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The Management thread 2.0 ( All GM/Coaching discussion here)

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Old
12-16-2011, 03:51 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
was gonna do a wise-ass post, but decided otherwise...

@ op: there's no denying that the habs could have spent more wisely in free agency, but you're operating under a false premise.

only a handful of these guys ever hit FA, off the top of my head without checking, this is the only guys that were acquired in FA: Briere, Richards, Gaborik, Tanguay, Kovalchuk, Selanne.

and of the other guys on your list, some were traded for - and without exception, there's usually a high first round pick coming back for them - and almost every single one of the players you listed were high first round pick.

so the problem is not one of spending and it's not really one of drafting either, it's one of never drafting high enough to be able to pick guys with that kind of natural talent.

the last time they did get the chance, they got price. good enough for your list?
No, he's exactly right, you don't attempt to build the core of your team through UFA's. You tweak and put yourself over the top when needed, we signed a bunch of declining, overpriced players we not only didn't need, but shouldn't have purchased as part of our core, it's no wonder we're a cap spent team without a lot of talent to show for it. We've got a handful of contracts that are terrible, not only are the contracts bad, but their given to players who aren't that good.

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12-16-2011, 04:29 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
No, he's exactly right, you don't attempt to build the core of your team through UFA's. You tweak and put yourself over the top when needed, we signed a bunch of declining, overpriced players we not only didn't need, but shouldn't have purchased as part of our core, it's no wonder we're a cap spent team without a lot of talent to show for it. We've got a handful of contracts that are terrible, not only are the contracts bad, but their given to players who aren't that good.
and yet, I see Briere, Richards, Gaborik, Tanguay, Kovalchuk and Selanne on op's list... good thing he's right dont you think ?


good thing he didnt bother adding the B's with undrafted Tim Thomas and signed UFA Zdeno Chara...

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12-16-2011, 04:54 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and yet, I see Briere, Richards, Gaborik, Tanguay, Kovalchuk and Selanne on op's list... good thing he's right dont you think ?


good thing he didnt bother adding the B's with undrafted Tim Thomas and signed UFA Zdeno Chara...
Good thing you can't follow a conversation, their teams are mostly built from within. I didn't say anything about acquiring free agents when the time is right, we locked ourselves into a bunch of bums, for higher prices and longer terms as our core. What does an undrafted Thomas got to do with anything here? They got lucky, so what, we've got a few undrafted players ourselves, strangely, they're not the problem. The 20+ million spent on nothing is.

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Old
12-16-2011, 05:38 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Good thing you can't follow a conversation, their teams are mostly built from within. I didn't say anything about acquiring free agents when the time is right, we locked ourselves into a bunch of bums, for higher prices and longer terms as our core. What does an undrafted Thomas got to do with anything here? They got lucky, so what, we've got a few undrafted players ourselves, strangely, they're not the problem. The 20+ million spent on nothing is.

that's the case for most teams, including the Habs. Price, Subban, Weber, Diaz, Emelin, Pacc, Leblanc, Eller acquired at a very young age, same for Gorges, Markov, Plekanec, Kostystin, Desharnais... that's more than half the team...


no TT, no Chara, no cup.


Last edited by ECWHSWI: 12-16-2011 at 05:46 AM.
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Old
12-16-2011, 05:59 AM
  #255
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Facts

-There is parity like never before in the NHL
- Successful teams build from the farm, with good drafting and development.
- Successful teams use free agents to plug holes.
- The Habs are competitive due to Jacques Martin's system, like it or not
- Kessels is not so one-dimentional anymore.
- Habs will be a bubble team as long as they'll let their fans dictate whether they rebuild or not.
- Kaberly came in because Markov will probably never return
- Dead wood does not get traded as easily as fans would like to believe.

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Old
12-16-2011, 06:31 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
In a game where said top center plays 10:25 on special teams, and where the team is missing an entire line of top-9 forwards due to injuries? Sure he does.

The point is, if Philly is more disciplined, or the Habs for that matter, we're not having this discussion.

I mean, Pleks played 22 minutes. You can't really use him more than that, you can't really justify cutting into his PP time just to give him more ES time, and the dude is one of the best penalty-killing forwards on Earth.

You could think about giving the Darche line less icetime, but Pleks played 22 minutes and DD played 19 minutes, so you can't really give either of those more time. And taking time away from Darche to play Blunden more, just so Darche has less ES time than Pleks, doesn't seem like a brilliant move.

And the Eller line has become the defensive unit by default, and Darche is on there (purely as a stopgap). They were covering Jagr. So whenever Jagr was out 5-on-5, out they went. And Jagr played a lot, so Eller played a lot. And when Eller played, so did Darche.

Given another option, Martin would've used a better player than Darche as his 8th forward in a heartbeat. But outside of an unproven rookie (who, frankly, should probably be replacing Nokelainen instead), he doesn't have one.

This is unfortunately what happens when you lose an entire line of forwards -- your fourth-liner becomes your third line.
Why would it be so inconcievable to play Plek or DD more? Do they both tap at 22 & 19min?

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Old
12-16-2011, 06:38 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why would it be so inconcievable to play Plek or DD more? Do they both tap at 22 & 19min?
22 minutes is a lot for a forward. Most top forwards play 20-21 minutes.

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Old
12-16-2011, 06:44 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
I'll make a bold prediction: Gomez will score before JM is fired.

Saddle up cause we have lots more frustrating hockey to watch.
Then don't freaking watch.

Some of you are freaking unbelieveable. You play the top team in the conference, basically tie them(either you allow both goals or disallow both) yet the whole team is crap, GM sucks and coach should be fired. And taht was the first game without getting a point in 2+ weeks...

I swear some of you guys are like 13 year old girls on PMS.

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Old
12-16-2011, 06:50 AM
  #259
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Not really related to JM but why they called a change up with 10 sec left in a game when WE have the puck?

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:04 AM
  #260
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22 minutes is a lot for a forward. Most top forwards play 20-21 minutes.
That's when they dont get 10 minutes of PP time. You must of lost it somehwere in your reasoning that, playing on the PP is not really as demanding as playing ES AND they had 2 5-3, I am just saying that standing there for like 5 minutes and passing the puck and missing the net is not very demanding on the players.

With 9 PP, I think our best forwards should have been over 20mins on the ice. Which in this case are not, if you are going to overuse 3 guys on the PP, then they should have over 25 mins on the ice. Still not the case.

Quote:
where the team is missing an entire line of top-9 forwards due to injuries? Sure he does.
What are you blabbering about? We have Gionta out, ok that makes 1? And lets add Moen ( even if he aint one )... Still doesnt make a line I am sorry.

Plus, its not like if Gionta was doing anything before he got injured. Explain me why, LEblanc, an offesnif player, doesnt get mroe ice time than Darche? I am sorry but Leblanc has 1 goal less than Darche with only 9 games played... Says alot.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:08 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by ClasslessGuy View Post
Not really related to JM but why they called a change up with 10 sec left in a game when WE have the puck?
Not the 1st time I see that, I think its been 45sec the players are on the ice time too change. Rebot like

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:23 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by AraGOHABSGO View Post
That's when they dont get 10 minutes of PP time. You must of lost it somehwere in your reasoning that, playing on the PP is not really as demanding as playing ES AND they had 2 5-3, I am just saying that standing there for like 5 minutes and passing the puck and missing the net is not very demanding on the players.

With 9 PP, I think our best forwards should have been over 20mins on the ice. Which in this case are not, if you are going to overuse 3 guys on the PP, then they should have over 25 mins on the ice. Still not the case.



What are you blabbering about? We have Gionta out, ok that makes 1? And lets add Moen ( even if he aint one )... Still doesnt make a line I am sorry.

Plus, its not like if Gionta was doing anything before he got injured. Explain me why, LEblanc, an offesnif player, doesnt get mroe ice time than Darche? I am sorry but Leblanc has 1 goal less than Darche with only 9 games played... Says alot.
People complain about Darche playing too much, well if you add White, Moen Gionta and Gomez I'm sure that would knock him down quite a bit in the pecking order.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:27 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Then don't freaking watch.

Some of you are freaking unbelieveable. You play the top team in the conference, basically tie them(either you allow both goals or disallow both) yet the whole team is crap, GM sucks and coach should be fired. And taht was the first game without getting a point in 2+ weeks...

I swear some of you guys are like 13 year old girls on PMS.
More like 55 and menopausing.

So first regulation loss in 7 games like u mentioned (3-0-3), against a top team in the east (so far), came back from 1 goal, three times, got a pp goal, again. Kaberle got his 8th point in his last 5 games, 4 in 3 with us. Move on to the next game.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:28 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
People complain about Darche playing too much, well if you add White, Moen Gionta and Gomez I'm sure that would knock him down quite a bit in the pecking order.
What do those 3 have to do with poor coaching by martin, Gomez has been out for a few weeks now, Gionta a week and Moen a couple of games. He needs to adapt, every team faces injury problems not just Montreal, see how Laviolette used his stars last night every 2nd shift? See how he kept send Couturier out there despite his 3 penalties. Lebalanc played 4 freaking minutes barely any after his goal what the hell does that have to do with those 3 players missing? It's poor coaching that's what it is and he can't adapt during the game.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:36 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
More like 55 and menopausing.

So first regulation loss in 7 games like u mentioned (3-0-3), against a top team in the east (so far), came back from 1 goal, three times, got a pp goal, again. Kaberle got his 8th point in his last 5 games, 4 in 3 with us. Move on to the next game.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I resent that

Lucky we lost last night, gives all the experts here a chance to vent.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:43 AM
  #266
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Can't wait for this ******* to be fired! And if Gauthier doesn't have the balls to do it, then Molson must step up and clean house of those Ottawa rats while bringing back the pride to a once proud franchise!

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:52 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
Not the 1st time I see that, I think its been 45sec the players are on the ice time too change. Rebot like
yeah... sounded more like ****** it we lost come to the bench guys... (from the players)

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Old
12-16-2011, 08:22 AM
  #268
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Kessel is a unidimensional 60-point player having an especially lucky shooting year. Gionta is a well-rounded 50-point player who's once had an especially lucky shooting year. Gionta's 82-game goal scoring pace these last two years have been 38 and 29 goals, Kessel 35 and 32. And I imagine there's no way the difference in scoring between the two might be impacted by the fact that Kessel spends about an extra minute more on the PP and another 5-on-5... time that Gionta spends killing penalties, something that Kessel does not do?

Kessel is a good player, but maybe it's time we stopped and took stock of what the Habs do have. The narrative surrounding the quality of the Habs' players -- that they have no stars or players of any consequence -- is utter ********. It's always amazing to me how a team can be consistently competitive without featuring a single player who is any good.

It doesn't help that the average fan is completely blinded by two numbers: goal totals, and point totals. Even the most basic of context gets ignored.
Wrong he's a 25 year old just coming into his own after being on a team that even benched him in the playoffs. He's always been a projected superstar and was picked top 5 in his draft year. Take off the homer glasses the guy is a superstar, just because he's only breaking out now doesn't change that.

36 goal in 70 games isn't superstar? That's 40+ pace.

The guy has consistently put up 30+ goals even on Toronto last year when they were horrid.

It's called player development dude. Take off the homer glasses for a second the guy is a superstar. Pretty sure Burke wasn't intending on having a star player for two 1st picks.

There's a reason he's leading the NHL and it is no fluke.

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12-16-2011, 08:26 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Darch View Post
Facts

-There is parity like never before in the NHL
- Successful teams build from the farm, with good drafting and development.
- Successful teams use free agents to plug holes.
- The Habs are competitive due to Jacques Martin's system, like it or not
- Kessels is not so one-dimentional anymore.
- Habs will be a bubble team as long as they'll let their fans dictate whether they rebuild or not.
- Kaberly came in because Markov will probably never return
- Dead wood does not get traded as easily as fans would like to believe.
He was a one dimensional 40 goal scorer when he was young (never reached 40 but pace was 40. Missed 12 games)

He's become a better all around offensive threat now that he's found some consistency with linemates and better ice time. When guys like that start consistently making plays, are just turned 25 and always been a 30-40g scoring threat each year... they are at the bare minimum budding superstars.

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Old
12-16-2011, 08:29 AM
  #270
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Kessel is about as much a superstar as one-time 48-goal scorer Gionta is, which is not at all. Of course, the term "superstar" is very ill-defined except for the part where it carefully excludes any Hab forward.

Do you have any idea how many 40-goal scorers there are in the league?

Do you have any idea how many there were on the last two Cup winners? What about 30-goal scorers?
Just when I think you're getting somewhere you go and throw all your credibility away by posting trash like this.

Your opinion is becoming more and more difficult to respect, seriously, wake up, your nap is over.

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12-16-2011, 08:39 AM
  #271
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Would Patrick Roy trust Pacioretty, Eller and Leblanc more?

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Old
12-16-2011, 08:50 AM
  #272
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Carthago delenda est.

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Old
12-16-2011, 09:12 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why would it be so inconcievable to play Plek or DD more? Do they both tap at 22 & 19min?
Two reasons:

1- Yeah, they're both pretty tapped out at that point, especially Pleks at 22. That's a lot of icetime for a forward.

2- Perhaps more importantly: matchups. Deciding who goes on the ice isn't just about divvying up icetime, it's also very much about who's on the ice on the other side, especially at home. Martin is very keen on line matching, unlike say Carbo who often just rolled whatever (and often built lines that couldn't match up well to anyone).

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12-16-2011, 09:15 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Kessel is a unidimensional 60-point player having an especially lucky shooting year. Gionta is a well-rounded 50-point player who's once had an especially lucky shooting year. Gionta's 82-game goal scoring pace these last two years have been 38 and 29 goals, Kessel 35 and 32. And I imagine there's no way the difference in scoring between the two might be impacted by the fact that Kessel spends about an extra minute more on the PP and another 5-on-5... time that Gionta spends killing penalties, something that Kessel does not do?
guy are you crazy? how many leaf games did you watch this year?

if you believe kessel is one- dimensional i don't know what to say

he's 24 for god's sake.. young players can improve, and he certinly has over the last year

you are comparing kessel's stats when he was 22, 23? wow

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Old
12-16-2011, 09:17 AM
  #275
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Apparently both Gauthier and Molson are baffled as to why Leblanc was benched after his goal.

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