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Rumor: Samsonov for Handzus

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Old
12-05-2005, 10:06 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claypool
Making an already wimpy Flyers team even wimpier
Takes a lot of balls coming from a Pens fan.

BTW, what are the odds no one lays a finger on Hatcher next time we play, even though he continues to pester and rough up Crosby?

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12-05-2005, 10:17 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Slitty
Why bag so much on poor Samsonov? Just because he is Russian?


Sure, it dosen't make sense for Boston to trade a winger for a center right now, and Sammy is UFA at the end of the season, but C'MON...

Samsonov is a skilled forward who consistantly cranks out a 25-30 goal and 70ish point season. One of the most dangerous down low along the boards in the NHL, with an offensive upside that Handzus just does not have. Even more than that, Samsonov has been pretty damn consistant throughtout his career, and has 25 points in 28 games thus far.

Handzus, on the other hand, is a 40 point player who can't score much at all. In fact, he only has 6 goals this year, and is close to Samsonov in term of overal production simply because he is on the Flyers and his linemates have been doing well.


Seriously, even with the UFA, the Flyers are championship potential, and would be lucky to get Samsonov for Handzus, as Samsonov would be a much better fit. Alas, tis but a rumour and will not happen. Someone saw Samsonov scratched and jumped to conclusions.
Samsonov contract is up. Very good scorer, great speed and he will benefit more with new rules but Flyers do not need to trade for UFA and injury prone players, simply do not want them, we have enough of injuries.

Handzus scores 20 goals per season and he is 55 point man, solid all around player with scoring touch, penalty killing, and PP, good on face offs, good speed for a big man, throws his body around 50% of a time specially this season, not soft as most of you think, 2M per year. Handzus plays well with anyone, rookies, AHL players, scorers or non scorers, he plays wing or center. As some one mentioned Handzus line mates are Sim and Richards for most of the season. You name it and Handzus has it. I am sure he will score more then 60 points this seasin providing Flyers with his solid 2 way defensive game.
I do not know if Flyers would be lucky to get Samsonov it depends on needs while we could use LW we are very thin at center right now. So I'd say no to this offer. If Bosotn will not make playoffs we can get Samsonov for less.

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12-05-2005, 10:31 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
I'd want more than Luongo and Florida's first round pick for Gagne. If Florida is looking for a deal with Gagne, I'd throw in Esche and Handzus and in return from Florida, I'd want Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester AND Florida's first round pick.
Florida would never do this deal. Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester are all high 1st round picks, all of them, plus on a top of that you want Florida's 1st round in 2006 and all that for Gagne??? Come on... you are a strange guy

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12-05-2005, 11:55 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUS
Florida would never do this deal. Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester are all high 1st round picks, all of them, plus on a top of that you want Florida's 1st round in 2006 and all that for Gagne??? Come on... you are a strange guy
Hey, if you want high end talent, you have to pay for it. What have Luongo, Horton, Weiss and Bouwmeester all done since coming into the league? Nothing. They haven't made the playoffs, they haven't made any kind of impact so to speak, and everyone has continued to talk about the "potential" of all those guys. Well, potential only gets you so far. You're talking about four "potentially" great players for three players who have already proven themselves. You're talking about Handzus, one of the best two players in the game. You're talking about Gagne, an elite left winger and you're talking about Esche, a goalie who has proven he is more than capable of carrying a team.

Facts of Matter here: Fact - Luongo has never carried a team to the playoffs. How he'll play in the playoffs is a big question; Fact - other than the hot start to begin the year, Luongo has looked very ordinary in Florida. For a guy who is supposed to be the team's franchise player, he hasn't played like one; Fact - Bouwmeester has not progressed at all in his game. If anything, he's digressed. Why everyone talks about Bouwmeester being an elite defender because he can skate is beyond me. He has no mean streak, no offensive game, and has gotten by on reputation alone. It's time for Jay to put up or shut up; Fact - Horton is also in the midst of digressing. He had an ok rookie year, but he's been injury prone. You're talking about a potentially dominant power forward, but he's got shoulder problems and those can be VERY difficult to overcome; Fact - Weiss is nothing more than a bit part. This was supposed to be a guy who was supposed to be the 2nd coming of Yzerman since his draft year. His play has been spotty at best. Maybe, just maybe he needs to get out of Florida to get his career on track. Or maybe he's a bust.

Fact - Gagne is playoff proven and is more than capable of leading a team to greatness. For all the talk of Forsberg and his impact on the Flyers, let's not forget that Simon has had a great impact as well. He's proved he can play any role assigned to him and he's also a great team guy. Those qualities are tough to come by; Fact - Handzus has gotten better every year he's been in Philadelphia. Look at his ice time, look at his points, look at his game. The man is gamer. For all this talk about his defensive game, he has a very under rated offensive game because nobody expects it from him. I'm willing to bet that if you give him a role like a 2nd or even 1st line center and give him good linemates, there's no reason to believe he can't be a 70+ point guy in the league; Fact - Esche has been in the playoffs and he's playoff proven. He'll always have that over Luongo.

So, call me strange, call me what ever you want, but there are facts present that if Florida wants to do a deal with Philadelphia, a deal of Luongo straight up for Gagne is ludicrous at best. Gagne is the better player and he's proven it time and time and time again. So no, my deal isn't far off when you consider things. You may look at potential all you want RUS, but I look at the bottom line. Bottom line is that all the Flyers players have delivered. Can't say that about the Florida players, can we?

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12-05-2005, 12:47 PM
  #55
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I thought you were being sarcastic about Horton, Weiss, JBo, a high first rounder, and Luongo for Gagne. Now that I see you were being serious

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12-05-2005, 01:20 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
I thought you were being sarcastic about Horton, Weiss, JBo, a high first rounder, and Luongo for Gagne. Now that I see you were being serious
Why are you missing the other two components of the deal. It's not just the five for Gagne, but for Gagne, Handzus and Esche. Ok, throw in Downie and the Flyers first round pick then. That's more than legit for the that kind of deal to go down.

Florida rebuilds big time with Gagne on the top line on the left side with Jokinen, they have solidified the 2nd line with Handzus who can center Roberts and Anthony Stewart, they get a top agitator in Downie and they don't lose out on a first round pick. As well, they have Esche between the pipes.

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12-05-2005, 01:24 PM
  #57
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BobbyClarkeFan16 = Simon Gagne?

I've always been a fan of Gagne, but I would expect Philly would have to add something to Gagne to scoop up Luongo.

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12-05-2005, 01:31 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashnaidoo
BobbyClarkeFan16 = Simon Gagne?
No, but a big Gagne fan. All this talk about Luongo for Gagne is a joke. Premier wingers who are game breakers and team leaders just don't grow on trees and I find it funny that most people on here seem to think that in order to Luongo, the Flyers would need to add to Gagne. I think if Florida wanted Gagne, they would need more than just Luongo to get him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashnaidoo
I've always been a fan of Gagne, but I would expect Philly would have to add something to Gagne to scoop up Luongo.
What I like is that no one read my complete post. It wasn't just Gagne in the deal. I included Esche and Handzus as well. Everyone seems to fail to remember that part too.

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12-05-2005, 01:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Hey, if you want high end talent, you have to pay for it. What have Luongo, Horton, Weiss and Bouwmeester all done since coming into the league? Nothing. They haven't made the playoffs, they haven't made any kind of impact so to speak, and everyone has continued to talk about the "potential" of all those guys. Well, potential only gets you so far. You're talking about four "potentially" great players for three players who have already proven themselves. You're talking about Handzus, one of the best two players in the game. You're talking about Gagne, an elite left winger and you're talking about Esche, a goalie who has proven he is more than capable of carrying a team.

Facts of Matter here: Fact - Luongo has never carried a team to the playoffs. How he'll play in the playoffs is a big question; Fact - other than the hot start to begin the year, Luongo has looked very ordinary in Florida. For a guy who is supposed to be the team's franchise player, he hasn't played like one; Fact - Bouwmeester has not progressed at all in his game. If anything, he's digressed. Why everyone talks about Bouwmeester being an elite defender because he can skate is beyond me. He has no mean streak, no offensive game, and has gotten by on reputation alone. It's time for Jay to put up or shut up; Fact - Horton is also in the midst of digressing. He had an ok rookie year, but he's been injury prone. You're talking about a potentially dominant power forward, but he's got shoulder problems and those can be VERY difficult to overcome; Fact - Weiss is nothing more than a bit part. This was supposed to be a guy who was supposed to be the 2nd coming of Yzerman since his draft year. His play has been spotty at best. Maybe, just maybe he needs to get out of Florida to get his career on track. Or maybe he's a bust.

Fact - Gagne is playoff proven and is more than capable of leading a team to greatness. For all the talk of Forsberg and his impact on the Flyers, let's not forget that Simon has had a great impact as well. He's proved he can play any role assigned to him and he's also a great team guy. Those qualities are tough to come by; Fact - Handzus has gotten better every year he's been in Philadelphia. Look at his ice time, look at his points, look at his game. The man is gamer. For all this talk about his defensive game, he has a very under rated offensive game because nobody expects it from him. I'm willing to bet that if you give him a role like a 2nd or even 1st line center and give him good linemates, there's no reason to believe he can't be a 70+ point guy in the league; Fact - Esche has been in the playoffs and he's playoff proven. He'll always have that over Luongo.

So, call me strange, call me what ever you want, but there are facts present that if Florida wants to do a deal with Philadelphia, a deal of Luongo straight up for Gagne is ludicrous at best. Gagne is the better player and he's proven it time and time and time again. So no, my deal isn't far off when you consider things. You may look at potential all you want RUS, but I look at the bottom line. Bottom line is that all the Flyers players have delivered. Can't say that about the Florida players, can we?
Where did Esche lead Flyers? No where.. Relax and wait another 5 years and you will get the same result with this guy.
Luongo is top 5 goalies in the league right now. Some people would put him top 3. So, you want five 1st rounders and all of them were drafted somewhere between 1st over all and 7th overall for Gagne and Hadnzus and Luongo is being one of them?
Gagne playoff record is decent (.5 point per game) and he may produce even more this year however still not enough to give up that much to get him. Handzus is decent two way players making 2M a year but so what?
I mean maybe Lindros deal can get close (close as far as madness) to the deal you are offering right now and back then no one had 39 million cap. Not only you are strange you are funny 2.

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12-05-2005, 02:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
No, but a big Gagne fan. All this talk about Luongo for Gagne is a joke. Premier wingers who are game breakers and team leaders just don't grow on trees and I find it funny that most people on here seem to think that in order to Luongo, the Flyers would need to add to Gagne. I think if Florida wanted Gagne, they would need more than just Luongo to get him.

What I like is that no one read my complete post. It wasn't just Gagne in the deal. I included Esche and Handzus as well. Everyone seems to fail to remember that part too.
Gagne is not a game breaker, at least not yet. Mogilny, Bure, Jagr, Hull these guys are game breakers and Gagne is not,
Gagne is better player then Alex Tanguay right now but not by huge margin because one of them is playing with Forsberg

Primier wingers do not grow on trees, well premier goalies are tougher to find then primier wingers. Not to downgread Gagnes value which is very high specially this season but he didn't win anything except when played on international level and it's much tougher to get Brodures job.
In the end I'd trade Gagne and Handzus for 3 of those players Luongo included just to get Floridas 2006 1st round pick which looks like going to be top 5.

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12-05-2005, 02:08 PM
  #61
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If I were MOC, I'd jump all over a Handzus-Samsonov trade, and it has everything to do with finances. Handzus for one year at $2.2M is a bargain. Sammy's going to be getting more than that, and it's highly unlikely he'll sign a one-year contract (suggested to compare with what Handzus's contract will be, in essence, come this summer).

The major difference between Handzus and Samsonov is that only one of them will be unrestricted this summer. I think Samsonov is a better offensive talent, and looking at the Flyers minus Forsberg, it couldn't hurt them. However, Handzus will still have value this summer whereas Samsonov will have no value to the Flyers or Bruins unless they sign him. If Primeau's injuries are such that if he retires, then the Flyers save his cap hit, resign Johnsson, Gagne, and Pitkanen, and can keep Handzus. If Primeau returns, they can trade Handzus at the draft along with some of their big stockpile of early-round picks and move up to get a really good player. Make no mistake: they have to do something because they will have more money owed than they will money coming off the books. It's something they need to resolve by the beginning of the 2006-07 season. If they trade Handzus for Samsonov now, they gain financial flexiblity next summer, but they could get that by trading Handzus at the draft - which would also yield something of future value in return.

This is all about value.

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12-05-2005, 02:15 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUS
In the end I'd trade Gagne and Handzus for 3 of those players Luongo included just to get Floridas 2006 1st round pick which looks like going to be top 5.
In other words, you'd trade for a top-flight goaltender that's supposed to guarantee success while taking two of the most important forwards off the team. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

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12-05-2005, 02:34 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by stanley
In other words, you'd trade for a top-flight goaltender that's supposed to guarantee success while taking two of the most important forwards off the team. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.
In other words.. I'd trade Gagne and Handzus our 1st round pick 2006 during off season for Luongo, (Horton or Bouwmeester) and 2006 1st rounder (as my comrad BobbyClarkeFan16 suggested he just wants 2-3 high drafted players plus 2006 1st rounder from Florida and it won't happen) but I think Florida would say no to it. I'd do it if I had a chance.

Then show Esche the door, sign Brashear for less lets say 500K, try to sign Eric Desjerdein for less 1.5M trim roster a little bit and of cours explain Luongo that 2-3 good years out of him and he will get his money. Behind Flyers D, Luongo would be the king. Yes we are giving up a lot but we gain something we didn't have for over 10 years. Forsberg will make Horton look like Brett Hull, just look what Knuble is doing.....

For the first time in yeaaaaaaaaars Flyers would roll from goaltending out to defense and forwards Carter, Richards, Umberger (if pans out), Downie (if pans out), veteran forwards Kapanen, Forsberg, Knuble, Stevenson maybe Primeau Floridas 1st round in 2006 who will be ready to play.


Last edited by greatwhite101: 12-05-2005 at 03:19 PM.
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12-05-2005, 03:02 PM
  #64
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I dont think Luongo will be traded this year, but if he does, id imagine Philly would be pretty interested and be able to offer the most attractive package
The biggest problem here, the Flyers can't spend their usual money and just lure more talent from other teams via free agency. By trading for Luongo they may get a really good goalie, but the team becomes just as crappy as Florida because you've traded away half of the talent on your team. Luongo may be good, but is he winning anything in Florida? No. By bringing him in via trade, the same problems will follow with him because now no one is scoring goals - especially this Gagne for Luongo deal. It's really stupid to consider a deal like this. Florida has a great goalie, but they don't have the players up front to win games for him. If Luongo comes here at the cost of Gagne, the same problems will occur. So I believe that a trade that brings Roberto Luongo here actually makes Philadelphia worse off.

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12-05-2005, 03:07 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Why are you missing the other two components of the deal. It's not just the five for Gagne, but for Gagne, Handzus and Esche. Ok, throw in Downie and the Flyers first round pick then. That's more than legit for the that kind of deal to go down.

Florida rebuilds big time with Gagne on the top line on the left side with Jokinen, they have solidified the 2nd line with Handzus who can center Roberts and Anthony Stewart, they get a top agitator in Downie and they don't lose out on a first round pick. As well, they have Esche between the pipes.

Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester and a 1st in 06 for gags a decent 2 way player and a poo goalie

and every one was complaining about the leaf trades

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12-05-2005, 03:09 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
It's not just the five for Gagne, but for Gagne, Handzus and Esche. Ok, throw in Downie and the Flyers first round pick then. That's more than legit for the that kind of deal to go down.
Wouldn't it just be easier to have the teams swap sweaters?

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12-05-2005, 03:22 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashnaidoo
BobbyClarkeFan16 = Simon Gagne?

I've always been a fan of Gagne, but I would expect Philly would have to add something to Gagne to scoop up Luongo.
Luongo is a pending UFA, he would have to sign an extension before they Flyers would even think about giving up Gagne, let alone anything else.

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12-05-2005, 03:24 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Steve L
Luongo is a pending UFA, he would have to sign an extension before they Flyers would even think about giving up Gagne, let alone anything else.
Luongo is in the same situation as Gagne, both have one more year before they become an UFA.

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12-05-2005, 06:32 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardi

Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester and a 1st in 06 for gags a decent 2 way player and a poo goalie

and every one was complaining about the leaf trades
Of course they complain. If this was a Leaf proposal it would look something like:

Luongo, Weiss, Bouwmeester, Horton, a 1st round pick

for

Aki Berg, Belak and Antropov.

Gagne (the league's leading goal scorer, mind you), Handzus (a proven solid two-way centre who can play any type of game), Esche (has gone way deeper in the playoffs than Luongo could ever dream of, one game from the cup finals), Downie (this year's first round pick, who has just as much, if not more promise than any of Weiss, Horton, Bouwmeester could have at this point) and the Flyers' first round pick isn't that far off when you actually look at the facts and stop putting Luongo on this gigantic pedestal despite never really proving anything except he sees a lot of rubber.

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12-05-2005, 06:48 PM
  #70
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anyway enough about luongo. this thread is for zeus.

i really doubt at this point that zeus will be traded for samsonov. our PK is horrible right now and without zeus it would be even worse. only way id see handzeus being dealt would be if it was involved in a bigger trade. not him for samson ov

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12-05-2005, 06:50 PM
  #71
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put a good defense core infront of luongo and you got a top 2 goalie in the world

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12-05-2005, 06:54 PM
  #72
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[QUOTE=BobbyClarkeFan16]I'd want more than Luongo and Florida's first round pick for Gagne. If Florida is looking for a deal with Gagne, I'd throw in Esche and Handzus and in return from Florida, I'd want Luongo, Horton, Weiss, Bouwmeester AND Florida's first round pick.
QUOTE]

Why don't we just fold our team and give you all our players? :

Maybe Luongo and Weiss, but Horton and Bouwmeester plus Luongo is insane!

Luongo has 1 more year as an RFA, he'll be a UFA after next season. I can only imagine how he'd play with a DEFENSE in front of him instead of what we've had the past 4 years. For the 2nd season in a row he's leading the league in saves.

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12-05-2005, 08:00 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Luongo is in the same situation as Gagne, both have one more year before they become an UFA.
Do try trade, try and sign Luongo to an extension and get Gagne back in 18 months time, sorted.

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12-08-2005, 07:46 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by trippyime
The biggest problem here, the Flyers can't spend their usual money and just lure more talent from other teams via free agency. By trading for Luongo they may get a really good goalie, but the team becomes just as crappy as Florida because you've traded away half of the talent on your team. Luongo may be good, but is he winning anything in Florida? No. By bringing him in via trade, the same problems will follow with him because now no one is scoring goals - especially this Gagne for Luongo deal. It's really stupid to consider a deal like this. Florida has a great goalie, but they don't have the players up front to win games for him. If Luongo comes here at the cost of Gagne, the same problems will occur. So I believe that a trade that brings Roberto Luongo here actually makes Philadelphia worse off.
I like gagne alot, but have you philly fans noticed who gagne is playing with?? Forsberg is definately padding simons sats, and therefore I think philly fans are overrating him a bit.

Suppose you take gagne out of the lineup, you still have plenty of guys to score. To say no one will score with gagne gone is ludacris. Take Luongo out of the florida net and HUGE probelms will result.

Put yourself in Floridas shoes... Would you trade your pride and joy, an absolute superstar to us, to Philly and not get gagne at a minimum?? Yea, thats right, not only that, you would want more. You know Philly have a tonne of assests and a shaky (do you seriosuly trust Esche?) goalie so you would want to blled them dry. At the least, we need a goalie coming back and another forward would be nice too.

Before jumping to rediculas trade combos, please, just put yourself in Floridas shoes

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12-08-2005, 07:59 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakethesnake
I like gagne alot, but have you philly fans noticed who gagne is playing with?? Forsberg is definately padding simons sats, and therefore I think philly fans are overrating him a bit.

Suppose you take gagne out of the lineup, you still have plenty of guys to score. To say no one will score with gagne gone is ludacris. Take Luongo out of the florida net and HUGE probelms will result.

Florida has HUGE problems with Luongo in net.

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