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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:37 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
To say this is about political correctness is to dismiss the seriousness of Hickey's error. This isn't about political correctness. This is about calling out a real person on horrific events. That goes well beyond being politically incorrect. Words hurt and he's going after one of Jame's victims. And that's detestable.

I'm pretty sure that Fleury was affected by this piece. Doesn't he count as a victim?

Right, he didn't question him for coming out sooner. He said he had the right to stay silent.

The he turned around and questioned him for not coming out sooner...

It was pretty skillful in how he did it actually. I'll say this for him, he's a decent writer. Too bad what he decided to write about was so off base.

I'm pretty sure Theo Fleury was hurt by this. And if you've read the experiences of some of the people in this thread who've suffered the abuse, it was disturbing for them as well.

I just don't see what Hickey was hoping to accomplish here. Bullying victims into speaking out is not the way to go.
Fleury is a survivor now, at some point you have to move on and get on with your life. I'm not saying I don't feel for Fleury and everything he has gone through, I do. At some point you have to move on though, he can still raise awareness and everything he is doing without being the central focus on all these discussions.

I don't think Hickey was bullying victims into speaking up either. Only the victims know when they are ready to deal with it, but being a victim doesn't give you a blank cheque to do what you like. Many of these predators were at one time victims themselves, it doesn't excuse their behavior.

I'm not even suggesting Fleury did anything wrong at all here. Just trying to see it from Hickey's angle. I have np with Fleury and what he is doing, I think more awareness is essential to limiting the amount of abusers who go unpunished, however, I don't believe that makes him immune to criticism.

I personally think the article was uncalled for and only served Hickeys agenda of a personal dislike for Fleury.

Just playing devils advocate here a bit. Trying to understand both sides.

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12-15-2011, 11:48 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So, should we hold ALL his victims accountable except for the last kid he molested then? Who are we supposed to go after here? They all kept silent so who are we allowed to judge as being worthy of sympathy?

How can you only put blame on Fleury? Let's blame Kennedy too. Let's blame all the kids he abused...

Why are they the real victims? They could've spoken out too right? Why didn't they?

Why do they get a 'free pass' from you when you are so quick to crucify Theo? You aren't making any sense here.

Those same kids you are asking us to feel sorry for are just as 'guilty' as Fleury was. They didn't speak out either. So why burn Fleury at the stake and not the others?

Seriously man, don't you see the contradiction here? They are all victims.
Who the **** do you think you are to put words in my mouth. I don't put the sole blame on Fleury... its obvious that Graham James is the real monster. And I would give Kennedy ****, and all the other victims **** if they ENABLED James to be in a position where he could do more damage to kids and victims the way Fleury did. You REFUSE to understand that part... put words in my mouth about how I blame all victims for not coming out sooner... I'VE NEVER ONCE MENTIONED THAT. In fact i've said the opposite... that they should only come out when the feel ready.

I give Fleury **** cause he enabled.... pure and simple. You cannot deny that he did. Search the definition on google ffs. Not every victim of James did this, nor should anyone ever put this pedofile or any other in a position to abuse more kids.

If you read his book, I'm sure even he realized it was a horrible thing to do. You guys are defending him when he already knows he was in the wrong.

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12-15-2011, 11:59 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Fleury is a survivor now, at some point you have to move on and get on with your life. I'm not saying I don't feel for Fleury and everything he has gone through, I do. At some point you have to move on though, he can still raise awareness and everything he is doing without being the central focus on all these discussions.
I think Fleury has tried to move on. All the guy did was speak out that these kinds of criminals shouldn't be getting the leniency that they do from our justice system. I don't think anyone disagrees with this do you?

That should've been that.

Mr. Hickey is the guy who's decided to make a story out of it.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't think Hickey was bullying victims into speaking up either. Only the victims know when they are ready to deal with it, but being a victim doesn't give you a blank cheque to do what you like. Many of these predators were at one time victims themselves, it doesn't excuse their behavior.
Sure.

But Fleury's not a predator. The only thing he's guilty of is staying silent. But ALL of James' victims stayed silent, so why is Hickey only going after Fleury?

Hammering Fleury as a hypocrite is bullying. I mean, what else would you call it? The guy is going after him for not coming forward sooner. And he does this right after saying it was okay for him to stay silent.

And what was Hickey's point in bringing up 'best selling' 'tell-all' book? I mean, what does that have to do with anything here other than to insinuate that Fleury is just out to make a buck off of the abuse suffered by himself and others?

That's about as low as you can go.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I'm not even suggesting Fleury did anything wrong at all here. Just trying to see it from Hickey's angle. I have np with Fleury and what he is doing, I think more awareness is essential to limiting the amount of abusers who go unpunished, however, I don't believe that makes him immune to criticism.
Nobody is immune to criticism. And yes, if he went on to become an abuser himself then he'd have to answer for it.

But none of that has happened here so I'm not sure why Hickey felt like he had to go after him for anything. We all know Fleury could've spoken out earlier but so could any one (or all) of James' other victims. Hickey singles out Fleury alone though and I don't think he thought about this before he wrote his article.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I personally think the article was uncalled for and only served Hickeys agenda of a personal dislike for Fleury.

Just playing devils advocate here a bit. Trying to understand both sides.
That's cool man. I think reasonable people can disagree on things too.

I feel pretty strongly about this one though and some of the posts that I have read from actual victims in this thread has only reinforced my resolve. It's one thing to argue for or against a rebuild of your hockey club... it's a whole other ball of wax when you actually discuss something that is of actual importance.

As for Hickey... I don't know why he wrote what he did. I suspect you might be right. Maybe he's got something against Fleury. I can't think of any other reason for him going after somebody who's been sexually abused. I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish here.

I get the feeling like Hickey's probably not a bad guy. He's just a guy who decided to write something controversial because he felt there was a story there. I don't think he fully thought it through before he wrote it. Now he's on the defensive and feels his reputation is at stake.

My hope is that he goes back and re-reads his article. My hope is that he realizes that he's been insensitive and probably shouldn't have written this.





Btw, we really need to draft top five soon or we're never going to win a cup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Who the **** do you think you are to put words in my mouth. I don't put the sole blame on Fleury... its obvious that Graham James is the real monster. And I would give Kennedy ****, and all the other victims **** if they ENABLED James to be in a position where he could do more damage to kids and victims the way Fleury did.
They did the same thing Fleury did. They kept silent.

So why are you only upset with Fleury here.

As for James, I'm pretty sure it was obvious that I was excluding him from my sole person to blame comment man. Not sure how you could misinterpret that. What I said was that you are solely blaming Fleury for not speaking out vs. the other victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
You REFUSE to understand that part... put words in my mouth about how I blame all victims for not coming out sooner... I'VE NEVER ONCE MENTIONED THAT. In fact i've said the opposite... that they should only come out when the feel ready.

I give Fleury **** cause he enabled.... pure and simple. You cannot deny that he did. Search the definition on google ffs. Not every victim of James did this, nor should anyone ever put this pedofile or any other in a position to abuse more kids.
Explain to me how Fleury enabled and the others didn't...

Any one of them could've spoken out about it. They didn't. Neither did Fleury. So if you're going to say Fleury 'enabled' James, you have to say the same for the rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
If you read his book, I'm sure even he realized it was a horrible thing to do. You guys are defending him when he already knows he was in the wrong.
Of course he feels guilty. ALL the victims feel guilty! That's part of what happens to you when you are abused at a young age. YOU feel like YOU did something wrong. Abusers use this to their advantage.

Of course Fleury wishes he'd come out sooner and I'm sure all the victims wish they had the strength to come out sooner too. I'm sure they ALL feel bad about this and Fleury has said as much for his part.

That doesn't mean that some journalist should come along and kick sand in the face of a guy who suffered through the abuse and wasn't strong enough to talk about it. It's mean spirited and unwarranted. Again, I don't think Hickey thought this through when he wrote the article because if he had, he'd have written it a different way.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-15-2011 at 12:05 PM.
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Old
12-15-2011, 12:26 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Who the **** do you think you are to put words in my mouth. I don't put the sole blame on Fleury... its obvious that Graham James is the real monster. And I would give Kennedy ****, and all the other victims **** if they ENABLED James to be in a position where he could do more damage to kids and victims the way Fleury did. You REFUSE to understand that part... put words in my mouth about how I blame all victims for not coming out sooner... I'VE NEVER ONCE MENTIONED THAT. In fact i've said the opposite... that they should only come out when the feel ready.

I give Fleury **** cause he enabled.... pure and simple. You cannot deny that he did. Search the definition on google ffs. Not every victim of James did this, nor should anyone ever put this pedofile or any other in a position to abuse more kids.

If you read his book, I'm sure even he realized it was a horrible thing to do. You guys are defending him when he already knows he was in the wrong.
Kennedy was also a part owner of the Hitmen. Just saying.

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12-15-2011, 12:33 PM
  #305
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Also for all those saying Fleury only did this for the money.

Complete and utter B.S.

The guy bared his inner most private thoughts, his inner most private regrets, his inner struggle getting over this out and to the public.

I'm sure its easier to deal with this anonymously and fleury could have done that.

What he did, to help others, took tremendous courage. It should not be questionned and made the part of ridicule.

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12-15-2011, 12:37 PM
  #306
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Also for all those saying Fleury only did this for the money.

Complete and utter B.S.

The guy bared his inner most private thoughts, his inner most private regrets, his inner struggle getting over this out and to the public.

I'm sure its easier to deal with this anonymously and fleury could have done that.

What he did, to help others, took tremendous courage. It should not be questionned and made the part of ridicule.
he should donate all his proceeds then... maybe then he'll get less criticism.

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12-15-2011, 12:53 PM
  #307
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He's donated huge sums of money. Not everything, but still large amounts of time and money.

He spent much time on the book, he should have done all that for free?

Who pays the publisher, co writer, agent, editor etc? Should they have done it for fre too?

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12-15-2011, 01:00 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He's donated huge sums of money. Not everything, but still large amounts of time and money.

He spent much time on the book, he should have done all that for free?

Who pays the publisher, co writer, agent, editor etc? Should they have done it for fre too?
Why did all this have to come out in a book at all?

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12-15-2011, 01:05 PM
  #309
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But you think guys like Fleury who are actual victims, shouldn't open their mouths 15 years later, because they were too ashamed, afraid, emotionally traumatized to do so then?

According to you, he's now given up his right to speak out because he wasn't ready to speak out at the same time Sheldon Kennedy did.
I have tried to tap dance around this entire issue for the sake of political correctness.

But enough of that.

Fleury was a victim of sexual abuse. He has my sympathy for that. Once Fleury put THE coach who abused him on his payroll to be around kids, I lost all respect for Fleury.

Show me in Canadian law, American law, the Bible, the Koran, anywhere..... where it is written that a VICTIM can become someone who victimizes people (or in this case, hire the coach who sexually assaulted him to keep coaching kids on his team) without having to account for that.

You show me where that is written and I will proclaim loud and clear that I am wrong.

God bless Fleury for having to endure what he did. He is not an innocent victim deserving our sympathies for paying the same coach who sexually assaulted him to continue sexually assaulting kids who came to play hockey on Theo Fleury's team. Fleury KNEW what was going to happen to those kids. Yet Fleury did nothing about it.

So to hell with Fleury. And if you think that is wrong for me to think that, so be it. I could care less. I am more concerned with the sexual abuse that those poor kids got from Fleury's hired coach. THEY are the ones deserving our sympathies. Not Fleury.

Hickey is 100% right.

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12-15-2011, 01:19 PM
  #310
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What law did Fleury break.? If he did he would have been charged. Fleury has broken no laws.

He was 1/18th owner of the team with no decision making power over who was hired. James was also an owner of the team, as was Kennedy, as was Bret Hart, as was Joe Sakic.

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12-15-2011, 01:21 PM
  #311
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Fleury didn't victimize anyone. He did nothing different than any other victim of james who stayed silent.

Not a single damn thing different than any victim who is scared to talk.

By your twisted logic every victim who is scared to talk is somehow responsible to the next victim.

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12-15-2011, 01:31 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Fleury didn't victimize anyone. He did nothing different than any other victim of james who stayed silent.

Not a single damn thing different than any victim who is scared to talk.

By your twisted logic every victim who is scared to talk is somehow responsible to the next victim.
The difference is the other victims didn't point fingers at yet other people for their "lack of action".

You've expressed your views here countless times and still don't understand that this is precisely the point of Hickey's article.

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12-15-2011, 02:42 PM
  #313
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The difference is the other victims didn't point fingers at yet other people for their "lack of action".

You've expressed your views here countless times and still don't understand that this is precisely the point of Hickey's article.
A victim can't criticize the justice system and the penalties it gives out?

Thats horse ****.

Who the hell is allowed to criticize the penalties given out under the law, if not the victims?

The guy is a multi time convicted pedofile rapist and he's walking the streets... Damn right the victims should speak out about this, there is no more powerful voice.


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12-15-2011, 02:58 PM
  #314
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Why did all this have to come out in a book at all?
A major celebrity coming forward helps all the other silent victims realize that its okay. It raises awareness of the issue and hopefully helps other victims.

It also raises awareness that coaches can be predators, and that we need to be more vigilant in looking at who is involved with our kids.

It further raises awareness about the lack of harsh penalties in the Justice system. 3.5 years for the assaults on Kennedy and another kid (who is still anonymous AFAIK), when James was convicted in 1999.

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12-15-2011, 03:00 PM
  #315
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I think at this point we've gone beyond discussing the ramifications of the article on a Montreal journalist's job (which clearly seems to have remained intact) and are now into a discussion better suited for, say, the politics board.

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