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Have you lost faith?

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Old
12-15-2011, 11:53 PM
  #1
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Have you lost faith?

Simple question after about 2 months and half of mediocre hockey relying every ****ing games on our goaltender to get pts.. There is no sign of improvement, the guys dont seem to push in the same direction, they dont support each others, there is no structure in front of Carey Price let to many times alone..

I know about 99.9% of the fans want Martin out but do you really think it will solve all our probs? Ive been saying it for a while and will say it again, ending the season out of the series, finishing something like 9-10-11th would be a major setback for this franchise, not only you cant danse with the other teams for a chance to win the Cup but the chances to draft an elite talent are pretty slim as well.. I think its a crucial time for the future of this team, something has to happen, either you find a way to redress the situation or you drop the king for the next 3-4 years starting a real rebuilt keeping your young core players, signing them long term and trading your older assets..

But I will come back to the original question.. Have you lost faith in this team to make the playoffs or doing anything positive if ever we clinch by the backdoor?

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12-16-2011, 12:01 AM
  #2
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Gotta move Cammy Gionta Gomez. You can't invest 18 million in three players who absolutely do nothing to help the team on the ice and expect to have a contender.

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12-16-2011, 12:02 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Simple question after about 2 months and half of mediocre hockey relying every ****ing games on our goaltender to get pts..
Interesting statement. Can't see how I can possibly agree. Montreal is not particularly goaltending-dependent this year. Not that Price has been bad, but with the 18th save percentage in the league, he hasn't precisely been lights-out. Montreal still manages to be one of the 10 best defensive clubs in the game, despite being the most battered club in the NHL, by virtue of strong defensive play -- 5th lowest shot against total. They simply don't need outstanding goaltending, and the goaltending they've received from their goalie tandem has in fact been about average save by the fact that they haven't gotten blown out. And Price has yet to "steal" a game this year, either.

Considering that the Habs are 1-5 in the shootout, in no small part due to below-average goaltending, one could even contend goaltending is costing the team points. But I wouldn't ascribe too much value to the shootout.

I know this goes against the prevailing narrative about Montreal's goaltending, but it's just "okay" so far this year.

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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
There is no sign of improvement
Except the 105-point pace record in December, I suppose. Which has pretty much been their pace since game 8 of the season, so it's not just December.

But aesthetically, I doubt the team will improve much until it gets healthier. It's quite impressive how competitive the team has been while constantly playing with 15 million plus on IR. We've seen a salary floor team pretty much all year, small wonder they look bad... well, sort-of bad.

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12-16-2011, 12:04 AM
  #4
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On the bright side Kaberle has a point streak

but sadly I have 0 faith, only way we improve is if Management gets an overhaul, seriously.

I believe we have a great team talent wise, deep, and such but our Mgmt was awful for it.

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12-16-2011, 12:05 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Interesting statement. Can't see how I can possibly agree. Montreal is not particularly goaltending-dependent this year. Not that Price has been bad, but with the 18th save percentage in the league, he hasn't precisely been lights-out. Montreal still manages to be one of the 10 best defensive clubs in the game, despite being the most battered club in the NHL, by virtue of strong defensive play -- 5th lowest shot against total. They simply don't need outstanding goaltending. And Price has yet to "steal" a game this year, either.

Considering that the Habs are 1-5 in the shootout, in no small part due to below-average goaltending, one could even contend goaltending is costing the team points. But I wouldn't ascribe too much value to the shootout.



Except the 105-point pace record in December, I suppose. Which has pretty much been their pace since game 8 of the season.

But aesthetically, I doubt the team will improve much until it gets healthier. It's quite impressive how competitive the team has been while constantly playing with 15 million plus on IR. We've seen a salary floor team pretty much all year, small wonder they look bad.
Seriously ? Price is the ONLY reason we are even close to being in the playoff hunt......No way you watch the games every night.

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12-16-2011, 12:07 AM
  #6
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No. We're one coach and one centre from being a Cup contender. The current coach, though, won't cut it. We also need one big, top centre. Cammi, Gio, and Gomer (not so much that last one) have to be the bait.

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12-16-2011, 12:08 AM
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No. We're one coach, GM and one centre from being a Cup contender. The current coach, though, won't cut it. We also need one big, top centre. Cammi, Gio, and Gomer (not so much that last one) have to be the bait.
Fixed that for you.

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Old
12-16-2011, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Simple question after about 2 months and half of mediocre hockey relying every ****ing games on our goaltender to get pts.. There is no sign of improvement, the guys dont seem to push in the same direction, they dont support each others, there is no structure in front of Carey Price let to many times alone..

I know about 99.9% of the fans want Martin out but do you really think it will solve all our probs? Ive been saying it for a while and will say it again, ending the season out of the series, finishing something like 9-10-11th would be a major setback for this franchise, not only you cant danse with the other teams for a chance to win the Cup but the chances to draft an elite talent are pretty slim as well.. I think its a crucial time for the future of this team, something has to happen, either you find a way to redress the situation or you drop the king for the next 3-4 years starting a real rebuilt keeping your young core players, signing them long term and trading your older assets..

But I will come back to the original question.. Have you lost faith in this team to make the playoffs or doing anything positive if ever we clinch by the backdoor?
Based on HF postings, you are about 40% off on that number.

Yep, lost faith in Martin the first season here when we faced the Flyers and he press boxed O'Byrne and then watched our D get manhandled.

Its been a tough year and a half for me. This team is like a duck with one leg. Swimming hard and not getting anywhere.

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Old
12-16-2011, 12:15 AM
  #9
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we're the 07-09 panthers under JM forever in 9th place with a hot goalie.

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12-16-2011, 12:16 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
Seriously ? Price is the ONLY reason we are even close to being in the playoff hunt......No way you watch the games every night.
That's just the prevailing story. The media say that because that's what they've been trained to say every single year.

That, plus seeing several quality saves every game and not realizing that a league-average goaltending is expected to make such saves every games (otherwise he'd be below league-average). So it looks like Price saves the day several times a game because that's what a typical NHL-quality starter does. And when he doesn't, it's someone else's fault and Price just couldn't save his ass. The difference is in the frequency in which this happens.

Here is the thing that the media won't tell you: Montreal's goaltending has been roughly league-average. Montreal's defense has been very strong. That's probably a good thing, because Price is quite capable of improving on .917 (18th in the league).

Of course, it probably also forces the conclusion that Martin must be doing something right, especially given his battered blueline. Good luck getting many people to admit that though.

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12-16-2011, 12:27 AM
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"Price is the only reason we win games", the same reason Thomas was the only reason the Bruins won the cup last year, the same reason the Habs won the cup in 1993.

In other words, sure, if you downplay the contribution of the people in front of him.

You know we haven't really been outshot that often this year, right? We have a lot more issues on offense than we do defense, even with injuries, but whatever story floats your boat.

Interesting that this topic comes after a game where we matched the best team in the East, and should have gotten a point if the reffing wasn't terrible. Also a game where Price was good but not great, as the last goal proved...

I've become a big Price fan, he's really a great goalie, he's among the best in the league but he's probably not even the best in the league, yet apparently he's the only goalie in the league that ever is the best player for his team...

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12-16-2011, 12:33 AM
  #12
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Based on HF postings, you are about 40% off on that number.
NewHabsEra........

See what I mean.

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Old
12-16-2011, 12:37 AM
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I've lost faith in Gauthier in that I'm still not sure he recognizes what we need to build a contender. Gauthier's move seem to all be with a short term view. Plugging this hole or addressing this need. I don't see any BUILDING. Similar to the Gainey philosophy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it ignores the bigger picture in order to maintain the status quo.

I've also lost faith in Martin as well. One consistent with Martin was that this team could milk a lead and score on turnovers. Right now the opposite is happening in that they can't hold a lead at all. I've normally given Martin the benefit of the doubt in roster moves, but I can't help but look at teams like Philly, Boston and Pittsburgh that seem to trust their young players more and feed off their energy. Tonight, even when Montreal pushed the message, it always felt like Philly wanted it more. We had 2 lines that really showed that energy and one of those lines I think saw 4 minutes. Martin is good at implementing his system, but he isn't a good communicator and doesn't adapt on the fly well. There also seems to be a distinct lack of creativity. I'm not saying we don't have to reel some players in, but no one seems to be able to really let loose. That hurts guys like Cammy, Gio and Plekanec who don't have the size to grind it out against top defenders. DD has the benefit of Cole and Patches creating room for him to do his thing.

I think what we REALLY miss is Muller behind the bench. He was that bridge between Martin and the players. We don't have that right now and its pretty noticeable. We need someone like Muller back there, someone that can coach the PP and act as Martin's emotion. Really happy that Muller got the gig in Raleigh, but I miss him behind the bench in Montreal.


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Old
12-16-2011, 12:47 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's just the prevailing story. The media say that because that's what they've been trained to say every single year.

That, plus seeing several quality saves every game and not realizing that a league-average goaltending is expected to make such saves every games (otherwise he'd be below league-average). So it looks like Price saves the day several times a game because that's what a typical NHL-quality starter does. And when he doesn't, it's someone else's fault and Price just couldn't save his ass. The difference is in the frequency in which this happens.

Here is the thing that the media won't tell you: Montreal's goaltending has been roughly league-average. Montreal's defense has been very strong. That's probably a good thing, because Price is quite capable of improving on .917 (18th in the league).

Of course, it probably also forces the conclusion that Martin must be doing something right, especially given his battered blueline. Good luck getting many people to admit that though.
Cant believe you really think what you say.. Let the ****ing stats aside one sec and just watch the games, Price has been the only reason why we are still alive Jesus Christ, He is one of the most used in the league and keep playing at a very very high level all the time, no softies, always focussed, always solid like a rock despite a pretty soft unstructured team playing without any confidence.. As you said our blueline was easily the less experienced in the league for a good moment, kids played rather well in the whole but it still was inconsistent and porous at time if you compare it to any decent blueline in the league.. Price saved our ass so many times, too bad you have a very short memory or you just cant appreciate Price at his real value.. Name me 1 defenseman who has played like a real top 4 since the begin of the season? Subban? lol Outside maybe Gorges, we have none and when Gorges is your best defeseman, and with all due respect to the guy, we are in trouble.. How many teams in the league would play Gill as a regular? If at least our fowards were doing what JM ask them to do, coming back low to help the transition, but they havent been doing this, some guys refuse to play JM' system thats obvious.. It gives what we are seeing, an inconsistent, disorganised and porous team that lost any confidence.. Anyway I cant argue with you anymore if you dont think Price has been a monster in the net this season giving us a chance to win every nights despite a serious lack of structure in front of him...

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12-16-2011, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's just the prevailing story. The media say that because that's what they've been trained to say every single year.

That, plus seeing several quality saves every game and not realizing that a league-average goaltending is expected to make such saves every games (otherwise he'd be below league-average). So it looks like Price saves the day several times a game because that's what a typical NHL-quality starter does. And when he doesn't, it's someone else's fault and Price just couldn't save his ass. The difference is in the frequency in which this happens.

Here is the thing that the media won't tell you: Montreal's goaltending has been roughly league-average. Montreal's defense has been very strong. That's probably a good thing, because Price is quite capable of improving on .917 (18th in the league).

Of course, it probably also forces the conclusion that Martin must be doing something right, especially given his battered blueline. Good luck getting many people to admit that though.
I lol'ed.

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12-16-2011, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
"Price is the only reason we win games", the same reason Thomas was the only reason the Bruins won the cup last year, the same reason the Habs won the cup in 1993.

In other words, sure, if you downplay the contribution of the people in front of him.

You know we haven't really been outshot that often this year, right? We have a lot more issues on offense than we do defense, even with injuries, but whatever story floats your boat.

Interesting that this topic comes after a game where we matched the best team in the East, and should have gotten a point if the reffing wasn't terrible. Also a game where Price was good but not great, as the last goal proved...

I've become a big Price fan, he's really a great goalie, he's among the best in the league but he's probably not even the best in the league, yet apparently he's the only goalie in the league that ever is the best player for his team...
Bruins have about the same team this year than the one of last year.. Its about time the Bruins get some recognizion for being a pretty well balanced, well structured, well coached and pretty tough team to face as much on the road as they are at home.. Put Price or any top 10 goaltender with this team and he will have some pretty ridiculous stats, just take a look at Rask's numbers this year.. They allow very few quality scoring chances per game, they are playing tigh and tough hockey, they are systematic, disciplined and working inside of a system every players buy, what is unfortunately not the case here in MTL, we are looking more like a country club than a real hockey team TBH..

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12-16-2011, 12:59 AM
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I lose faith every week, then it's restored after watching Tim Tebow on Sunday.

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Old
12-16-2011, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Cant believe you really think what you say.. Let the ****ing stats aside one sec and just watch the games, Price has been the only reason why we are still alive Jesus Christ
Maybe you should do that. Price hasn't stolen a single game for the Habs. Yah, he's been good and consistent, no complaints there. I'm not saying he's been bad. He's been pretty good. But he's not the only reason the Habs are alive, not by a long shot.

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Name me 1 defenseman who has played like a real top 4 since the begin of the season? Subban?
Subban has been one of the better first-pairing D-men in the league. Because of a few highly-publicized errors that Price couldn't bail out, and because of his lack of scoring, "sophomore slump" has been the story for him. If you look at his entire body of work this season, though, that sophomore slump story is bullcrap. Subban and Gorges are basically keeping the team together.

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Anyway I cant argue with you anymore if you dont think Price has been a monster in the net this season giving us a chance to win every nights despite a serious lack of structure in front of him...
The oh-so-porous, oh-so-unstructured Habs defense gives up the fifth-fewest shots per game in the entire league. At some point, that inconvenient fact has to be factored into your storyline.

Although the vibe I'm getting here is "you disagree with me therefore you must obviously be wrong". In which case, same to you.

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12-16-2011, 01:03 AM
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The team still leans on Price, but not as much as last season. So far the Habs are 9th in 5 on 5 goals, compare that to 23rd last year. But now that this team are a competent even strength team, the PP sucks, which is why were stalled outside the playoff bubble. What MathMan is saying isn't ridiculous by any means.

As for whether or not taking JM out of the equation would really help, I say it absolutely would. We've got a bunch of guys on this team with almost zero defensive upside (Gionta, Cammy, Gomez) being forced into a defensive system.

That's just my 0.02.

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12-16-2011, 01:11 AM
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That's just the prevailing story. The media say that because that's what they've been trained to say every single year.

That, plus seeing several quality saves every game and not realizing that a league-average goaltending is expected to make such saves every games (otherwise he'd be below league-average). So it looks like Price saves the day several times a game because that's what a typical NHL-quality starter does. And when he doesn't, it's someone else's fault and Price just couldn't save his ass. The difference is in the frequency in which this happens.

Here is the thing that the media won't tell you: Montreal's goaltending has been roughly league-average. Montreal's defense has been very strong. That's probably a good thing, because Price is quite capable of improving on .917 (18th in the league).

Of course, it probably also forces the conclusion that Martin must be doing something right, especially given his battered blueline. Good luck getting many people to admit that though.
Here are a few numbers you should consider:

Most minutes :

1 Carey Price 1,706:02 .917
2 Pekka Rinne 1,581:20 .921
3 Cam Ward 1,579:59 .899
4 Miikka Kipr. 1,546:22 .916
5 Jimmy Howard 1,544:15 .929
6 Craig Anderson 1,543:02 .894
7 Ondrej Pavelec 1,524:19 .905
8 Jonathan Quick 1,518:24 .930
9 Mike Smith 1,494:06 .920
10 Jonas Hiller 1,480:54 .902

Maybe all that Price needs to get his sv% above ''average'' is to not be the most used goalie in the NHL...

Ever think of that ?

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12-16-2011, 01:19 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
Seriously ? Price is the ONLY reason we are even close to being in the playoff hunt......No way you watch the games every night.
it's what happens when one makes the mistake of assuming that interpreting a given set of statistics to formulate a narrative is anymore objective than a narrative based on observation.


sv% is a great starting point to evaluate how often a goalie makes a save, but tells you absolutely nothing about when/where the saves are made... both factors that anyone with even a modicum of understanding of how sports work, knows are crucial in the impact they have on success.

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12-16-2011, 01:24 AM
  #22
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1 regulation loss in December.

A 4-3 loss to a team that has won 7 straight games and is in first place in conference.

One of our goals was disallowed for goalie interference, while on 2 of their goals, they had the same amount of contract (simmonds on price) and more contact (Rinaldo on Price) than Cole had on Bobrovsky.

Still, it was our first regulation loss in the month.

After starting 1-5-2 we are in the mix for a playoff spot.


And people are losing faith?

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12-16-2011, 01:25 AM
  #23
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Maybe all that Price needs to get his sv% above ''average'' is to not be the most used goalie in the NHL...

Ever think of that ?
Maybe. But it's irrelevant to the quesiton of whether the team is dependent on goaltending. (The team's goaltending may be overly dependent on Price, but that's another matter. If so, maybe they should play Budaj more. Budaj hasn't been great but he hasn't embarassed himself either.)

I'm not trying to indict Price, here. I think he's been good. I don't think he's been lights-out all year and I don't think he's stolen a game. He's basically been consistent, no big highs, no big lows, which is a fine thing for a goalie to be.

But the Habs are not a team that are being kept alive by their goalie. They're a very strong defensive club. They've got a thoroughly awesome PK and one of the best 5-on-5 ratios in the league. And they're doing all this while missing key players every single game.

What's been killing them is their crappy PP production... the PP that's just scored in 3 games in a row (not coincidentally since the Kaberle trade).

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12-16-2011, 01:25 AM
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When do the "stats" start to mean nothing? At the end of the day, the main stat is points and where you are in the standings.

Posters can bring up how they are better at five on five, how they dont allow that many shots, etc etc but at the end of the day if it doesn't translate to wins, they mean nothing. This isnt a video game where they input numbers and get a winner.

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12-16-2011, 01:31 AM
  #25
MathMan
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When do the "stats" start to mean nothing? At the end of the day, the main stat is points and where you are in the standings.
Here's another view of the standings situation. The Habs started the season 1-5-2. They've pretty much played at a 100-point clip since.

(And frankly, I think they played better in their 1-5-2 stretch then they are doing now.)

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