HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Mr. Snider Picks Up The Phone, "hey Pauly Get Me Suter Or Weber Without Giving Up.. "

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-17-2011, 10:55 AM
  #76
whskybarJM
Registered User
 
whskybarJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: ca
Country: United States
Posts: 920
vCash: 500
im not saying they should go after anything at the moment. Of course My wish is a young drafted stud who can anchor our number one spot for the rest of his career.

I was more looking at the flyers in the eyes of, "wow I really dont want to give anyone up."

you would have to see James, Sean, brayden, or matt. some combo with jakub heading the other way. With only Briere and jagr in the age of a future replacement they are set.

this team has done a fantastic job to go for a major cup run. Just this Defense going forward. kimmo is by far my favorite, meszaros was an extremely important pick up, coburn just wont take over the #1 guy, carle I love/hate (I think they will resign him), and the rookies we will have to see.

I am glad we got sean but I really really wanted them to move up for larsson. this up coming draft will be very very important.


I guess my answer in the end would be there is no one I want to give up Mr. Snider.


Last edited by whskybarJM: 12-17-2011 at 11:07 AM.
whskybarJM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:02 AM
  #77
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
There is nobody aside from Giroux who I wouldn't give up to get Shea Weber. Whatever it takes, you acquire him. Period.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:28 AM
  #78
YuioIklo
Registered User
 
YuioIklo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec
Country: Martinique
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Wait. So you would honestly rather trade: Schenn, JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, Mez, Coburn, Bob, etc.... than Matt Read?

He's a nice player. But this hype is getting a little out of hand...
Well, like someone said after me, his cap hit counts. Obviously, Schenn and JVR are better players, but to acquire Weber or Suter, you definitely have to give up one of them.

The fact about Read is that his trade value would be way under what he's worth imo, and I would try not to put him in a package deal. And, even if he's in his prime in terms of age, he's not at his best yet, since it's his first year in the NHL. The guy will learn a lot and in 3-4 years, he could very well be an incredible player. He's a lock for our top 6.

YuioIklo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:54 AM
  #79
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,141
vCash: 50
Provided we can sign him long term, who on earth wouldn't sacrifice Schenn/JVR/Couts for Weber?

1865 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:56 AM
  #80
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,128
vCash: 300
I wouldn't sacrifice Couturier

King Forsberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 12:49 PM
  #81
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,482
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
Listen, count the number of teams over the last 25 years who have wona Cup without having at least one superstar DMan in their lineup. I can only think of a few, perhaps TB and Carolina.... Even the Bruins last year were a rarity cuz they had only one bona fide DMan superstar Chara (Kaberle underperformed, Sedidenberg is no superstar, and who the heck is Johny Boychuk)...

Yeah, to have a good shot at a Cup you need at least two superstar Dmen. At the moment we have one, who is old and perhaps a year away from retirement.

Few teams win Cups with a whole bunch of 'good Dmen'.. they win with a pair iof superstars, another pair of good Dmen of the same caliber as Coburn and Mesz, and another bottom pairing who hardly play any minutes at all.

That's the formula on defense folks. Two superstars, two good Dmen, and two nobodies.

Right now we have one elderly superstar (Timo) and three good Dmen (Coburn, Mesz, and possibly Carle). Shortly we nay be down to zero superstars, plus the latter three mentionned.

Wrong formula, guys.
10/11 Bruins: Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk, Ference, Kaberle, McQuaid
08/09 Penguins: Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, Letang, Eaton
06/07 Hurricanes: Hedican, Ward, Commodore, Kaberle, Wallin, Wesley
04/05 Lightning: Kubina, Sydor, Boyle, Sarich, Pratt, Lukowich

4 of the last 7 haven't followed your formula for winning. 50% of the Cup winners since the salary cap has been instituted don't have 2 superstars.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 03:56 PM
  #82
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
10/11 Bruins: Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk, Ference, Kaberle, McQuaid
08/09 Penguins: Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, Letang, Eaton
06/07 Hurricanes: Hedican, Ward, Commodore, Kaberle, Wallin, Wesley
04/05 Lightning: Kubina, Sydor, Boyle, Sarich, Pratt, Lukowich

4 of the last 7 haven't followed your formula for winning. 50% of the Cup winners since the salary cap has been instituted don't have 2 superstars.
Yeah, if anything going back the past 25 years, it looks like having a deep defense becomes more important. Gone are the days when you could have your top guys logging 30 minutes each and leave scrap minutes for the bottom pair.

Of course, there is no real formula as to how you win a cup. One year, it's all about the goalie. The year after, the goalie has more or less tried to give the cup away but has been bailed out by the rest of the team.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 06:06 PM
  #83
Viller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
There is nobody aside from Giroux who I wouldn't give up to get Shea Weber. Whatever it takes, you acquire him. Period.
Same here. Schenn + 1st pick or Carle, schenn and 1st pick.... Whatever, Id do it.

If you can replace Pronger with Pronger junior(at 24!), you do whatever it takes to make it happen. I think people dont realise how ****ing good Weber is, and good is under selling the guy big time.

Viller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 06:33 PM
  #84
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,232
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
How many young Norris front runners get traded for anything less than ridiculous returns when they still have another RFA year.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 07:52 PM
  #85
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
How many young Norris front runners get traded for anything less than ridiculous returns when they still have another RFA year.
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.

JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

for

Weber
Halischuck

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 08:07 PM
  #86
cheesesteak
Registered User
 
cheesesteak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,015
vCash: 500
On NHL network they said Suter and Weber wouldn't be traded until the deadline, and they won't be traded if Nashville is in the playoffs.

cheesesteak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:04 PM
  #87
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
On NHL network they said Suter and Weber wouldn't be traded until the deadline, and they won't be traded if Nashville is in the playoffs.
well if they're movable if NSH isn't in the playoffs, does that technically mean that NSH still needs NHL ready players for this trade to work? Especially if it's that late into the season...I'd say their value drops as upcoming U/RFAs.

Ultimately it's up to them, but if they're gonna wait until then, we might be able to get away with a better trade for us. Guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 11:58 PM
  #88
Coppy
Good Luck Richie!
 
Coppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
Listen, count the number of teams over the last 25 years who have wona Cup without having at least one superstar DMan in their lineup. I can only think of a few, perhaps TB and Carolina.... Even the Bruins last year were a rarity cuz they had only one bona fide DMan superstar Chara (Kaberle underperformed, Sedidenberg is no superstar, and who the heck is Johny Boychuk)...

Yeah, to have a good shot at a Cup you need at least two superstar Dmen. At the moment we have one, who is old and perhaps a year away from retirement.

Few teams win Cups with a whole bunch of 'good Dmen'.. they win with a pair iof superstars, another pair of good Dmen of the same caliber as Coburn and Mesz, and another bottom pairing who hardly play any minutes at all.

That's the formula on defense folks. Two superstars, two good Dmen, and two nobodies.

Right now we have one elderly superstar (Timo) and three good Dmen (Coburn, Mesz, and possibly Carle). Shortly we nay be down to zero superstars, plus the latter three mentionned.

Wrong formula, guys.
I hate when people trot out the "heres the formula for winning a championship" thing, like winning championship in any sport is as easy as solving math problem. There are tons of different ways to put together a team capable of winning a cup.

Remember 2 years ago when it was Flyers (Leighton) Hawks (Niemi) in the finals, and people were saying "in the new nhl, you don't need good goalies to win. Better to spend money on depth. Thats the way to win a cup now."

Remember last year, when it was Bruins (Thomas) Nucks (Luongo) and people said "see you NEED to have a good goalie to win a cup."

BTW, you must have a pretty loose definition of "superstar" because in the cup era, I'm struggling to see any team other than the 2007 Ducks that had 2 superstar defenseman. Detroit had 1, the Hawks had 1, the Bruins had 1, the Pens and the Canes didn't have any. Soo, a lot of of these cup winners seem to be defying this magical formula.

Coppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 12:24 AM
  #89
mercury
Registered User
 
mercury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Philly/SoCal
Country: United States
Posts: 11,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.

JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

for

Weber
Halischuck

Too much.

mercury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 01:03 AM
  #90
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.

JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

for

Weber
Halischuck
No.

Dear god, no.

Way too much.

Not worth it.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 01:16 AM
  #91
Ryker
Registered User
 
Ryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 2,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.

JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

for

Weber
Halischuck
I didn't even see JVR at first, and was already "**** no".

Ryker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 01:37 AM
  #92
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
No.

Dear god, no.

Way too much.

Not worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
I didn't even see JVR at first, and was already "**** no".
The fact that all three of you think it's too much means the value is probably close to fair. Face it, Shea Weber is the best defenseman in the entire league, still only 26, logs 26+ minutes per game, and is a RFA after the season (not a UFA, which drives up the price even more). He's a FRANCHISE defenseman, and that's not easy to find. You gotta give to get, and, honestly, if I'm Homer and Poile is satisfied with an offer of JVR, Schenn/Couturier (preferably Schenn, of course), Carle/Meszaros, a 2012 1st round pick, and a 2013 second round pick, I'm not only accepting the deal without so much as a second thought, but I'm also laughing all the way to the bank.

I don't think JVR is going to develop into the force we're all hoping he can be (I just don't see enough nastiness or assertiveness in his game on a consistent basis, nor do I see the elite level puck skills that he possessed at lower levels), and Schenn/Couturier, for all their promise, are still just prospects. Naturally, if neither Carle or Meszaros had to be included, that'd be ideal... but I'm sure Nashville will want a top-4 defenseman back in the deal (and seeing as how Carle's slated to be a UFA, Poile would probably ask for Mez). No matter what, a first round pick is going to be involved, and there's the possibility that we have two second round picks in 2012 or 2013 (one coming from Florida via the Versteeg trade), so one of them is expendable.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:03 AM
  #93
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
The fact that all three of you think it's too much means the value is probably close to fair. Face it, Shea Weber is the best defenseman in the entire league, still only 26, logs 26+ minutes per game, and is a RFA after the season (not a UFA, which drives up the price even more). He's a FRANCHISE defenseman, and that's not easy to find. You gotta give to get, and, honestly, if I'm Homer and Poile is satisfied with an offer of JVR, Schenn/Couturier (preferably Schenn, of course), Carle/Meszaros, a 2012 1st round pick, and a 2013 second round pick, I'm not only accepting the deal without so much as a second thought, but I'm also laughing all the way to the bank.

I don't think JVR is going to develop into the force we're all hoping he can be (I just don't see enough nastiness or assertiveness in his game on a consistent basis, nor do I see the elite level puck skills that he possessed at lower levels), and Schenn/Couturier, for all their promise, are still just prospects. Naturally, if neither Carle or Meszaros had to be included, that'd be ideal... but I'm sure Nashville will want a top-4 defenseman back in the deal (and seeing as how Carle's slated to be a UFA, Poile would probably ask for Mez). No matter what, a first round pick is going to be involved, and there's the possibility that we have two second round picks in 2012 or 2013 (one coming from Florida via the Versteeg trade), so one of them is expendable.
Why trade all that for him when you can get him for 2 1sts a 2nd and a 3rd in the summer?

Or when you can get Ryan Suter for free?

It's a ridiculous overpayment and there's no chance Homer makes that deal.

Shea Weber is great. But he isn't worth Richards + Carter, and that's what you're asking us to give up. Value equivalent to those 2... for an elite defenseman that is only your guaranteed property for this year and next... and a guy who is looking to set the record for biggest contract ever given to a defenseman.

No thanks.

It's not worth it.

I don't want to kill my forward depth for a luxury #1 defenseman.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:51 AM
  #94
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Lol at saying the value was fair because we all dis-agreed with it. That is very sound logic.

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 08:11 AM
  #95
JoeFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Why trade all that for him when you can get him for 2 1sts a 2nd and a 3rd in the summer?

Or when you can get Ryan Suter for free?

It's a ridiculous overpayment and there's no chance Homer makes that deal.

Shea Weber is great. But he isn't worth Richards + Carter, and that's what you're asking us to give up. Value equivalent to those 2... for an elite defenseman that is only your guaranteed property for this year and next... and a guy who is looking to set the record for biggest contract ever given to a defenseman.

No thanks.

It's not worth it.

I don't want to kill my forward depth for a luxury #1 defenseman.
Personally I'd make that move.

JVR, Schenn, Mesz and at least a 1st for an elite D, considering Prongers situation is looking bad and Timonen is UFA after next season I'd make it. Might be an overpayment but it starts solving some problems down the road. We wouldn't trade for Weber without knowing he would sign a deal so I don't see that as a risk.

Hypothetically:

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) - Claude Giroux ($3.750m) - Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) - Daniel Briere ($6.500m) - Jakub Voracek ($2.250m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) - Sean Couturier ($1.375m) - Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) - Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) - Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Matt Carle ($4.500m) - Shea Weber ($7.500m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) - Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) - Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,228,373; BONUSES: $1,300,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $71,627

You still need one more forward but there are options, get rid of Bob for a cheap backup? Save $1m... Dump Shelly gives you another $1.1m to play with

Right now Schenn has not been needed, and Simmonds is only a little worse than JVR with worse support... Losing Mesz would probably be necessary so resign Carle... And all thatís Pronger plays next year. If not it becomes easier. Then the year after you free up another $6.333m of cap... Seems to make sense to me long term.

JoeFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 08:22 AM
  #96
funghoul
retardo montalbon
 
funghoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upper drugs
Country: United States
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
Yea, but your leaving out couterier, carle, and a 2nd round pick. and your shortchanging us halischuck. how dare you

funghoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 08:37 AM
  #97
JoeFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
Yea, but your leaving out couterier, carle, and a 2nd round pick. and your shortchanging us halischuck. how dare you
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

I took that to mean Schenn or Couturier and Carle or Meszaros, I wouldn't trade away 5 players for 1 and no one would take 5 for 1, the cap they would take would be massive... About $18 if Carle resigned... TBH I didn't even know who Halischuk was... I don't consider that part vital

JoeFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 10:30 AM
  #98
Ryker
Registered User
 
Ryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 2,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
The fact that all three of you think it's too much means the value is probably close to fair.
What the...?

Ryker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:29 PM
  #99
funghoul
retardo montalbon
 
funghoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upper drugs
Country: United States
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
This whole thread is "what the?" People act like the NHL is a wasteland of goodies for us to pick and choose from like vultures because we're a superior team. Nashville aint givin up the goods that easy. Those 3 are all the got. Besides with all this uncertainty (discussed at vomitess levels on this forum) about these concussions we could go and give up key members of what is an insanely promising and potent roster for players we might not need. If Pronger comes back by playoffs and we gave up some two way depth up front or also on the back end and gave up some key picks it would just stall us more. At this point were winning and the best bet is to wait and see. Also i'd rather have Suter.

funghoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:43 PM
  #100
JoeFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
This whole thread is "what the?" People act like the NHL is a wasteland of goodies for us to pick and choose from like vultures because we're a superior team. Nashville aint givin up the goods that easy. Those 3 are all the got. Besides with all this uncertainty (discussed at vomitess levels on this forum) about these concussions we could go and give up key members of what is an insanely promising and potent roster for players we might not need. If Pronger comes back by playoffs and we gave up some two way depth up front or also on the back end and gave up some key picks it would just stall us more. At this point were winning and the best bet is to wait and see. Also i'd rather have Suter.
Pronger isn't coming back this season... And if we didn't talk about what we'd like to see happen (and what we think is plausable) the forum would be be pretty sparse... As for Nashville not giving up a player because they only have those 3, if they lost one and gained 3 quality players (hypothetically say JVR, Schenn and Mesz) does that not make them a better team? I'd say it did but I guess thats what trades are all about, each team getting better from their perspective.

JoeFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.