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The Official Tomas Kaberle Thread

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Old
12-14-2011, 05:00 PM
  #101
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post

I wasn't speculating, I said the way in which you have speculated is completely dishonest. It's just you once again looking for any excuse to blame management.
you're starting to sound a bit like a broken record... if all i'm after is an excuse to blame management, here's an idea for you... IGNORE ME!

otherwise, don't waste my time with this kind of "stop picking on them" crud. Make your own points, debate my points, stick to the topic.

leave the generalizations out of it.

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12-14-2011, 05:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
you're starting to sound a bit like a broken record... if all i'm after is an excuse to blame management, here's an idea for you... IGNORE ME!

otherwise, don't waste my time with this kind of "stop picking on them" crud. Make your own points, debate my points, stick to the topic.

leave the generalizations out of it.
I'm arguing with you because I don't think you're presenting good arguments. You are cherry picking stats and speculative explanations.

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12-14-2011, 05:03 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Dishonest?

From January 8th-February 8th, the leafs were 6-6-1.

Kaberle Traded February 8th

From February 8th to the end of the season, leafs are 15-8-6


you're clutching at straws Andy, doesn't suit you.


and besides, if you want to start picking apart numbers, why not just simply look at the most clear ones...

Leafs finished the season 15-8-6 after trading Kaberle...

they were 22-26-5 with him in the lineup.


Reimer or no Reimer, a team doesn't go from woefully below .500 to almost 50% above .500 when they LOSE their top dman, without replacing him, unless said Dman really wasn't an integral part of their success.

if we were talking about a handful of games after Kaberle left that they got hot, and then cooled off, sure, dismiss it.

but the team lost a guy who had been playing 20+min/game, and did not miss a beat. Wether you want to argue that they started playing better before he left (again, 6-6-1 in the 30 days before he got traded) so be it, that doesn't change anything about the FACT that they played extremmely well, and won a heck of a lot more often then they had in the 4 months prior to him leaving.
Kaberle was traded the 18th bro, not the 8th, my stats hold. I'm not picking at numbers, I'm showing you that by picking at numbers I can skew the numbers to favor my side of the argument, which is what you have done.

Also, by that logic, if Kaberle was so bad, why did the Bruins explode and finish the season 15-6-4 with him in the lineup if he was so bad and so contraining to a team? Again, you are just cherry picking explanations.

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12-14-2011, 05:10 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The assists are masking it, but this is just a time bomb waiting to go off.

He didn't play late against NJ at all, and after the 3-3 goal against the Isles he sat again.

Martin clearly doesn't trust him even a little bit. Eventually fans will notice that the guy on a huge contract for three seasons doesn't play in the second half of the third period and wonder why.
The thing is we play a tight organized defensive system, and Kaberle is only here for a week, so no kidding he is benched when Martin employs his stupid "let them come at us" approach. I think in a month or so this won't keep happening.

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12-14-2011, 05:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Kaberle was traded the 18th bro, not the 8th, my stats hold. I'm not picking at numbers, I'm showing you that by picking at numbers I can skew the numbers to favor my side of the argument, which is what you have done.

Also, by that logic, if Kaberle was so bad, why did the Bruins explode and finish the season 15-6-4 with him in the lineup if he was so bad and so contraining to a team? Again, you are just cherry picking explanations.
look at that... instead of getting all emotional about my "dishonesty", you could have simply corrected my very honest mistake... I was looking up stats from February 8th instead of 18th... got the trade date mixed up in my head


so the laffs were 12-7-4 after moving Kaberle... not quite as impressive as 15-8-6, but still a much better winning % than with him in the lineup.

they were 7-6-1 in the month prior to him getting traded, so again, as much as they were playing better in the new year, their winning % (both overall season, and month-to-month) still shot up after he was removed from the lineup.

And again, you miss the point completely by trying to see things in black & white ("if Kabarle was sooo bad...").

Kaberle on the leafs = top-pairing dman on a team well below .500

Kaberle on the bruins = 5-6 dman on an eventual cup champion


Kaberle is a solid hockey player, he's just not good enough (at this stage in his career, why the decline? i've offered my opinion based on what seems most likely given the little we do know) to be considered a solid top-pairing dman, at least not on a contender.

he's much closer to a MAB, one-dimensional special teams asset, then he is a well-rounded every situation dman.


That makes him overpaid, imo, @ 4.25M$, and it's why it was a bad decisions, imo, to trade for him without getting more in return.

4.25M$ for a one-dimensional player is too much, our management didn't think so either b/c they think he is/will be more than that (mistake imo, and according to other NHL GM's like Chiarelli & Rutherford), or b/c they think adding him is enough of a salve for this team (also a mistake, imo).


you can make it about "hating on kaberle", or "hating on management" if that makes you feel better, but detaching from the emotions might make it easier for you

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12-14-2011, 05:42 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post


Kaberle is a solid hockey player, he's just not good enough (at this stage in his career, why the decline? i've offered my opinion based on what seems most likely given the little we do know) to be considered a solid top-pairing dman, at least not on a contender.

he's much closer to a MAB, one-dimensional special teams asset, then he is a well-rounded every situation dman.


That makes him overpaid, imo, @ 4.25M$, and it's why it was a bad decisions, imo, to trade for him without getting more in return.

4.25M$ for a one-dimensional player is too much, our management didn't think so either b/c they think he is/will be more than that (mistake imo, and according to other NHL GM's like Chiarelli & Rutherford), or b/c they think adding him is enough of a salve for this team (also a mistake, imo).


you can make it about "hating on kaberle", or "hating on management" if that makes you feel better, but detaching from the emotions might make it easier for you
I agree with a lot of points here, but here is a few of my own.

1. Kaberle wasn't brought in to be a number 1-2-3. Martin said in his interview abotu Kaberle, that he was brought in for a PP role, offense and puck movement.

2. I disagree that he is close to MAB, that is just pure exaggeration.

3. I don't really care about his cap hit right now, it means nothing to me in the short-term. If this summer the trade causes the team not to make other signings then I'll whine.

4. What's interesting is people were willing to pay more for the Wiz who brings similar offensive output and is as "bad" as Kaberle defensively. For the record, I always said I would have been willing to bring Wiz back at 4.5 million, not a penny more though.

So yah, I think Kaberle's shortcomings are greatly overstated. The concern about the cap hit in the future is something that concerns me, but I'm not going to stress about it considering it's still december.

5. If Kaberle puts up 45 points for the next couple of years and the habs are able to free cap space to sign everyone, then I'll have literally nothing to complain about.

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Old
12-14-2011, 05:45 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
This trade was such a massive steal by Gauthier that it boggles my mind that so many are hating so much...
Yep.

Some people think more about the 'cap' then actual play on the ice.

Welcome TK

You've made the team better.

I am confident of beating the Flyers on Thursday.

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12-14-2011, 05:46 PM
  #108
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Always loved Kabs and I hope things work out for him but I predict the poor guy will be the habs fans whipping boy by the end of the year. I can't understand why teams still think he's a good pp defenceman, he doesn't shoot. He's a great outlet passer

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12-14-2011, 05:52 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeygeek View Post
Always loved Kabs and I hope things work out for him but I predict the poor guy will be the habs fans whipping boy by the end of the year. I can't understand why teams still think he's a good pp defenceman, he doesn't shoot. He's a great outlet passer
I always remember this one goal where he made a ridiculous shot/pass to the left of the net that was wonderfully tipped in by one of the other leafs. Would love to see him do that with Cole!

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12-14-2011, 05:57 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I always remember this one goal where he made a ridiculous shot/pass to the left of the net that was wonderfully tipped in by one of the other leafs. Would love to see him do that with Cole!
Lots of time, this will happen...

Kaberle has already made the PP better, just after two games, the Habs actually have controlled the puck with Kaberle back there...a nice start for the vet dman!

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12-14-2011, 06:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I always remember this one goal where he made a ridiculous shot/pass to the left of the net that was wonderfully tipped in by one of the other leafs. Would love to see him do that with Cole!
He can make some wicked stretch passes too, across 2 zones, through 9 sticks and 18 skates, put it right on the tape so a guy doesn't even break stride. That's the good side of Kabs. There's an ugly side too and some people can't look past that

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12-14-2011, 06:34 PM
  #112
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I don't care what was the record of the respective teams with or without Kaberle. Only thing I care is that right now, you can see a clear difference with him in the lineup, pp hasn't look this good in ages.

Kaberle is a good fit in this team and he fills in an obvious void. I don't care about the rest.

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12-14-2011, 06:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
I don't care what was the record of the respective teams with or without Kaberle. Only thing I care is that right now, you can see a clear difference with him in the lineup, pp hasn't look this good in ages.

Kaberle is a good fit in this team and he fills in an obvious void. I don't care about the rest.
I feel the same way. The PP has helped us to win two games now. I am not too sure if we could win the last 2 games without TB.

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12-14-2011, 06:47 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I agree with a lot of points here, but here is a few of my own.

1. Kaberle wasn't brought in to be a number 1-2-3. Martin said in his interview abotu Kaberle, that he was brought in for a PP role, offense and puck movement.
right, but this is a problem in my eyes... with our current cap situation, does it make sense to pay Kaberle 4.25M$ (or anyone for that matter) to be a # 4-5 & used in a limited role?

if we were a team with tons of cap space moving forward, then it's a non-issue, but as it stands today we have 21M$ to spend on 11-13 players...

even at a conservative 3.5/4.5/5.5 for Gorges/Subban/Price, that's 13.5M$ gone (and i think it will be considerably more to re-sign those 3), leaving us with 7.5M$ to spend on 9-10 players (which includes Kost or his replacement, Gill or his replacement, Moen or his replacement... those 3 alone eat up 7.5M$).

So even if the cap goes up by 2-3M$, as of today, we are in a very bad spot for next season just to retain the talent we have, let alone make any kind of upgrades to the roster.

Spacek's ~4M$ was an important "asset" in terms of space opening up... using it on another 4-5 dman, even if a slight upgrade, was not a good decision on it's own, even worse considering we got nothing else out of the deal.


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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
2. I disagree that he is close to MAB, that is just pure exaggeration.
yeah, you are right, Kaberle is a bit better, but is he 3.25M$ better? At one point in his career, without a doubt... At this stage in their respective career... I'd argue the difference isn't nearly that big ... heck right now MAB is perhaps the best value 4-5 PP specialist dman in the league.

more importantly, if Kaberle's role is to be a 4-5 dman who helps the pp and can move the puck, both roles MAB fills adequately enough, which player is a better value/asset in that role?

The one making 4.25M$ or the one making 1M$?

and a quick look at last year's playoffs, where both players met up in the conference finals...

MAB's even stength TOI in the playoffs last year = 11:10 min/game
Kaberle's even strength TOI in the playoffs last year = 12:07 min/game

there's much more to it, of course, but i guess my point remains that we are paying an awfully expensive premium for a player who will play a role others fill for much less.

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
3. I don't really care about his cap hit right now, it means nothing to me in the short-term. If this summer the trade causes the team not to make other signings then I'll whine.
I may very well hold you to that whining

I'm all for optimism, and I obviously hope the team has a plan for how to fix the cap mess they continue to put themselves in... but that's the problem with making so many short-sighted moves and being unwilling to suffer short term pains for long term gains... you end up "stuck" way too often.

With the information in front of us, we are in a very tough situation come July 1st.

btw now and then, perhaps Gomez gets burried/moved, perhaps Cammy gets shipped out, perhaps they have some crazy plan to move subban or price... who knows, lot's of maybe's.

until something gives, all were left with is a team that has very little money to spend on a whole lot of roster spots to fill.

adding a 4.25M$ 4-5 dman made a tough situation that much tougher.

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
4. What's interesting is people were willing to pay more for the Wiz who brings similar offensive output and is as "bad" as Kaberle defensively. For the record, I always said I would have been willing to bring Wiz back at 4.5 million, not a penny more though.
i felt the same way about Wiz (i think i was even pegging his value at closer to 4M$...), and was not interested in seeing the habs re-sign him for the UFA market premium he was sure to get...

but I think the market more or less reinforced that Wiz brings more to the table than Kaberle...

why else would Kaberle, a cup winner with a far bigger/more consistent track record who is not exactly over the hill at 33, get 1.25M$ & 3 years less as a UFA than Wiz?

the toughness factor that Wiz adds, on top of the pp/offensive skills, made him a more valuable commodity.

for us, given the make-up of our defensive depth, i think a case could be made that Wiz's value was about 1M$ more than Kaberle... or put another way, had I known we'd end up with Kaberle @ 4.25M$ for 2 more years, I think I would have been more inclined to support a 5-5.5M$ contract for Wiz (just perhaps not @ 6 years).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
So yah, I think Kaberle's shortcomings are greatly overstated. The concern about the cap hit in the future is something that concerns me, but I'm not going to stress about it considering it's still december.
nor should you "stress" about it... i certainly not.

but that doesn't preclude me from feeling that the trade, Kaberle for Spacek, was not a good decision for our team given all of the factors to be considered.

Getting Kaberle is fine, even an unquestionably good move as far as short term needs are concerned, but I want to see the team moving towards long-term sustained success, and in that regard, taking on overpriced term without getting any incentives other than moving a slightly less effective dman on an expiring contract, I disagree with the decision.

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5. If Kaberle puts up 45 points for the next couple of years and the habs are able to free cap space to sign everyone, then I'll have literally nothing to complain about.
yup...
exactly what i've been saying from the get go...

I'd even scale it back..

IF he delivers to a level worthy of his salary

OR (as opposed to AND)

IF the team is able to jettison other bad contracts (Gomez/Cammy) thus allowing the key pieces to build around to get re-signed or added

then I'll be happy.

I'll still think we could/should have done better in the trade as far as getting more assets coming our way given the bigger risk we were taking, but at least it won't turn into a major blunder.


that said,

IF he turns into another Spacek ( a guy unable to give the team 18-20min of quality play despite being paid in the 4M$ territory)

OR

IF the team is forced to part ways with Kost/Gorges or starts low balling Subban/Price/Eller on their RFA contracts (which would be pretty easy to see if they end up on 1-2 year deals)

then not only will the trade have been bad from a on the spot value pov, but it will also prove to be an awful move from an asset management pov.

I'm hoping we get the positive "If's", not the negative ones!

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12-14-2011, 07:31 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No way it's a massive steal, afterall, Carolina got Cap Space in addition to Spacek.

Well, no matter if Carolina ever actually "spends".

Cap Space is HUGE player in Carolina and look how much they are winnas
I can understand that Cap Space may be a huge player....but, the difference between Spacek and Kaberle as far as a Cap Hit is only 416,667 so I don't think it's a huge factor in this trade. Carolina got a 38 year old defensive dman while we got a 33 year old offensive dman for our power play. I think each team got what it wanted out of the trade so it may not be a steal....but it was a good trade both ways.

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12-14-2011, 07:41 PM
  #116
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You can say the same of many, many Dmen in the NHL.
Despite his benching, he still played more than Campoli and Diaz.

That's why a guy like Hammer was so serviceable to us. You could pair him with a more offensive and weaker defensive player. We did it last year with Wiz.
Having him, Campoli, Diaz and Weber in the line up is just not the best recipe.

Also, if you look at the Tavares goal, again, much like Emelin-Kaberle, you have two guys that seem confused as they're both playing on the left.
Campoli is covering the far side, Kaberle is on his side, Cammy is battling on the boards, Plek is covering the faceoff circle/slot. Cammy loses the board battle, he stops covering his play. Parenteau leaves with the puck, around the red line behind the net. Kaberle is supposed to get him, but Campoli decides to make a leap towards him. Parenteau continues behind the net, Campoli tries to come back around from the left side (Kaberle's side). Plekanec forgets to cover his man as well.
We were 4 Habs versus 3 Islanders, there's no reason for us to not prevent a goal there and zoning in on Kaberle is simply not fair.
Campoli is really the most at fault here. There's also Plekanec that had poor coverage.

You can even blame the coach for getting caught. PK and Gorges were matched to the Tavares line all game.

But really, this is simply a miscommunication/chemistry mistake. Can't expect Campoli and Kaberle to just be mistake free right from the start.
PK made a crucial turnover, goal.
Diaz made a crucial turnover, goal.
Campoli-Kaberle mis-read the play, goal.
Happens to everybody. Even Gorges, who's been a rock, has made some mistakes that turned to goals.

To say we'll need 3 goals to feel comfortable with Kaberle is really over criticizing him.
Sure, he's no Gorges, but he's no MAB either.

I'm happy with Kaberle.
You're usually happy with managements decisions, why am I not surprised? Kaberle is not a top 4 dman, period, he's getting benched because he's weak defensively, not many top 4 dman get benched when you lead the game by 2 goals in the 3rd period. That's what happens to 3rd pairing dman, which is exactly what kabs is at this point, I don't think his pp ability will overcome the inability to play in his own end and I know he can't do it for 2.5 years, he looks like he'll be lucky to make it through the season, nevermind two more.

He is much closer to MAB defensively than he is to Gorges, you won't be happy with him for long.

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12-14-2011, 07:57 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
I don't care what was the record of the respective teams with or without Kaberle. Only thing I care is that right now, you can see a clear difference with him in the lineup, pp hasn't look this good in ages.

Kaberle is a good fit in this team and he fills in an obvious void. I don't care about the rest.
Yup, he's a fun player to watch and he adds excitement to watching the Habs and I believe he makes the Canadiens a better team. Personally, as a fan, that's all I care about too.

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12-14-2011, 08:11 PM
  #118
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Yup, he's a fun player to watch and he adds excitement to watching the Habs and I believe he makes the Canadiens a better team. Personally, as a fan, that's all I care about too.
agreed
the power play is finally fun to watch
then when markov comes back we will have 2 pretty good sets of power play lines

Markov-Subban
Michael Cammalleri-Tomas Plekanec-AK/gionta

Tomas Kaberle-Weber/campoli
Eric Cole-David Desharnais-Max Pacioretty

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12-14-2011, 08:30 PM
  #119
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I was one of the people who really didn't like the trade at first. However thus far Kaberle is 2/2 in my books. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and he's showing why he was such a force in Toronto. I do admit he does look slow out there at times but he more than makes up for it with his passing and vision. He's definitely a Markov lite when he's on his game, let's just hope he doesn't go 2/10

Right now I'm warming up to the deal though, I just don't like the idea of losing Andrei or Gorges. I really hope Goats finds a way to keep them too.

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12-14-2011, 09:01 PM
  #120
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He can make some wicked stretch passes too, across 2 zones, through 9 sticks and 18 skates, put it right on the tape so a guy doesn't even break stride. That's the good side of Kabs. There's an ugly side too and some people can't look past that
The habs success last year was in special teams and goaltending. This year, the PK is 2nd, Price is still strong, but the PP has plummeted down to 28th, and its cost them alot of points in the standings.

What was missing on the PP is exactly what kaberle provides which is poise and vision from the blueline. Its been lacking since the habs let wisniewski go. He wont need to be the shooter here, he just needs to set plays and stabilize the PP.

For a PP that finished 7th last year, and 2nd the year before that, 28th is just unacceptable. If the PP can jump through the rankings, then kaberle is a great fit for the habs and the good outweighs the bad quite easily.

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12-15-2011, 01:46 AM
  #121
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Yup, he's a fun player to watch and he adds excitement to watching the Habs and I believe he makes the Canadiens a better team. Personally, as a fan, that's all I care about too.
shhhh...

don't say that too loud or else Martin might figure that out and find a way to restrict Kaberle's ice time & pp impact...

didn't you get the memo? Coach Martin thinks the habs problem is that they make it "to exciting for the fans"

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12-15-2011, 05:59 AM
  #122
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right, but this is a problem in my eyes... with our current cap situation, does it make sense to pay Kaberle 4.25M$ (or anyone for that matter) to be a # 4-5 & used in a limited role?

if we were a team with tons of cap space moving forward, then it's a non-issue, but as it stands today we have 21M$ to spend on 11-13 players...

even at a conservative 3.5/4.5/5.5 for Gorges/Subban/Price, that's 13.5M$ gone (and i think it will be considerably more to re-sign those 3), leaving us with 7.5M$ to spend on 9-10 players (which includes Kost or his replacement, Gill or his replacement, Moen or his replacement... those 3 alone eat up 7.5M$).

So even if the cap goes up by 2-3M$, as of today, we are in a very bad spot for next season just to retain the talent we have, let alone make any kind of upgrades to the roster.

Spacek's ~4M$ was an important "asset" in terms of space opening up... using it on another 4-5 dman, even if a slight upgrade, was not a good decision on it's own, even worse considering we got nothing else out of the deal.




yeah, you are right, Kaberle is a bit better, but is he 3.25M$ better? At one point in his career, without a doubt... At this stage in their respective career... I'd argue the difference isn't nearly that big ... heck right now MAB is perhaps the best value 4-5 PP specialist dman in the league.

more importantly, if Kaberle's role is to be a 4-5 dman who helps the pp and can move the puck, both roles MAB fills adequately enough, which player is a better value/asset in that role?

The one making 4.25M$ or the one making 1M$?

and a quick look at last year's playoffs, where both players met up in the conference finals...

MAB's even stength TOI in the playoffs last year = 11:10 min/game
Kaberle's even strength TOI in the playoffs last year = 12:07 min/game

there's much more to it, of course, but i guess my point remains that we are paying an awfully expensive premium for a player who will play a role others fill for much less.



I may very well hold you to that whining

I'm all for optimism, and I obviously hope the team has a plan for how to fix the cap mess they continue to put themselves in... but that's the problem with making so many short-sighted moves and being unwilling to suffer short term pains for long term gains... you end up "stuck" way too often.

With the information in front of us, we are in a very tough situation come July 1st.

btw now and then, perhaps Gomez gets burried/moved, perhaps Cammy gets shipped out, perhaps they have some crazy plan to move subban or price... who knows, lot's of maybe's.

until something gives, all were left with is a team that has very little money to spend on a whole lot of roster spots to fill.

adding a 4.25M$ 4-5 dman made a tough situation that much tougher.



i felt the same way about Wiz (i think i was even pegging his value at closer to 4M$...), and was not interested in seeing the habs re-sign him for the UFA market premium he was sure to get...

but I think the market more or less reinforced that Wiz brings more to the table than Kaberle...

why else would Kaberle, a cup winner with a far bigger/more consistent track record who is not exactly over the hill at 33, get 1.25M$ & 3 years less as a UFA than Wiz?

the toughness factor that Wiz adds, on top of the pp/offensive skills, made him a more valuable commodity.

for us, given the make-up of our defensive depth, i think a case could be made that Wiz's value was about 1M$ more than Kaberle... or put another way, had I known we'd end up with Kaberle @ 4.25M$ for 2 more years, I think I would have been more inclined to support a 5-5.5M$ contract for Wiz (just perhaps not @ 6 years).





nor should you "stress" about it... i certainly not.

but that doesn't preclude me from feeling that the trade, Kaberle for Spacek, was not a good decision for our team given all of the factors to be considered.

Getting Kaberle is fine, even an unquestionably good move as far as short term needs are concerned, but I want to see the team moving towards long-term sustained success, and in that regard, taking on overpriced term without getting any incentives other than moving a slightly less effective dman on an expiring contract, I disagree with the decision.



yup...
exactly what i've been saying from the get go...

I'd even scale it back..

IF he delivers to a level worthy of his salary

OR (as opposed to AND)

IF the team is able to jettison other bad contracts (Gomez/Cammy) thus allowing the key pieces to build around to get re-signed or added

then I'll be happy.

I'll still think we could/should have done better in the trade as far as getting more assets coming our way given the bigger risk we were taking, but at least it won't turn into a major blunder.


that said,

IF he turns into another Spacek ( a guy unable to give the team 18-20min of quality play despite being paid in the 4M$ territory)

OR

IF the team is forced to part ways with Kost/Gorges or starts low balling Subban/Price/Eller on their RFA contracts (which would be pretty easy to see if they end up on 1-2 year deals)

then not only will the trade have been bad from a on the spot value pov, but it will also prove to be an awful move from an asset management pov.

I'm hoping we get the positive "If's", not the negative ones!
i'm willing to give pg a benefit of doubt, because he did really good job two years ago, when the cap mess was even bigger than it suppose to be next summer. everyone questioned back then whether plekanec will be re-signed, and pg made it pretty smoothly.

imo, gorges will be re-signed, and kostitsyn is questionable anyway due to his well documented relationship with martin.

carey and subban probably won't be re-signed long term next summer, and that's fine by me. if carey and pk can prove they are franchise players they'll get paid according to it, since all those contracts are going to expire 2,5 years from now.

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12-15-2011, 08:16 AM
  #123
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anyway you cut it, 4.25M$ is expensive for a PP specialist... unless Kaberle can remember how to be an effective dman in his own zone as well, hard to feel good about paying a premium for a one-trick pony.

i can't remember which ex-player/commentator was talking about it, but it's a relatively regular occurrence to see a player no longer be willing to "pay the price"... once that happens, it's pure fantasy to think said player will ever return to his previous form.

contrary to popular belief, not all pro athletes are, or remain, incredibly driven/passionate about getting better. Complacency happens far more often than non-athletes imagine, and in a sport as physically demanding/punishing & financially rewarding as NHL hockey, it's no surprise that you often see players drop off significantly despite being immensely talented.

Kaberle's drop, from a borderline top-10 overall dman in the league just 2-3 years ago, to a guy still young enough to be in his prime settling for a far from elite UFA contract (29th in the league as others point out), speaks volumes.

with no major injury to explain the decline, the "pay-the-price" argument holds a lot of weight imo.

if that is the case, expect things to just get worse from year to year. you can't "fake" wanting it, and you can't hang on as effectively as players think they can once they stop striving to be better.


ironically, Kaberle @ that kind of cap hit makes much more sense for a non-cap spending team like the Canes, and they were all to thrilled to unload him.

other thing people don't seem to consider is the Muller aspect...

here's a coach who knew Kaberle about as well as any coach in the league (except Ron wilson). As Mtl's assistant the past few years, and with how much we played the leafs, then prepping for the Bruins in the playoffs, Muller (who was very active in game preparations under Martin) would have scouted Kaberle extensively.

He arrives in Carolina, plays Kaberle a few games, and then the Canes send him to Muller's former team for another player (Spacek) he would know incredibly well.

Now, if you don't think Rutherford picked Muller's brain extensively on Kaberle (and Spacek) before trading him, then I don't bother commenting... You'd have to think Rutherford was a complete idiot for him NOT to have consulted at length with Muller prior to pulling off that trade.


If Muller thought Kaberle, whom he knows incredibly well, was an important asset for them to get better (and let's not forget that Muller favors a more offensively dynamic approach to playing, something Kaberle ostensibly would be better suited for), don't you think he'd have pushed Rutherford to keep him at least a bit longer, and that Rutherford would have been favorable to listening to his new hire (since it's in his interest that he succeed)?

doesn't take much common sense to figure out that Muller supported, if not encouraged moving Kaberle, or that he played a role in targeting Spacek (whom I bet he figured could be just as effective as Kaberle in the short term).

Anyhow, point is that habs took a huge risk in acquiring Kaberle, and as much as people are excited by his early PP contributions, a 4.25M$ cap hit for a defenseman that the coach doesn't feel comfortable playing late in the game is NOT a good asset to have traded for... lots of PP specialists available every year at a fraction of the price.


are people really more content with short-term gains at the cost of long-term pain?

I hope I'm wrong... I hope Julien, Muller, Rutherford & Chiarelli were all wrong...
I hope Gauthier's a better talent evaluator than those 6 (though the 4 cup rings to Gauthier's 0 doesn't inspire confidence).

I hope that come this time next year all the people happy/excited about this deal right now can rub it in my face b/c of how well Kaberle is still playing for us and how much better the Habs are b/c we have him.

Hope is an important thing to have, especially when the reality in front of your nose is none to bright.
The power play is incredibly important. Are we forgetting how dominant he was against us at times? If Kaberle can return to form he would be an important asset offensively. It seems people forget how good Kabs was. He can play third pairing with PP time and be well worth it. If it is true that he went through a divorce and has kids then one would expect him to be distracted. He needs a nice Quebecois girl to knit him socks. As a therapist Ive seen many people devastated by divorce. Hopefully, he is over the hump and ready to roll. It is the duty of every Habs fan to find Kab a girlfriend.


Last edited by toshiro: 12-15-2011 at 08:21 AM.
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12-15-2011, 09:02 AM
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It is the duty of every Habs fan to find Kab a girlfriend.
I'm on the case. Do you know his preference? Latina, Asian, pure-Laine, eastern European, western Europe, Mediterranean? Carrabean? African? Arab?

It's gonna be easier if I know what will make him happy (not necessarely what will catch his eye best)

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12-15-2011, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I'm on the case. Do you know his preference? Latina, Asian, pure-Laine, eastern European, western Europe, Mediterranean? Carrabean? African? Arab?

It's gonna be easier if I know what will make him happy (not necessarely what will catch his eye best)
Whomever knits warm socks.

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