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Messier battling Canucks for $ UPD: Awarded $6m by Arbitrator

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:28 PM
  #76
kevinsane
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I'd take it in potato chips. How's that for honesty?

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:31 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by M A K A V E L I View Post
The value of the Canucks started steadily jumping up around 2001. Messier was gone by then. The team was in shambles during the time Messier was here.
The time period will be set out in the contract. It may have run beyond the term of his playing contract. That information will likely come out in due course.

According to Dreger it is a substantial amount of money.

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12-15-2011, 10:32 PM
  #78
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I think it's premature to say he is or isn't owed money unless we know the exact wording of the clause.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:37 PM
  #79
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I have to laugh at all these claims of so much "integrity" and "pride" that they wouldn't try and collect millions of dollars they were contractually entitled to. "Naw Mr.Aquilini you keep those multi millions you owe me...I have integrity"
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It is humourous.
Impugning the integrity of others because of your own lack of character isn't exactly a good way to make such an argument.

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12-15-2011, 10:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Somehockeydude View Post
Impugning the integrity of others because of your own lack of character isn't exactly a good way to make such an argument.
I am laughing at the naivete.

These wacky kids today.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The time period will be set out in the contract. It may have run beyond the term of his playing contract. That information will likely come out in due course.

According to Dreger it is a substantial amount of money.
Another questions is, if they pay him out will it be allowed to be considered an expense for the year? In terms if revenue sharing

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:42 PM
  #82
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I am laughing at the naivete.

These wacky kids today.
I am saddened by your ignorance and lack of class. There are many people who wouldn't take that money. Certainly not the majority but there is still a significant minority of us that have integrity. Even if its clear that you consider that notion childish.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Somehockeydude View Post
Impugning the integrity of others because of your own lack of character isn't exactly a good way to make such an argument.
I think its easy to talk "integrity" when you aren't in a situation that Messier is in. I don't believe a person has a "lack of character" if they try and get money thats owed to them. I actually think it takes more integrity to be honest in these situations and claims of turning down millions owed is disingenuous at best, but you cling to these ideals if it makes you feel better about yourself.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:47 PM
  #84
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Give us 3 years of great hockey and we'll gladly pay you.

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12-15-2011, 10:49 PM
  #85
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Give us 3 years of great hockey and we'll gladly pay you.
I don't think anyone signs a contract to play "great hockey".

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:51 PM
  #86
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I am laughing at the naivete.

These wacky kids today.
Dude, I am 50. I know exactly what my values are and I am pretty damned far from "naive". I'm not Messier, and maybe he has I'll will towards the Canucks. I don't know. I do know, EMPHATICALLY, that I would not take money, be it a dollar or a million, if I didn't believe I'd done my part to earn it. In Messier's case, legally, he didn't have to "earn" it. It doesn't mean it's ethical, at least in my eyes.

I respect your tenure, your background, and your opinion. Don't pretend that qualifies you to judge me.

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12-15-2011, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I think its easy to talk "integrity" when you aren't in a situation that Messier is in. I don't believe a person has a "lack of character" if they try and get money thats owed to them. I actually think it takes more integrity to be honest in these situations and claims of turning down millions owed is disingenuous at best, but you cling to these ideals if it makes you feel better about yourself.
Agreed. I'm going through a lawyer situation now trying to get money that is owed to me. If you owe and agreed to a contract, you pay.

People may hate Messier but he's owed that money.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:55 PM
  #88
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Dude, I am 50. I know exactly what my values are and I am pretty damned far from "naive". I'm not Messier, and maybe he has I'll will towards the Canucks. I don't know. I do know, EMPHATICALLY, that I would not take money, be it a dollar or a million, if I didn't believe I'd done my part to earn it. In Messier's case, legally, he didn't have to "earn" it. It doesn't mean it's ethical, at least in my eyes.

I respect your tenure, your background, and your opinion. Don't pretend that qualifies you to judge me.
The fact that the clause entitles him to money based on the value of the franchise value going up does mean he EARNED the money. If the value of the franchise went down then he wouldn't be entitled to anything extra. Don't blame Messier, blame the people who signed him to the stupid contract.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Somehockeydude View Post
I am saddened by your ignorance and lack of class. There are many people who wouldn't take that money. Certainly not the majority but there is still a significant minority of us that have integrity. Even if its clear that you consider that notion childish.
its pretty easy to talk in hypotheticals, but a contract is a contract and integrity doesn't really enter the equation here.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:15 PM
  #90
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its pretty easy to talk in hypotheticals, but a contract is a contract and integrity doesn't really enter the equation here.
In principle I agree with kevinsane and the other guy, as the money in dispute is more or less some loose cash sitting in a billionaire's back pocket and not a portion of collective wealth for the City of Vancouver. Going for what is contractually yours in this case isn't really a matter of integrity. On the other hand a person of integrity would battle for the money he is contractually owed but then give the earnings to a local charity. That would be the classy thing to do.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:22 PM
  #91
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Betcha can't do just one...

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:25 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Somehockeydude View Post
I am saddened by your ignorance and lack of class. There are many people who wouldn't take that money. Certainly not the majority but there is still a significant minority of us that have integrity. Even if its clear that you consider that notion childish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinsane View Post
Dude, I am 50. I know exactly what my values are and I am pretty damned far from "naive". I'm not Messier, and maybe he has I'll will towards the Canucks. I don't know. I do know, EMPHATICALLY, that I would not take money, be it a dollar or a million, if I didn't believe I'd done my part to earn it. In Messier's case, legally, he didn't have to "earn" it. It doesn't mean it's ethical, at least in my eyes.

I respect your tenure, your background, and your opinion. Don't pretend that qualifies you to judge me.


Are you ******** me? What, if someone owes you millions of dollars you're going to go high road? You'll say: "Well, I've got this legally binding contract that says you defaulted on payment into the millions of dollars...but I've got integrity! I don't personally feel I deserve it, so you can keep it!" I'm sooooooo sure. You have no idea what I've seen done to people over debts barely into four digits.

------------------------------

Who the bloody hell negotiated Messier's contract?! WTF kind of illiterate, brain-dead troll pushing around the mail cart in the bowels of the arena was allowed to use Messier's contract as his LSAT essay question? Increasing franchise value was actually a clause?! Jesus H tap dancing Christ.

If we still owe Messier, pay the **** now and move on. Get rid of him.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:27 PM
  #93
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The fact that the clause entitles him to money based on the value of the franchise value going up does mean he EARNED the money. If the value of the franchise went down then he wouldn't be entitled to anything extra. Don't blame Messier, blame the people who signed him to the stupid contract.
No it doesn't. One can be owed money they didn't earn. If I tell you that I will give you 50 bucks tomorrow and I sign a contract to that effect I will owe you 50 dollars, that doesn't mean that you earned it. If my rich uncle Milbert dies and I inherit 5 million dollars, I am owed it, it doesn't mean I earned it. I don't blame Messier for being owed it, I blame him for his classless actions off the ice and his horrific play on it.

He didn't earn the money he got from his contract. Not even close to it much less some kind of bonus based upon an increase in franchise value. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be able to collect if that's what the contract says.


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its pretty easy to talk in hypotheticals, but a contract is a contract and integrity doesn't really enter the equation here.
Only someone without integrity would say that. Integrity isn't a matter of degrees or circumstance, either you have it or you don't. You can come up with whatever type of rationalizations you need to in order to sleep at night but that doesn't change the reality that they are simply rationalizations.

I realize that if Messier he has a legal right to the money then he deserves to be able to collect on that money but being legally entitled to something doesn't mean your morally entitled to it. In this case I don't believe that services were rendered in good faith. I don't know the wording or the circumstances surrounding the signing of the contract so I can't say whether he deserves it or not based on the morality of the situation. Just like none of you can unless you have seen the wording and understand the surrounding deal.

I do however find the implication that the team was made more valuable because of the presence of Messier to be rather repugnant which is the case regardless of the merits of his case.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:34 PM
  #94
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its just a contract

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:39 PM
  #95
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So, Messier doesn't have integrity and isn't "morally entitled" to the money.

But Aqualini somehow is? Maybe Messier will donate it to the new Children's Hospital or something.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:39 PM
  #96
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Mark Messier's net worth is estimated at $55 million.

If he collects and keeps money because the Vancouver Canucks increased in value during and after his tenure, and can sleep at night, I don't know what to say.


Last edited by kevinsane: 12-15-2011 at 11:45 PM.
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Old
12-15-2011, 11:50 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Somehockeydude View Post
No it doesn't. One can be owed money they didn't earn. If I tell you that I will give you 50 bucks tomorrow and I sign a contract to that effect I will owe you 50 dollars, that doesn't mean that you earned it. If my rich uncle Milbert dies and I inherit 5 million dollars, I am owed it, it doesn't mean I earned it. I don't blame Messier for being owed it, I blame him for his classless actions off the ice and his horrific play on it.

He didn't earn the money he got from his contract. Not even close to it much less some kind of bonus based upon an increase in franchise value. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be able to collect if that's what the contract says.




Only someone without integrity would say that. Integrity isn't a matter of degrees or circumstance, either you have it or you don't. You can come up with whatever type of rationalizations you need to in order to sleep at night but that doesn't change the reality that they are simply rationalizations.

I realize that if Messier he has a legal right to the money then he deserves to be able to collect on that money but being legally entitled to something doesn't mean your morally entitled to it. In this case I don't believe that services were rendered in good faith. I don't know the wording or the circumstances surrounding the signing of the contract so I can't say whether he deserves it or not based on the morality of the situation. Just like none of you can unless you have seen the wording and understand the surrounding deal.

I do however find the implication that the team was made more valuable because of the presence of Messier to be rather repugnant which is the case regardless of the merits of his case.
You are just letting your dislike of Messier cloud your reasoning. You may not think Messier "earned" his money but the law says he did. Your morals and integrity don't mean anything according to the law. Messier signed a contract to play hockey, he didn't sign anything saying he had to perform to a certain level to get paid, thus he EARNED his money. Just as if you signed a contract to pay me $50 to do nothing. If I do nothing, I earned that money. Just because you (or anyone) don't like the outcome of the deal doesn't mean he has a moral obligation not to take it. You aren't standing on some moral high ground here by saying you wouldn't take the money, only an idiot wouldn't take millions of dollars owed to them contractually.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:52 PM
  #98
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WTF people.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with integrity, honesty, entitlement or any of that crap. Morality does not apply.

This is black letter contract law. If Messier is still owed, pay him the **** off and get rid of him NOW. This is the absolute last thing on the planet the team needs; more ****** publicity.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:53 PM
  #99
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Messier is one of the biggest DBs in nucks history BUT a contract is a contract. Its the stupidity of the canucks to have signed it.

He should get paid based on the law, even tho i feel like smashing his face with a chair.

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:56 PM
  #100
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Meh...unfortunately, if Messier is owed money by the terms of the contract he signed, he is owed money. No real way around it.

I don't think it will stop anyone from thinking he's a money grubbing piece of dirt who did virtually nothing for this franchise during his three grossly well paid years here, after which he bolted back to broadway faster than you can say "suckers".

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