Kostitsyn. Do you really want to throw a huge contract at Hemsky or Semin? Zero chance Parise comes here.
The lesson learned from this: We cannot predict the future. If by July 1st no cap space has been made, trash him all you want. Until then, there is no point in pulling your hair out for the next 7 months trying to come up with what if.

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12-14-2011, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Who are we going to replace Gorges or AK with? Suter is the only free agent better than Gorges on D. There's also no forwards we can actually make a run at better than Kostitsyn. Do you really want to throw a huge contract at Hemsky or Semin? Zero chance Parise comes here.
lol get a grip man...I love Josh Gorges, but he's not exactly irreplaceable and neither is Andrei Kostitsyn.

You can't be afraid of change man

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12-14-2011, 02:57 PM
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The lesson learned from this: We cannot predict the future. If my July 1st no cap space has been made, trash him all you want. Until then, there is no point in pulling your hair out for the next 7 months trying to come up with what if.


Lots can happen until then.

Let's win some hockey games and play with some passion for crisssake !

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12-14-2011, 02:58 PM
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You can't be afraid of change man
True. I mean, it's not like we have a history of locking down 20 million on overpaid underachievers or midgets

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12-14-2011, 02:59 PM
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lol get a grip man...I love Josh Gorges, but he's not exactly irreplaceable and neither is Andrei Kostitsyn.

You can't be afraid of change man
I'd prefer to keep them rather than replace, love both players.

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12-14-2011, 03:01 PM
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True. I mean, it's not like we have a history of locking down 20 million on overpaid underachievers or midgets
Cammy, Gionta and Gomez could be dealt before next September...

Anyway, that's what I hope for.

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12-14-2011, 03:01 PM
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I'm not suggesting Kaberle alone makes those contracts impossible.

But Kaberle now joins several questionable long term deals. Gomez is the most obvious, but Gionta and Cammalleri are starting to stink a little too. If Markov's knee doesn't hold up, that could also be a cap disaster. He's the latest in a string of questionable decisions regarding cap management from this team.

Fact is, the Habs have a similar annual salary to the Pittsburgh Penguins and lots of other teams. I realize luck is involved to getting a guy like Crosby or Malkin, but it's hard to argue that these teams are not doing a better job of using that cap space given the quality of people they're fitting in for the same price.
I agree, some of the contracts on the Habs will make it more difficult for PG to maneuever, but he's the GM... that's what he gets paid for. That's his job.

But regardless, every year, many teams that are up against the cap figure out a way around their contracts. It can be done, you just have to be willing to get creative, furthermore, there's a new CBA to be negotiated soon and there's talk there could be provisions to help GM's save themselves from mistakes.

I'm not sure why you're saying Habs ahve a simialr annual salary to the Penguins, so what? You have a salary cap, you're allowed to spend up to its limit...having spent more wisely doesn't guarantee you success.

Did the Boston Bruins win the Cup last year because they had cap space? Or because they had a great team? Cap space is a very vague word that people love to toss around but it can mean alot of different things...

having capspace alone doesn't make teams better, performing players does...if the Habs could somehow snap their fingers and have Scott Gomez's contract disapear tomorrow, does that mean they're a better team?

No, because they've been playing without Gomez for the better part of the season and are in 9th place right now...and freeing up his salary doesn't necessarily guarantee that who ever fills that slot, would help the team even more.

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12-14-2011, 03:02 PM
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Miller Time...come on

Tomas Kaberle prior to his trade last February 18th (about 10 months ago) he had
38pts in 58 games.

How is that a long time ago?

Again, Kaberle had a rough stretch of 53 games between his time with the Bruins and his time with the Canes. In those 53 games he recorded 18pts.

You can choose to believe that those 53 games are a sign of a player deteriorating...OR, you can choose to believe that those 53 games were a sign of a player have difficulty adjusting to a new team(s) and new system(s) and also dealing some off-ice issues.

I happen to think that Kaberle has alot left in the tank and is more likely to become the Kaberle we've always known, then the one we saw for a limited amount of time towards the end of last year and early this year and judging from his past 2-3 weeks of play, it looks like it's trending that way
as you know, there is a lot more to a player than pts...

is it coincidence that the Laffs actually played better in the second half of the year, without having acquired any player to replace Kaberle & his production?

could it be that, as i'm suggesting, Kaberle is becoming more MAB and less Markov by the week?

Again, I hope that you are right, and that Kaberle's decline over the past 2-3 seasons (while his pt production only recently tailed off, I think his overall impact has been declining for much longer) is an anomaly that he will work his way out of with us.

that he came into the season badly out of shape, seems to point more towards a player mentally "checked out"... the "cup hangover" excuse, for a veteran professional with as much experience as he has, is bogus.

a kid who gets caught up in the excitment and doesn't know how to properly prepare himself is one thing, a 15-year vet with over 100 games of playoff experience is another.

some athletes win and just want to win more, others win and are satisfied with that... kaberle's behavior points to the latter, and supports the notion that he's less willing to pay the price he once was... when that happens, it is rare for things to reverse course.

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Old
12-14-2011, 03:04 PM
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I'd prefer to keep them rather than replace, love both players.
I agree.

Like some have said, if Kostity was from Saskatchewan, and all else remains equal, sentiment would be very different.

Maybe he should just change his name to Larry McPowers

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12-14-2011, 03:04 PM
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I agree, some of the contracts on the Habs will make it more difficult for PG to maneuever, but he's the GM... that's what he gets paid for. That's his job.

But regardless, every year, many teams that are up against the cap figure out a way around their contracts. It can be done, you just have to be willing to get creative, furthermore, there's a new CBA to be negotiated soon and there's talk there could be provisions to help GM's save themselves from mistakes.

I'm not sure why you're saying Habs ahve a simialr annual salary to the Penguins, so what? You have a salary cap, you're allowed to spend up to its limit...having spent more wisely doesn't guarantee you success.

Did the Boston Bruins win the Cup last year because they had cap space? Or because they had a great team? Cap space is a very vague word that people love to toss around but it can mean alot of different things...

having capspace alone doesn't make teams better, performing players does...if the Habs could somehow snap their fingers and have Scott Gomez's contract disapear tomorrow, does that mean they're a better team?

No, because they've been playing without Gomez for the better part of the season and are in 9th place right now...and freeing up his salary doesn't necessarily guarantee that who ever fills that slot, would help the team even more.
You could give Tom Pyatt Gomez' salary and he would help the team more.

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12-14-2011, 03:04 PM
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True. I mean, it's not like we have a history of locking down 20 million on overpaid underachievers or midgets
Again, I don't care about who is 'overpaid'...that doesn't mean anything to me (even much less them being midgets). I do however care about players underachiving, and for the most part, that's exactly what this teams 'star' players have done.

But if Mike Cammalleri is scoring at the pace he's supposed too, no one here will care that he's makign 6M a year. Someone only becomes overpaid, when they're underachieving.

So to me, being 'overpaid' is all relative

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12-14-2011, 03:04 PM
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Cammy, Gionta and Gomez could be dealt before next September...

Anyway, that's what I hope for.
I still think Cammy will turn things around and prove very useful. Call it a hunch.

And Gionta I have no doubt he will be clutch as usual when we need him.

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12-14-2011, 03:05 PM
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is it coincidence that the Laffs actually played better in the second half of the year, without having acquired any player to replace Kaberle & his production?

.
But the Leafs hot streak began with Kaberle in the line up. And Btw, Burke did replace Kaberle, he went out and picked up Liles this year, so it's pretty obvious that he thought that the moving of Kaberle left a hole on the offensive side of their defense.

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12-14-2011, 03:06 PM
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I'd prefer to keep them rather than replace, love both players.
So would I...but if they can't come to an agreement to fit them under the team cap, then so be it. Someone else will step in and will have to do the job. It's the nature of the business man

I'm not attached to any player not named Carey Price and to a certain degree, PK Subban. Anyone else IMO, is virtually interchageable.

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12-14-2011, 03:08 PM
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Spot on, the reason he doesn't play is because he shouldn't be playing in these situations. A few points won't hide this mess forever. I'm gonna laugh when the threads pop up about how no one could of known his play had dropped off tremendously. Should be interesting. He is not even a top 4 dman anymore, top 4 dman don't get benched when the game is on the line. We'll need a 3 goal lead to feel comfortable with him playing 3rd period minutes.
You can say the same of many, many Dmen in the NHL.
Despite his benching, he still played more than Campoli and Diaz.

That's why a guy like Hammer was so serviceable to us. You could pair him with a more offensive and weaker defensive player. We did it last year with Wiz.
Having him, Campoli, Diaz and Weber in the line up is just not the best recipe.

Also, if you look at the Tavares goal, again, much like Emelin-Kaberle, you have two guys that seem confused as they're both playing on the left.
Campoli is covering the far side, Kaberle is on his side, Cammy is battling on the boards, Plek is covering the faceoff circle/slot. Cammy loses the board battle, he stops covering his play. Parenteau leaves with the puck, around the red line behind the net. Kaberle is supposed to get him, but Campoli decides to make a leap towards him. Parenteau continues behind the net, Campoli tries to come back around from the left side (Kaberle's side). Plekanec forgets to cover his man as well.
We were 4 Habs versus 3 Islanders, there's no reason for us to not prevent a goal there and zoning in on Kaberle is simply not fair.
Campoli is really the most at fault here. There's also Plekanec that had poor coverage.

You can even blame the coach for getting caught. PK and Gorges were matched to the Tavares line all game.

But really, this is simply a miscommunication/chemistry mistake. Can't expect Campoli and Kaberle to just be mistake free right from the start.
PK made a crucial turnover, goal.
Diaz made a crucial turnover, goal.
Campoli-Kaberle mis-read the play, goal.
Happens to everybody. Even Gorges, who's been a rock, has made some mistakes that turned to goals.

To say we'll need 3 goals to feel comfortable with Kaberle is really over criticizing him.
Sure, he's no Gorges, but he's no MAB either.

I'm happy with Kaberle.

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12-14-2011, 03:08 PM
  #74
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as you know, there is a lot more to a player than pts...

is it coincidence that the Laffs actually played better in the second half of the year, without having acquired any player to replace Kaberle & his production?

could it be that, as i'm suggesting, Kaberle is becoming more MAB and less Markov by the week?

Again, I hope that you are right, and that Kaberle's decline over the past 2-3 seasons (while his pt production only recently tailed off, I think his overall impact has been declining for much longer) is an anomaly that he will work his way out of with us.

that he came into the season badly out of shape, seems to point more towards a player mentally "checked out"... the "cup hangover" excuse, for a veteran professional with as much experience as he has, is bogus.

a kid who gets caught up in the excitment and doesn't know how to properly prepare himself is one thing, a 15-year vet with over 100 games of playoff experience is another.

some athletes win and just want to win more, others win and are satisfied with that... kaberle's behavior points to the latter, and supports the notion that he's less willing to pay the price he once was... when that happens, it is rare for things to reverse course.
Those are all valid concerns and I share them all...i'm just willing to give him a shot to see how he fits in with THIS team. Again, anyone on this board would of erected a statue of Pierre Gauthier had he made this trade at this point last year. I have trouble believing that a player could lose his game so quickly.

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12-14-2011, 03:10 PM
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