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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-15-2011, 04:08 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I was done with this thread but you made this post and I have subsequently been called "repugnant" so I will clarify my point about Fleury speaking up now.

About keeping silent now being the best for Fleury.

Fleury had an opportunity to speak out when Kennedy did. However, for whatever reason.....and I am not Fleury so I wont speculate........, he did not. He stayed silent and even co-owned a team that allowed the predator, James, to continue molesting young players.

Fleury speaking out then would have served a purpose. It would have stopped James from abusing young hockey players.
Easy to say sitting at home on your computer never being the victim of abuse.

Far harder to do when you are Theo Fleury, its 1996 and you haven't dealt with the serious psychological issues you have.

Give me a break.

Quote:
Fast forward to now. James is sentenced to prison and the courts allow him to remain free before his prison term begins. Fleury decides to speak out now.

For what purpose did Fleury speak out now? To save kids? The real opportunity to save kids from a predator by speaking out was YEARS ago, not now. Or was it self serving for Fleury to speak out now?
What purpose does it serve? Did you really just ask this?

It highlights a serious failure in the justice system, one that Fleury can bring awareness to and hopefully our politicians can fix going forward.

Fleury speaking out is also a major celebrity and canadian sports icon saying "its okay if this happened to you, there is nothing to be ashamed of, speak out... it will help you get over things... there are people to help you" This is very encouraging and empowering to other silent victims, to have a role model like Fleury to look up to.


Quote:
Fleury blamed the Canadian politicians for enabling James to abuse kids by not sending him to jail now instead of two months later. Ironic that Fleury was enabling James to abuse kids for years by not speaking out.

Hickey is right to point out that Fleury is a hypocrite.


And thus, since Fleury did not speak out then when he could have made a difference in saving kids, he should have kept his mouth shut now since it served no purpose other than to bring publicity to his book.
This is nothing but pure Bull ****.

Fleury's coming forward now, does a hell of a lot for other victims of abuse.

You think that Graham James is the only pedofile in Canada? You think there won't be more cases the justice system needs to deal with?

Quote:
As far as your analogy, it is irrelevant. Here is a better analogy.

Your neighbor Bob was molested as a kid and runs a day care center. Your other neighbor's (Fred--and he is your best friend) daughter was molested by Bob. Fred does not file charges because he sympathizes with Bob's situation. And after being asked by Bob to become a business partner, Fred becomes co-owner of the daycare. Fred then asks you to enroll your daughter in the day care and you do.

Years later the truth comes out about both Bob and Fred and the number of girls that Bob molested.

What do you say when the reporter covering the story has it published in the newspaper? That the reporter should be fired? Or is there an issue with Bob and Fred?

Can you and the others on this thread give me an honest answer?
HOLY ****... YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

Fred is a rational human being, capable of rational thought.

Fleury was ****ed up in the head!

How they are the same? I can't even imagine.

Fleury didn't "sympathize with James' situation," Fleury was emotionally unable to deal with it at the time.

This is one of the worst analogies ever made on this site.
:

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12-15-2011, 04:10 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by yathehabsrule View Post
After a brutal call out of Theo Fleury, two bad attempts to defend himself on radio and an attempt to cover his ass with his last article, Pat Hickey still doesn't get it.

This is one of the best write ups on the issue so far.
I clicked this blog but it was tl;dr

but then 2 people posted how awesome it was

AND IF EVERYONE READS THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF THE BLOG, you have to finish it imo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsEyeonthePrizeBLOG
A lot of my personal and limited success as an amateur hockey writer comes from the Montreal Gazette's Montreal Canadiens hockey blog; Hockey Inside/Out. When I began writing several of my opinions and articles were featured there and I owe them a great debt of gratitude for that. I consider Mike Boone to be a personal friend. Pat Hickey played a large part in that website's creation and success since it began around the time I started university. Mike Boone has featured two stories on me in the Gazette and featured my comments another two times. I felt before writing this piece that it was important to write this preface so all readers understand that I don't criticize the Gazette lightly, nor do I take any pleasure in doing so. I understand that I may be burning some bridges here, that should tell you how important this is.
If you read this and see how much the blogger is shooting himself in the foot and committing career suicide to get his message across, the rest of the blog deserves reading.


I encourage everyone to actually read the blog, it took me like 4 hours to actually be able to read it all but it was worth it. It will open up your eyes immensely.

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12-15-2011, 04:11 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I believe that child molesters and pedophiles should be castrated and forever have to have a sign stating who they are in front of their house.

How about you?
But you think guys like Fleury who are actual victims, shouldn't open their mouths 15 years later, because they were too ashamed, afraid, emotionally traumatized to do so then?

According to you, he's now given up his right to speak out because he wasn't ready to speak out at the same time Sheldon Kennedy did.

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12-15-2011, 04:23 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
How about my analogy with the neighbor. Here, I will refresh your memory.


Your neighbor Bob was molested as a kid and runs a day care center. Your other neighbor's (Fred--and he is your best friend) daughter was molested by Bob. Fred does not file charges because he sympathizes with Bob's situation. And after being asked by Bob to become a business partner, Fred becomes co-owner of the daycare. Fred then asks you to enroll your daughter in the day care and you do.

Years later the truth comes out about both Bob and Fred and the number of girls that Bob molested.

What do you say when the reporter covering the story has it published in the newspaper? That the reporter should be fired? Or is there an issue with Bob and Fred?


I HONESTLY want you to comment on this with you being the neighbor of Bob and Fred.
FRED can think Rationally. Even if he feels sorry for Bob, he hasn't lost the ability to think rationally in the same way that Fleury had.

Its apples to oranges.

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12-15-2011, 04:23 AM
  #280
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No matter if his point has some bearing, to call out someone who was sexually abused and start picking apart when he should have came foward is pretty rotten. Too much speculation on Hickey's part, should have stayed away from this one.

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12-15-2011, 04:32 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I still stand by what I said.

Why?

Not one person posting on this thread would stand in support of Fleury if their son was molested and ***** by James while working as "Coach" of the team that "Victim of Coach James" Theo Fleury co-owned.

Not one.

But I am the ****ing retard for pointing that out.

While you all are crying for Theo Fleury, please shed a tear for the kids that were molested and ***** while Coach James worked for Fleury. Those kids are the real victims in this story.
If James touched my kid... I'd ****ing kill him (James) myself... no question about it.

I would NOT blame the kids who James molested before mine, for not speaking out and coming forward. I would understand that they were scared victims, just like my kid is a scared victim.

Here's the other thing... lets imagine my kid is too scared to tell me or anyone else about James' abuse. Lets imagine while my kid remains silent, another kid is abused. Do I blame my own kid for being scared? for not telling me? Of course not. I get him the help and counselling he needs.

If another parent or adult (not a victim) knew the abuse was going on, but said nothing... I'd want to kill them too. But I would NOT blame any victims who kept silent.

There is one monster here... His name is Graham James. End of Story.


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12-15-2011, 04:36 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I must say the article was not really needed, but it did shed light on a fact I did not know about Fleury and James. I sympathize with what happened to Fleury... how can any human being not? I'm glad that Fleury is on a quest to bring awareness to child abuse. I also feel that victims should not feel pressure to speak out unless they are ready to.

But at the same time, I sympathize with the kids and parents of the kids who had to play under James as a coach... INCLUDING under Fleury's reign as GM. This article is the first time I read about that part of Fleury's life, and I am very upset that he enabled James even under his mental conditions. If my kids were playing for his team at this point, and I found out that he let this monster coach my kid knowing what he was capable of, I would never forgive him... but that's just me.

I'm sure Fleury feels bad about enabling James... and that is the way it should be.
Fleury WAS NOT a GM

He was a 1/18th minority owner in the team and a guy who made 0 hockey related decisions. He was one of the best players in the NHL, focused on his own career; this was an investment, not something he would actively be involved in running.

He did not encourage the team to hire Graham James... the team did so because James had a reputation as one of the best coaches in Junior Hockey. Memorial Cups, coach of the year awards, and the former coach of Joe Sakic and Theo Fleury.

The guy who took the Swift Current from a last place team that was mourning a bus accident that killed four players and in 2 years turned them into a Memorial Cup Champion with the brother of a deceased player leading the way.

Before the abuse stuff came out, James was damn near a hero, a miracle worker in the WHL. He was hired because it was believed he was the best person for the job.

Fleury didn't stop the hire, but he didn't make it either. The only way to stop the hire would have been to come forward and accuse the guy of abuse, and obviously Fleury was much too ****ed up to do that.

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12-15-2011, 04:42 AM
  #283
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Why are people absolving Fleury of all cognitive function? If the man is able enough to want Hickey's head on a stick now, or to do [whatever] he did in the NHL or to OWN A HOCKEY FRANCHISE. He's definitely able enough to fire Graham James, or to step in and say so.

I don't really care about Hickey or Fleury or James to be honest. But you can't just arm-chair psychoanalyze Theo Fleury and say he had PTSD or whatever the ****.

Fleury employed someone who was a known rapist. Years down the line he blames the justice system for its oversights. It's hypocritical and stupid. I don't care what Hickey wrote, maybe it was too inflammatory, but the facts are the facts and Fleury is an *******.

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12-15-2011, 04:53 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Why are people absolving Fleury of all cognitive function? If the man is able enough to want Hickey's head on a stick now, or to do [whatever] he did in the NHL or to OWN A HOCKEY FRANCHISE. He's definitely able enough to fire Graham James, or to step in and say so.
1/18th minority owner. No decision making power on hockey issues.

The ONE AND ONLY way Fleury could have gotten James fired was to say, "This man abused me."

But that is no different than what could have happened should any of his victims have stepped forward when James was hired in 1995.

If Kennedy spoke out in 1995 instead of 1997, James would have been fired then. Even though Kennedy wasn't the owner. Do we blame Kennedy for enabling James to be the coach of another junior team? Of course not. So why do we blame Fleury for his very minor stake in said team. It effectively made no difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't really care about Hickey or Fleury or James to be honest. But you can't just arm-chair psychoanalyze Theo Fleury and say he had PTSD or whatever the ****.

Fleury employed someone who was a known rapist. Years down the line he blames the justice system for its oversights. It's hypocritical and stupid. I don't care what Hickey wrote, maybe it was too inflammatory, but the facts are the facts and Fleury is an *******.
Why? Because the research damn well shows that Fleury was screwed up and incapable of any rational thought when it comes to his abuser.

You can ignore these facts, but millions of health care professionals don't.

You can ignore these facts, but the courts don't. (ie imagine Fleury in 1996, one day grabbed a gun and shot James in cold blood; I bet he'd be found not guilty of murder because of temporary insanity).

Why we ignore this, and instead choose to criticize Fleury for keeping quiet; I don't know.

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12-15-2011, 04:57 AM
  #285
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I wasn't aware of his small ownership role. Mea culpa.

What millions of health care professionals psychoanalyzed Fleury? Do tell me.

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12-15-2011, 05:00 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I wasn't aware of his small ownership role. Mea culpa.

What millions of health care professionals psychoanalyzed Fleury? Do tell me.
Not Fleury himself, but other victims of abuse.

Millions of health care professionals that analyze victims of abuse. There are hundreds of medical journals out there. The taking years to come forward, the drug and alcohol dependency, the ruinned marriages, the attempted suicides, these are common themes.

Fleury tells us he was emotionally and psychologically destroyed by the abuse. He goes into detail in his book. I'm pretty sure we can take him at his word when he tells us he wanted to speak out about James, but he was scared, confused, bitter, etc... etc...

Fleury being messed up psychologically is not some ground breaking revelation; it fits perfectly in line with what many adolescent (and even adult) victims of abuse go through. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that is why it took him so long to come out, rather than call him a money loving, attention seeking, hypocrite.

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12-15-2011, 06:02 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
As a famous celebrity who went through a lot of ****... don't you think Fleury speaking up and bringing attention to the issue does a lot for those people who never made it to the NHL? Don't you think it helps to bring awareness to all victims. Why should he be criticized for it.
He shouldnt be criticized. He should be applauded for facing his demons and slaying them. Furthermore... His book, for those calling it a marketing ploy or whatnot... Is an incredible read. I am an avid reader of books, I had his done in less than 2 days. It wasnt only me either, a few friends of mine had the same feelings about it.
This book could have sold itself IMHO.

A few things that I think that are left out, is that a guy like James... Isn't looking for the confident kid, he isn't looking for the kid with a great family life. He's looking at kids with flaws around them. That's what these guys do (or at least most of them)...

Fleury had both parents, but his father was a raging alcoholic, of whom Fleury admits to always trying to get his attention, and his mother was a prescription pills addict, who gave him horrible nightmares about religion (she was JW, and gave him a very early understanding of hell) perhaps a little too early.
Kennedy was from a broken home, their father ran away, and Graham came in, introduced Kennedy to booze, and played hero to his mom, by informing her of it. Her mother looking for a male role model thanked him profusely, and considered him a good man.

In my case, my parents are deaf. I was certainly affected socially by that. This isn't to say that they werent great parents (they were). Its that certain social cues were stunted a bit... Such as expression of emotion.

THAT'S who he/they went after. Kids with issues at home.

Another thing that should be mentioned, considering a topic of heavy debate is the Hitmen ownership group, ALSO included Sheldon Kennedy, who was bothered by Jame's to contribute. Yes, it was only a small amount... But I think it should be stated just so it's also contributing to the picture some are trying to paint.

Jame's himself was part owner of the Hitmen as well...

Then you have to look at perspective. As Theo puts it, he was brought in to the buy, with James coming to him, asking for money. He threw the money in as an investment, But DID think that Chynoworth (WHL Commissioner) was going to shoot down the deal, seeing as to there was the firings in Moose Jaw & Swift Current to consider (some peculiar behaviour was seen in James bac then). He could not believe the deal kept going forward and forward.

When Fleury invested in the Hitmen... He did so in fear of James. He still had this over Theo's head. I think people are thinking it comes down to an easy yes or no. It definately doesnt. Theo could have said no a few times... But James would've kept calling, and calling, and calling... By that point... Theo would have thrown money at the problem to make it go away. He wanted the phone to ring and have it NOT be Graham on the other side of the phone. He wanted to shake him off ANY time he called. Throwing money at the situation would have been an easy way to deal with the problem when it seems like an unlimited resource. By the point the hitmen came to be... Fleury was already on the downwards spiral in to addiction, and self-defecation. He was an owner with no ties to the Hitmen, just a bank account really.

But the abuser really sinks their hooks in. When they have power... It is incredible how things work in their favour. Especially being a young kid, looking up at them. My Coach, managed to get me on his team 3 times. The control was unreal... But to everyone else, he was a great coach, and great with kids. One of my good friends I admitted it to, was a guy on one of those teams... He was in disbelief. Honestly, he thought I was kidding around for a while... Until he saw that I wasnt laughing...
He was in complete shock, as I told him what happened.

But that's how I imagined EVERYONE would react if I told anyone, 'he's such a good guy' . 'no way!' . etc. etc.
Furthermore, the mind games... I'll say... I'm still scared ****less by that man. I was working many moons ago (the last time I ever saw him) I was a grown up by that point. Working at my job to put me through school. He came in as a customer. Came to me, said hi and all... asked me how things were and all... He needed a refill on his ink cartridge... I did it, and gave it to him... Free.
That messed me up for a long time. For the longest time I couldnt understand it... Here I was, I flat out HATED this guy... But I was nice as pie, respectful, heck... even did what he needed free of charge! There no doubt was a power he still held over me, even after I grew up. All I can say, was I wanted him gone, my mind was going nuts... He was asking me question after question about how things were...
what's going on... It seriously took me right back. I remember doing those cartridges... My hands, shaking like a leaf with adrenaline... It wasnt long after I found a new job for while I was still in school, just in thought that he might come back.

So yeah, I CAN excuse Theo for what was going on with the Hitmen situation... Because Theo was just trying to get himself safe again. Trying to ensure that he was gone, and out of his hair.

I think when it comes to Sheldon Kennedy coming out with the information, Theo was getting called regularly by Graham James to be a character witness. That's when he finally got strong enough to say no to James. Furthermore, when Sheldon came out with the story, its not as if he WAS in the clear. Almost everyone had an idea it was one of Fleury, or Sakic that Sheldon said was another abused hockey player.

Something to consider is the fact that even though he had reporters in his face DAILY asking him if he was the other victim (some being bold enough to tell him that they knew). He couldnt admit it to anyone then... He took another 15 years, and $25 million dollars spent on drugs, booze and strippers to admit it. That he was the other victim.

The offence that Hickey has in his articles is an ignorance to the damage of sexual abuse on victims. He thinks that because he was by proxy around those who were assaulted, and perhaps turned out ok... That everyone can do the same thing. Or that his experience is something somewhat relateable (the coach and the jock checking thing)... Sure, he is Lucky all right... Because trying to deal with what happened, has easily been the hardest thing to do. It's affected me big time... I think the only thing that should be thought about by way of Fleury is the fact that he is a survivor, first and foremost. Because he's been at war with his mind since it happened. I know I am, and based on his actions... I think he is as well. Because if Hickey finds it hard to forget about what his coach did to him with his jockstrap...

I also want to say Thanks to all those who appreciated what I had to say about this.It did make me feel better about posting it... Ive read the debate going on here over and over again... There is some fantastic insights on this thread for sure... I just want to say though that when someone DOES have something like this happen to them, and they shelter it... It's rediculous to throw blame on them for not coming out with the issue fast enough. I know in my experience, Ive kept it very close to my vest. This isnt some trivial pissing contest, like who can throw the log further, like on the Strongest man competitions. It's not about how Sheldon admitted and got heal faster, or that he is less morally corrupted. Or that he's 'done more' or is the 'better hero'...
It's the fact that Hickey's words on that page was similar to a shotgun blast right in to Fleury's psyche. The guy has all the negative feedback on twitter... For speaking out about something that is WRONG in the legal justice system. He had a fair and valid question in regards to how Graham James is essentially NOT thought of as a DANGEROUS FELON. It was during Fleury's sexual assault case that Fleury has these remarks for... It completely has to do with Theo Fleury the victim, and how the government issued their verdict on James in regards to HIS case, KNOWING Jame's background. Putting ANY blame on Theo is wrong. He's doing a lot of work trying to keep kids safe. He's trying to help adults over their past problems... He goes to meetings and talks to people, about addictions, and abuse. He re-tells his story, about what got him there. He needed his time to heal. After all the ******** Graham James put on him, as a developing boy, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVE he should be afforded that right (Time).

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12-15-2011, 06:35 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Why are people absolving Fleury of all cognitive function? If the man is able enough to want Hickey's head on a stick now, or to do [whatever] he did in the NHL or to OWN A HOCKEY FRANCHISE. He's definitely able enough to fire Graham James, or to step in and say so.

I don't really care about Hickey or Fleury or James to be honest. But you can't just arm-chair psychoanalyze Theo Fleury and say he had PTSD or whatever the ****.

Fleury employed someone who was a known rapist. Years down the line he blames the justice system for its oversights. It's hypocritical and stupid. I don't care what Hickey wrote, maybe it was too inflammatory, but the facts are the facts and Fleury is an *******.
Because the cognitive function is not an easy function to make, given his Specal Circumstance, when it comes to Fleury, James, and what happened. In another circumstance (If Fleury hired a coach, and allegations came...NOT involving Theo AT ALL) I'm sure he would have fired him. But when it comes to Fleury, James and their relationship... Business, professional, etc... He's not thinking with a clear mind, and NO he couldnt just step in and say so. He wasn't ready, he wasn't in the frame of mind... If he was going to go in there, and say James (who got the buying team together) wasnt fit to coach the team... No doubt, people would probably want to understand WHY. Theo thought this 'pillar of the community' would still be MORE accepted than he would have been. Even after Sheldon came out with the story... 3 Hitmen & parents complained often that James wasnt coaching anymore... This was AFTER Graham told the police that Sheldon and him were 'in love'... And how he felt that he should have lived in the Roman times, when that kind of love was more acceptable. One of those 3 guys still went out and visited Graham AFTER he got out of jail, due to his influence. I cant emphasize enough how predatory he was to these 2 kids (Sheldon and Theo).

The PTSD he was actually diagnosed with, and he mentioned in his book, also shows up quite often in his personality during his hockey career. He showed MANY, MANY of the symptoms of PTSD, and admitted that he was diagnosed with it. That's probably why people are discussing PTSD when it comes to Theoren Fleury.

He blames the justice system as a healthy man, in a case of a repeat sexual offender.His offender walked free that very day. It is a bad ruling, no doubt about it. Something DOES have to change there. He accepted James as coach as a victim still working out his problems (poorly), and had very little say in the matter. Furthermore, he was on so much drugs and alcohol trying to erase those problems... It was this man that is the stem of 9/10 of Fleury's issues. I dont think he would have been brave enough to tell this man he wasnt getting the job.

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12-15-2011, 06:48 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
That he called out fleury for knowingly endangering kids by having a pedofile as the coach of his team? Even though Fleury was a victim, I don't think it excuses him for putting many kids in danger... do you?
I think Hickey has a point and only one point, many seem to be missing. Fleury was commenting on how the Justice system failed by granting James a couple months bail. Not sure I disagree, but, how can Fleury be critical of the Justice System, when he, himself allowed James to be free, whether he was a victim or not was never in question here. I think it was poorly worded, poorly timed article, but find everybody in this political correct society needs to settle the hell down a bit.

What Hickey said is true, was it a little tasteless, sure. I'm not sure what Hickey thought he had to gain by writing the article either, I don't see how victims can be affected by this piece though. I think people just love having something to complain about, this week, it's Pat Hickey.

I didn't read it like others. Hickey didn't question Fleury for not coming out sooner, in fact, he said it was his right to keep quiet. What he did question was Fleury's comments about the judicial system, this is where he was being hypocritical and I agree.

Some people are offended by everything and because this is sensitive topic, many read what they want. I have np with the article, I don't think it helps or hurts victims either way, so it probably shouldn't have been printed.

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12-15-2011, 07:21 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I think Hickey has a point and only one point, many seem to be missing. Fleury was commenting on how the Justice system failed by granting James a couple months bail. Not sure I disagree, but, how can Fleury be critical of the Justice System, when he, himself allowed James to be free, whether he was a victim or not was never in question here. I think it was poorly worded, poorly timed article, but find everybody in this political correct society needs to settle the hell down a bit.

What Hickey said is true, was it a little tasteless, sure. I'm not sure what Hickey thought he had to gain by writing the article either, I don't see how victims can be affected by this piece though. I think people just love having something to complain about, this week, it's Pat Hickey.
Lots of people bring up that 'one point'...

But the difference is that the Justice System never suffered at the hands of a Graham James... Fleury did. Fleury had to take the mess, clean it all up, rationalize it... Build up the courage, admit it... Then heal.
It takes time (sometimes an incredibly long time) to rebuild a person back up to the point where they're even Strong enough to face that person again... AND accuse them of what they did.
The Justice System should NOT be doling out any favours, or catering to a flat out idiot lke Graham James. They should be throwing the book at him, and each and every case a person is found guilty of something like this.
In short, Fleury is NOW ready to deal with prosecuting James for his crimes. Why is it that James walks free? Espescially knowing how badly this case was handled the first time (with a pardon no less). The Justice System COULD HAVE gotten it right this time around. In terms of the severity of the crime, how does a repeat offender get granted Bail? That is ludicrous to think he's walking the streets TODAY! When he's been accused AGAIN.

Hickey's writing was flagrantly lacking vital information that HE should have looked in to before writing it down, and accusing Fleury as being an enabler. It's insulting, callous and he does deserve the ****storm he's now enduring.
I'm not a huge PC guy... trust me on that lol... But I can see how damaging his words were, and how much more crap he's shovelling on to himself by trying to stick up to his 'point' (like he had one). The guy is burying himself... He is grotesquely offside with his comments, and his comments are damaging to the guy going through a case where he's putting his assailant to trial.

One man is talking as the victim in regards to the legal actions as it is in HIS case, the other is throwing grenades trying to blow that guy up. There IS something wrong with that.

Victims are affected, because of the BS that comes with the story. Hickey is wrong. Fleury is dealing with a bunch of idiots writing on his twitter about how he's this, and that... and what not. It affects victims to see OTHER victims treated this way. In the public eye no less. Fleury was *****, and he is getting called out and being told that SOME of what James did is his fault. Hickey WROTE that THE sexual abuse victim was an enabler for the abuser, because he had a difficult time accepting what happened... And you arent seeing how that could be construed as offensive to other victims?

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12-15-2011, 08:53 AM
  #291
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A few points....

1) It's awful how so many think a victim of sexual abuse (as a child) should be able to act rationally right away and that the victim is a hypocrite and self-serving if it takes time. Fleury should be commended for doing what he can to raise awareness on this subject and what it means in terms of helping future victims. Better late than never. He's trying to make things harder on pedophiles and better for potential victims (or actual victims).

2) It's sad how so many of the Hickey apologists have been as lazy as him in terms of reading up on the issue. I can't believe how many here think Fleury was the GM or an active owner of the Calgary Hitmen in the mid-90's. Fleury was one of 18 investors, had a very small piece of the pie in terms of decision-making, and was scared to death of impacts on his life if anyone found out about what James did to him.

3) I've noticed that the actual victims who have wrote on this subject have mentioned that a victim of this horrific crime shouldn't be judged on the basis of the timing of when they speak up due to the emotional hardships/scarring this abuse has brought to their ability to rationalize/function as a human being. I've also noticed how Hickey and several non-victims on HF Boards think they understand how a victim should react in such a situation. This is nothing but pure ignorance.

The good thing about Hickey's damning article is that so many bright and more open-minded individuals have spoke out against it and tore his unsubstantiated ignorance to shreds. The sad thing is that Hickey and several others still don't get it and don't understand that a victim of such a horrific crime shouldn't be held up to the same standard of judgment/decision-making ability as someone who hasn't been a victim.

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12-15-2011, 09:34 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
A few points....

1) It's awful how so many think a victim of sexual abuse (as a child) should be able to act rationally right away and that the victim is a hypocrite and self-serving if it takes time. Fleury should be commended for doing what he can to raise awareness on this subject and what it means in terms of helping future victims. Better late than never. He's trying to make things harder on pedophiles and better for potential victims (or actual victims).

2) It's sad how so many of the Hickey apologists have been as lazy as him in terms of reading up on the issue. I can't believe how many here think Fleury was the GM or an active owner of the Calgary Hitmen in the mid-90's. Fleury was one of 18 investors, had a very small piece of the pie in terms of decision-making, and was scared to death of impacts on his life if anyone found out about what James did to him.

3) I've noticed that the actual victims who have wrote on this subject have mentioned that a victim of this horrific crime shouldn't be judged on the basis of the timing of when they speak up due to the emotional hardships/scarring this abuse has brought to their ability to rationalize/function as a human being. I've also noticed how Hickey and several non-victims on HF Boards think they understand how a victim should react in such a situation. This is nothing but pure ignorance.

The good thing about Hickey's damning article is that so many bright and more open-minded individuals have spoke out against it and tore his unsubstantiated ignorance to shreds. The sad thing is that Hickey and several others still don't get it and don't understand that a victim of such a horrific crime shouldn't be held up to the same standard of judgment/decision-making ability as someone who hasn't been a victim.
Actually it's the psychoanalysis of Hickey and the twisting of his every word that is the problem. It doesn't need to be this way, and there doesn't need to be the hatred towards an article that most people have eagerly and purposely misunderstood.

Hickey used all the qualifying words and statements to show that he wasn't blaming Fleury for anything that happened to him or others. He went out of his way to make this understood. His point was simple.

Fleury had good reasons to do what he did, but if he chose to remain silent for a period of time, he should not now come out blaming others for delays in justice.

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12-15-2011, 09:44 AM
  #293
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Actually it's the psychoanalysis of Hickey and the twisting of his every word that is the problem. It doesn't need to be this way, and there doesn't need to be the hatred towards an article that most people have eagerly and purposely misunderstood.

Hickey used all the qualifying words and statements to show that he wasn't blaming Fleury for anything that happened to him or others. He went out of his way to make this understood. His point was simple.

Fleury had good reasons to do what he did, but if he chose to remain silent for a period of time, he should not now come out blaming others for delays in justice.
How can you read the last 3 posts and write this drivel?

1) A victim should never be held to the same standards of action and thought that the Justice System should.

2) Fleury has EVERY ******* RIGHT in the world to speak out against how the justice system treats Graham James and every other molester out there. No question about it, the words of the victims, their stories, and the impact it had on their lives is of critical importance in understanding just how horrific this crime is, and how letting someone out on bail after being convicted is a joke.

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12-15-2011, 10:07 AM
  #294
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How can you read the last 3 posts and write this drivel?

1) A victim should never be held to the same standards of action and thought that the Justice System should.

2) Fleury has EVERY ******* RIGHT in the world to speak out against how the justice system treats Graham James and every other molester out there. No question about it, the words of the victims, their stories, and the impact it had on their lives is of critical importance in understanding just how horrific this crime is, and how letting someone out on bail after being convicted is a joke.
Nonsense. Fleury has been taking care of his own needs for some time and has little regard for anyone else. Hyperliberal hogwash masquerading as an emotional crusade for victims is phony and in true Fleury fashion self serving.

Fleury has now found the victim card to be quite rewarding and he'll snipe from the sidelines indefinitely now.

Hickey called him a hypocrite, which is mild.

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12-15-2011, 10:07 AM
  #295
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These are kids lives, that he knowingly put in danger!!! Of course you blame James... more than anyone! But how can you not put any blame on Fleury?
Because Fleury was a victim for God's sake! You should feel empathy, you should applaud him for coming finally having the courage to come forward. Do you even realize how difficult it must have been for him to not only tell the truth, but live with it inside all those years???

It's pretty sad to see how many people, no matter how little, cannot grasp the pain and difficulties of what it is like to be a victim.
Should he have spoken out earlier?? Of course, but I'm not going to put any type of blame on him for not doing so. The man was clearly dealing with some major issues, if anything, I feel bad for him.

Btw, I have a hard time understanding how you dared to say I was speaking from a high horse when you are sitting behind a cpu screen and calling out a VICTIM.
Who's really sitting on a high horse here..
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I think Hickey has a point and only one point, many seem to be missing. Fleury was commenting on how the Justice system failed by granting James a couple months bail. Not sure I disagree, but, how can Fleury be critical of the Justice System, when he, himself allowed James to be free, whether he was a victim or not was never in question here. I think it was poorly worded, poorly timed article, but find everybody in this political correct society needs to settle the hell down a bit.
The Justice System is relied upon to bring justice and make the proper decisions.
Theo Fleury was a victim who, clearly, was confused, lost and depressed.
How exactly are you even comparing both??

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12-15-2011, 10:10 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Nonsense. Fleury has been taking care of his own needs for some time and has little regard for anyone else. Hyperliberal hogwash masquerading as an emotional crusade for victims is phony and in true Fleury fashion self serving.

Fleury has now found the victim card to be quite rewarding and he'll snipe from the sidelines indefinitely now.

Hickey called him a hypocrite, which is mild.
The victim card to be quite rewarding?

I erased what I previously responded to this because I answered way too emotionally, but basically, you can't possibly think that way. In almost 5 years on these boards, I've had plenty of heated debates, some with posters I found truly annoying and bad, but I never ignored anybody. I truly believe you will be the first to make my list.
I can't believe you actually called this victim a phony and self serving. Seriously, what garbage.


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12-15-2011, 10:45 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I don't see where Hickey calls Fleury a hypocrite for not going public sooner... I only see him calling out fleury a hypocrite for giving **** to the judge that granted him bail or wtv it was, when he himself allowed James to be near kids.

Not all people that are abused enable their abuser to sexually abuse other kids, which happened in Fleury's case. I feel bad for Fleury because his messed up mind led him to do it, but he still did it! And should be held accountable.

I don't think it's unfair.
So, should we hold ALL his victims accountable except for the last kid he molested then? Who are we supposed to go after here? They all kept silent so who are we allowed to judge as being worthy of sympathy?
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I'm only going to say this one more time. it's not about speaking out sooner! Of course they don't have to speak out if they don't want to. Its about Fleury knowingly leaving his abuser in a position to abuse other kids! THat I cannot forgive, even though he was a victim and was messed up.

These are kids lives, that he knowingly put in danger!!! Of course you blame James... more than anyone! But how can you not put any blame on Fleury?
How can you only put blame on Fleury? Let's blame Kennedy too. Let's blame all the kids he abused...
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I still stand by what I said.

Why?

Not one person posting on this thread would stand in support of Fleury if their son was molested and ***** by James while working as "Coach" of the team that "Victim of Coach James" Theo Fleury co-owned.

Not one.

But I am the ****ing retard for pointing that out.

While you all are crying for Theo Fleury, please shed a tear for the kids that were molested and ***** while Coach James worked for Fleury. Those kids are the real victims in this story.
Why are they the real victims? They could've spoken out too right? Why didn't they?

Why do they get a 'free pass' from you when you are so quick to crucify Theo? You aren't making any sense here.
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I must say the article was not really needed, but it did shed light on a fact I did not know about Fleury and James. I sympathize with what happened to Fleury... how can any human being not? I'm glad that Fleury is on a quest to bring awareness to child abuse. I also feel that victims should not feel pressure to speak out unless they are ready to.

But at the same time, I sympathize with the kids and parents of the kids who had to play under James as a coach... INCLUDING under Fleury's reign as GM. This article is the first time I read about that part of Fleury's life, and I am very upset that he enabled James even under his mental conditions. If my kids were playing for his team at this point, and I found out that he let this monster coach my kid knowing what he was capable of, I would never forgive him... but that's just me.

I'm sure Fleury feels bad about enabling James... and that is the way it should be.
Those same kids you are asking us to feel sorry for are just as 'guilty' as Fleury was. They didn't speak out either. So why burn Fleury at the stake and not the others?

Seriously man, don't you see the contradiction here? They are all victims.


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12-15-2011, 10:55 AM
  #298
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Nonsense. Fleury has been taking care of his own needs for some time and has little regard for anyone else. Hyperliberal hogwash masquerading as an emotional crusade for victims is phony and in true Fleury fashion self serving.

Fleury has now found the victim card to be quite rewarding and he'll snipe from the sidelines indefinitely now.

Hickey called him a hypocrite, which is mild.[/QUOTE]


Thank you. This is what I've been thinking since he didn't get on the Flames roster. When he didn't get on the Flames he cried aloud. It's all been a business plan IMHO. When you start a business plan you generally look forward to the first five years. It's been over 2 years since Fleury's tryout with the Flames, and I think his business plan is doing just great. Nobody else gets that "I've put down the bottle and blow, was molested, came out, bought a few nice shirts and suits, have a hot wife, and therefore have more XP than you, thus entitling me to voice my grievances over yours," attitude and smug look almost every time he poses for a shot?
The smart thing for him to say would have been, "We'll see how the justice system deals with this," and let that be that until James gets his full sentence. If his full sentence is ridiculous, speak out with the rest of Canada and the world, because no doubt it'll be closely covered. Asking for somebody's immediate resignation or firing is immature and too quick. The man is a journalist, a very VERY respected one at that, and spoke his mind with the facts he had. Very solid facts. I think Canada should stop focusing so much on this until the trial. James is in Montreal. Do you not think a lot of the general public knows who this man is? He's a fat, ugly slob who embodies almost every characteristic of your TV pedophile. I doubt he's doing much with all eyes on him.
I support Hickey's views, I feel for Fleury to have gone through everything he's gone through, but I can't feel as bad for somebody who's profiting off it as much as he is. It's like if the US made money off of what happened on 9/11.

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12-15-2011, 11:11 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I think Hickey has a point and only one point, many seem to be missing. Fleury was commenting on how the Justice system failed by granting James a couple months bail. Not sure I disagree, but, how can Fleury be critical of the Justice System, when he, himself allowed James to be free, whether he was a victim or not was never in question here. I think it was poorly worded, poorly timed article, but find everybody in this political correct society needs to settle the hell down a bit.
To say this is about political correctness is to dismiss the seriousness of Hickey's error. This isn't about political correctness. This is about calling out a real person on horrific events. That goes well beyond being politically incorrect. Words hurt and he's going after one of Jame's victims. And that's detestable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
What Hickey said is true, was it a little tasteless, sure. I'm not sure what Hickey thought he had to gain by writing the article either, I don't see how victims can be affected by this piece though. I think people just love having something to complain about, this week, it's Pat Hickey.
I'm pretty sure that Fleury was affected by this piece. Doesn't he count as a victim?
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I didn't read it like others. Hickey didn't question Fleury for not coming out sooner, in fact, he said it was his right to keep quiet. What he did question was Fleury's comments about the judicial system, this is where he was being hypocritical and I agree.
Right, he didn't question him for coming out sooner. He said he had the right to stay silent.

The he turned around and questioned him for not coming out sooner...

It was pretty skillful in how he did it actually. I'll say this for him, he's a decent writer. Too bad what he decided to write about was so off base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Some people are offended by everything and because this is sensitive topic, many read what they want. I have np with the article, I don't think it helps or hurts victims either way, so it probably shouldn't have been printed.
I'm pretty sure Theo Fleury was hurt by this. And if you've read the experiences of some of the people in this thread who've suffered the abuse, it was disturbing for them as well.

I just don't see what Hickey was hoping to accomplish here. Bullying victims into speaking out is not the way to go.

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12-15-2011, 11:18 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by stubbadub View Post
Thank you. This is what I've been thinking since he didn't get on the Flames roster. When he didn't get on the Flames he cried aloud. It's all been a business plan IMHO. When you start a business plan you generally look forward to the first five years. It's been over 2 years since Fleury's tryout with the Flames, and I think his business plan is doing just great. Nobody else gets that "I've put down the bottle and blow, was molested, came out, bought a few nice shirts and suits, have a hot wife, and therefore have more XP than you, thus entitling me to voice my grievances over yours," attitude and smug look almost every time he poses for a shot?
The smart thing for him to say would have been, "We'll see how the justice system deals with this," and let that be that until James gets his full sentence. If his full sentence is ridiculous, speak out with the rest of Canada and the world, because no doubt it'll be closely covered. Asking for somebody's immediate resignation or firing is immature and too quick. The man is a journalist, a very VERY respected one at that, and spoke his mind with the facts he had. Very solid facts. I think Canada should stop focusing so much on this until the trial. James is in Montreal. Do you not think a lot of the general public knows who this man is? He's a fat, ugly slob who embodies almost every characteristic of your TV pedophile. I doubt he's doing much with all eyes on him.
I support Hickey's views, I feel for Fleury to have gone through everything he's gone through, but I can't feel as bad for somebody who's profiting off it as much as he is. It's like if the US made money off of what happened on 9/11.
You can't' feel as bad for somebody who's profiting off it? Did you actually just post this?

Would you trade places with Fleury? Would you want to have suffered through the *****, the traumas, the alcoholism? You sit there and talk like he's living the high life profiting off his own suffering. Would you really want his life?

You sit there and spew crap like him having a hot wife... are you really that blind?

And it just makes me shudder when I hear people throw around terms like 'hyperliberal' or 'hyperconservative'... these are just terms that people use to shut out the valid arguments that individuals come up with. It's a great way of running away from people's actual points.

Again, until you're ready to blame ALL James' victims, then I don't see how you can just scream at Fleury. He's just as much a victim as they were and like them, he stayed silent.

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