HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Washington Capitals
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2011 Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap Part 2

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-15-2011, 02:14 PM
  #976
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
Ovie sure has **** hasn't been the one sucking the the playoffs on this team...so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Exactly right. The playoffs are a case in point as to why Ovechkin isn't up at the top of the list of TEAM problems.

I sense GMGM is gonna have to take the bullet on this one if we don't turn it around and I fully expect him gone if we miss the playoffs somehow.

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:15 PM
  #977
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
Happy now?
 
NobodyBeatsTheWiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Old Town
Posts: 19,115
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
Ovie sure has **** hasn't been the one sucking during the playoffs on this team...so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Do you think he's really going to be able to flip the switch and be his former dominant self in the playoffs after a 60-70 point season? I don't.

NobodyBeatsTheWiz is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:17 PM
  #978
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
This goes to the crux of my argument. As much as we'd like the team to be more balanced around him, and we'd like them to step up when he's slacking off, it all comes back to #8.

It just doesn't happen where a team wins a Cup with their best player sucking. I don't think we can expect him to flip a switch and turn it on in the playoffs. It didn't work particularly well last season--his playoff scoring rates were down from previous years and he was average in the Tampa series.--and he's even worse this year than he was last year.
Well what about the years before that ...Montreal series, Pitt series, Philly etc..he dominated for long stretches and we still came up short.

I think the main problem on this team player wise is how the D is put together. Not nearly enough sandpaper and we have some slow footed guys back there on top of it.

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:21 PM
  #979
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
Happy now?
 
NobodyBeatsTheWiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Old Town
Posts: 19,115
vCash: 500
This is a different team than the one that faced Montreal, Pittsburgh, and especially Philly.

Better defense (when healthy), better bottom 6, and better goaltending personnel (though the performance hasn't been there yet).

NobodyBeatsTheWiz is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:21 PM
  #980
strungout
Professional Killer
 
strungout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 29,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Do you think he's really going to be able to flip the switch and be his former dominant self in the playoffs after a 60-70 point season? I don't.
If some adjustments are made to the roster....I honestly think he could break out of it now.

strungout is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:22 PM
  #981
romao
Registered User
 
romao's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kharkiv
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 144
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Thats not how you build a team. That is the problem here. We HEAVILY rely on Ovechkin. What about the rest of the guys and the mix GMGM assembled.

This smells like yet another rebuild if you ask me b/c Ovechkin's production took a dip when Hanlon instituted the trap and then BB last year.
Well, than we can say we heavely rely on Backstrom and Wideman too.
Backstrom has 23 points in wins, 8 points when the Caps lose
Wideman - 17P & 3P respectively
Semin - 9P & 2P
Laich - 13P & 6P
Brouwer - 11P & 5P

Only player who collects points equally good in wins & losses is John Carlson.

romao is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:25 PM
  #982
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
Happy now?
 
NobodyBeatsTheWiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Old Town
Posts: 19,115
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
If some adjustments are made to the roster....I honestly think he could break out of it now.
I don't disagree that adjustments need to be made, and those adjustments are the best chance to get Ovy back on track. My point is, if he was performing, there would be no talk about the failure in team building. And if he's not performing, it doesn't matter who the coach or GM is, they're not going to win a Cup.

NobodyBeatsTheWiz is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:28 PM
  #983
RandyHolt
Capitals Station
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 24,649
vCash: 1300
Ovi hit the switch last spring, did he not? We all wondered if he would or could all year, and he did. The thing I dont like about hitting the switch, is that the other players have to adjust. But its far from just Ovi, I have witnessed players changing/"upping" their games once the playoffs start for years. Going to the net, clearing the crease, hitting all of a sudden; most players change their games.

If our goalies alone were playing to reasonable expectations, things would be different. We can dog Ovi all we want, but we already had this discussion last year. We are ~7th in the league, goals scored per game. If you need to dog Ovi, dont overlook he still draws so much attention, that guys like Chimera probably have it a little easier out there at LW, don't you think? Fact is, we are scoring with or without him.

The elephant in the room is our team goals against. It's atrocious and has to be addressed.

RandyHolt is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:29 PM
  #984
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
This is a different team than the one that faced Montreal, Pittsburgh, and especially Philly.

Better defense (when healthy), better bottom 6, and better goaltending personnel (though the performance hasn't been there yet).
I agree with all that. But it begs the question why the we haven't seen the performance. It HAS to be the "mix". We have great parts that just don't seem to fit together for one reason or another.

Its been downhill since the Montreal series. That series affected the psyche of the team (and Ovechkin) and has done serious damage in my mind.

Thats why I think if we had gotten Chris Pronger all would be good in Caps land now and we would have won a cup or two by now.

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:31 PM
  #985
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Ovi hit the switch last spring, did he not? We all wondered if he would or could all year, and he did. The thing I dont like about hitting the switch, is that the other players have to adjust. But its far from just Ovi, I have witnessed players changing/"upping" their games once the playoffs start for years. Going to the net, clearing the crease, hitting all of a sudden; most players change their games.

If our goalies alone were playing to reasonable expectations, things would be different. We can dog Ovi all we want, but we already had this discussion last year. We are ~7th in the league, goals scored per game. If you need to dog Ovi, it must be his defense. He draws so much attention still, Chimera probably has it a little easier out there at LW, don't you think? Fact is, we are scoring with or without him.

The elephant in the room is our team goals against. It's atrocious and has to be addressed .
I wouldn't be shocked if Holtby wasn't given a chance here soon despite his poor play in Hershey. It could be another Jim Carey type boost that this team needs.

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:38 PM
  #986
strungout
Professional Killer
 
strungout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 29,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I don't disagree that adjustments need to be made, and those adjustments are the best chance to get Ovy back on track. My point is, if he was performing, there would be no talk about the failure in team building. And if he's not performing, it doesn't matter who the coach or GM is, they're not going to win a Cup.
Im pretty sure we'd still be *****ing about Semin and Schultz if Ovie was preforming and the team was higher in the standings.

The team isnt right...we all know it...Mafki just needs to fix it and get this **** going in the right direction again and Ovie will be fine.

strungout is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:38 PM
  #987
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
I hear what you are saying and that is a good point for sure. I do believe Ovechkin needs to perform to his contract, but like RH I think that is the least of the problems.
For example ..we have an awful 2nd line, terrible goaltending, and slow footed/soft D. I mean again..Pittsburgh was winning serious games last year without Malkin and Crosby and that is 18 million or so right there.

We have many things on the checklist before Ovechkin ...which is not to say that he isn't part of the problem.
How Ovechkin dropping from MVP to a 30g guy is the least of our problems....well lets just say that's friggen mind boggling to me.

The entire roster was built around this guy. Getting Ovy back to playing up to his ability is THE MAJOR problem on this team. When he's "on", the team usually plays a well. When he's "off", they're usually abysmal. End of story.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:40 PM
  #988
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
How Ovechkin dropping from MVP to a 30g guy is the least of our problems....well lets just say that's friggen mind boggling to me.

The entire roster was built around this guy. Getting Ovy back to playing up to his ability is THE MAJOR problem on this team. When he's "on", the team usually plays a well. When he's "off", they're usually abysmal. End of story.
Do you really think that is how to build a team? Around a left winger?

Conventional NHL wisdom suggests you build your team from the net out.

Goalie-Defensemen-Centers-Wingers..in that order. But again...even when Ovie was dominating in the playoffs we STILL lost. Do you pin that on him too? Was he the main problem in those playoffs dissappointments?

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:47 PM
  #989
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
this i understand my friend. much i yesterday i spent defending my position that before mcphee can significantly change the roster he must first know what he had in ovechkin and whether he is still capable of being the primary cog in the foundation.

there were numerous people who did not remotely agree with this
I think you're simply asking for something that can't be done reliably. How is McPhee or anyone running the team supposed to know if Ovy will return to form, or even why he's even failing now? Is there a crystal ball somewhere we don't know about? What you're suggesting is close to that.


McPhee knows 2 things...

1. that the current roster is failing.

2. He also knows that there's no legitimate physical issues that are stopping Ovy from producing like he has in the past.

Beyond that, unless Ovy has simply given up trying to be the best in the world, you don't make trades based upon some player prediction where you would be at best be making an educated guess as to what type of production you get from him down the road.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:50 PM
  #990
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,995
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
It just doesn't happen where a team wins a Cup with their best player sucking.
Or with no stability in net.

Langway is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:54 PM
  #991
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Do you really think that is how to build a team? Around a left winger?

Conventional NHL wisdom suggests you build your team from the net out.

Goalie-Defensemen-Centers-Wingers..in that order. But again...even when Ovie was dominating in the playoffs we STILL lost. Do you pin that on him too? Was he the main problem in those playoffs dissappointments?

Ideally, no. I would rather have a superstar center.

Like it or not, the Caps were dealt a superstar LW by the hockey gods. Those are the cards that they were dealt. EVERY single franchise would have built the roster around an Ovechkin. Where McPhee has failed is fitting the other pieces in around him.

Convential wisdom based on what? The Detroit Redwings Vezina winners who have single handedly led them to Cups?

McPhee has failed repeatedly when he's tried to address the D corp, but we all know that. Poti was his best FA move, then he inexplicably extends a guy who was walking on one leg. Good move followed by a blunder. Wideman is the next best, but we've needed a physical crease clearer with some attitude who is capable of top pair minutes, for what...13 years and we're still waiting.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:58 PM
  #992
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
If some adjustments are made to the roster....I honestly think he could break out of it now.
I do too....

I would love to see them bring in a quality forward and a physical defender with some attitude who is capable of logging big minutes as needed.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:58 PM
  #993
RandyHolt
Capitals Station
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 24,649
vCash: 1300
The adjustments that need to be made, are cutting our goals against. We score goals, does anyone here deny the numbers?

And know, that no team is built to win 4-3 anymore. Only a single team averages 3.5+ goals per game. The low scoring LeMew era dictates teams win games 3-2. With our goals against over 3, its a recipe for failure no matter how many more goals we think we need to score. We already score the requisite 3+. Which is more feasible, especially in the playoffs, trying to win 4-3, or 3-2?

Dale is implementing a defensive system. If he gets our goals against cut, look for wins with Ovi right on pace for 25 ugly ass goals. While we banter back and forth about Ovi and scoring goals, he has been trending into racking up assists instead of goals. He is getting things done out there, but he is adjusting his game, so you have to be patient. He is not broken. He can still skate and hit and shoot and you know it. His passing has improved, has anyone mentioned that?

If he can make teams respect his passing, the shooting lanes should open up. It will take years of passing to reprogram the Dmen out there.

RandyHolt is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 02:59 PM
  #994
BrooklynCapsFan
Waiting on the Isles
 
BrooklynCapsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 14,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
On the team building issue - is there a recent example of a team winning a Cup without it's best player? Or with it's best player sucking?
Um. Boston, 2011. You could argue Chara or Thomas are more important, but Savard was a ppg+ center.

BrooklynCapsFan is online now  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:08 PM
  #995
BobRouse
Registered User
 
BobRouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
Ideally, no. I would rather have a superstar center.

Like it or not, the Caps were dealt a superstar LW by the hockey gods. Those are the cards that they were dealt. EVERY single franchise would have built the roster around an Ovechkin. Where McPhee has failed is fitting the other pieces in around him.Convential wisdom based on what? The Detroit Redwings Vezina winners who have single handedly led them to Cups?

McPhee has failed repeatedly when he's tried to address the D corp, but we all know that. Poti was his best FA move, then he inexplicably extends a guy who was walking on one leg. Good move followed by a blunder. Wideman is the next best, but we've needed a physical crease clearer with some attitude who is capable of top pair minutes, for what...13 years and we're still waiting.
Agreed there. Its been good move mixed with bad. I really thought he was on the right track but should have known better when he let hannan walk and signed Hamrlik to a more expensive contract. Or giving Schultz that awful contract after he leeched off Green and Co. for one measly year.

But all that is hindsight I suppose. Going forward I hope he either gets fired or finally "gets it".

BobRouse is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:23 PM
  #996
CapitalsCupFantasy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
CapitalsCupFantasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 27,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Um. Boston, 2011. You could argue Chara or Thomas are more important, but Savard was a ppg+ center.
You could easily argue that Savard wasn't their best player. That goes to Chara/Thomas.


I'm in the camp that believes your best player needs to be at or close to his best for a team to win. Doesn't have to be a forward.

CapitalsCupFantasy is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:26 PM
  #997
blokeyhighlander
May = :golfnana:
 
blokeyhighlander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SC
Country: United States
Posts: 2,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Um. Boston, 2011. You could argue Chara or Thomas are more important, but Savard was a ppg+ center.
...

Sorry, but that's not a good example. Thomas was the Bruins best player all season and in the playoffs.

When you have someone like Ovechkin taking up such a large cap hit, it limits how you build your team. However, on paper, going into this season we had an amazing team and you're not going to find too many people argue otherwise. Some people didn't like Semin and Schultz, but having Semin in a contract year and the D that was good enough to legitimately push Schultz to a healthy scratch even under Bruce warranted lots of excitement. We seemingly solved our goaltending issues with Vokoun, and MoJo by all indications was going to be an adequate 2C potentially developing into an above average 2C. This team just hasn't delivered, and early signs are indicating that it wasn't the coach.

After the initial winning spark of Oveckin becoming captain, this team has been gradually spiraling downhill. I'm not saying that's the issue - it might be contributing, but that's the season his production started to slip compared to the previous elite seasons. I think our player leadership is very suspect, and that begins and ends with the captain. You hear of other captains holding their players accountable, but you just don't seem to get that with Ovechkin.

I also don't get the argument that Ovechkin has been delivering in the playoffs if you look at last year's post season. Did he do better in the playoffs than he did in the regular season? Yes, but he still wasn't the force he's been in the past, and his shot was still a shell of it's former self.

If you have the highest cap hit player in the league and your team is not delivering, those problems probably stem from that player, whether it be a direct (his performance) or indirect (limited supporting cast because of cap issues) reason.

On paper, this team kicks ass. In reality, this team comes short of underwhelming.

blokeyhighlander is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:26 PM
  #998
ChibiPooky
Moderator
Yay hockey!
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Fairfax, VA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
You could also easily argue that Savard wasn't their best player. That goes to Chara/Thomas.
You could easily argue that Backstrom is the Caps' best player.

ChibiPooky is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:29 PM
  #999
IafrateOvie34
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
I do too....

I would love to see them bring in a quality forward and a physical defender with some attitude who is capable of logging big minutes as needed.
That is a lot to ask in today's NHL. Too many teams needing those players, especially a physical defenseman.

IafrateOvie34 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 03:32 PM
  #1000
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 41,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
I think you're simply asking for something that can't be done reliably. How is McPhee or anyone running the team supposed to know if Ovy will return to form, or even why he's even failing now? Is there a crystal ball somewhere we don't know about? What you're suggesting is close to that. .
you dont think the mcphee has a much different perspective on ovechkin than we do? he knows the truth. he knows if he is hurt. he knows if his attitude or commitment to the game has significantly changed.

he knows if ov is maxxed out and what he is getting is all there is or not.

so, yea. i expect that mcphee as ovechkin's boss knows a lot more about the situation than we do.

txpd is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.