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HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

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Old
12-16-2011, 08:03 PM
  #101
pappyline
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
For comparison purposes, it would be interesting to include a column in the table showing the ranking from the 2008 top 100 list(Defenseman only not overall). It looks like quite a few shifts so far.
Don't know how to do a table but i will do it informally.

Current poll, top 60-2009, top 100-2010

Orr 1, 1, 1
harvey 2,2,2
Bourque 3,4,4
Shore 4,3,3
Lidstrom 5,6,7
Potvin 6,7,5
Kelly 7,5,6
Fetisov 8,9,9
Robinson 9,8,8
Chelios 10,10,11
Park 11,11,10
Clancy 12, 13,15
Coffey 13, 12, 12
Pilote 14,13,13
Cleghorn 15,19, 19
Seibert 16, 17,17
Horton 17,18,18
MacInnis 18,-,18
Stevens 19,-,22
Pronger 20,-,-
Gadsby 21.-,20
Salming 22,-,21
Leetch 23,-,25
Clapper 24,16,14
Savard-,-,24

Actually, not a lot of change. Most rankings changed by no more than one.

Clapper drop was due to confusion relating to his Rw years. Interesting that kelly wasn't really penalized much because of his years at centre.

Lidstrom and Pronger came up because they are still active and adding to their portfolio although I do think Pronger is being over-rated. Will be interested in seeing his ranking once people have had time to digest his full career.

Oddities are Cleghorn (up 4) and Stevens (up 3). Didn't really see any persuasive arguments for either to move up so much.

Most of the variables are likely due to the make up of the panels.

Just my thoughts.

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12-16-2011, 09:24 PM
  #102
Hardyvan123
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One wouldn't expect too much different given the involvement of some in the past projects and the information of the top 100 being out there and possibly predetermining the order that certain players come up in which affects the voting process as well.

I know of at least one person which might have participated but for time constraints and too much control of the process in screening, not sure how many others felt this way otherwise the list may have differed more perhaps.

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12-16-2011, 10:24 PM
  #103
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The old lists were shown to slightly favor players who played during the Original 6 period and the 1970s. I'm not passing judgment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing; it is a numerical fact.

See (this post) on how the Original 6 was favored in the 2009 project.

I'm pretty sure I remember someone analyzing the 2008 project by decade and found that the 1970s were the most represented, with everything before World War 2 and after 1980 less represented. (I think the specifics were that the 50s, 60s, and 70s had the most NHL players but the 70s also added players from Europe. Yet the 80s had fewer NHLers and Europeans).

So I find it interesting that basically every player who went up in ranking either played before World War 2 or after 1980, and every player who went down played between World War 2 and 1980. The big exception is Dit Clapper who is a special case (Tim Horton only went up because Clapper went down).

Al MacInnis stuck out like a sore thumb in the 2008 list for his high ranking relative to contemporaries, and many people wanted to lower his ranking - indeed he went from 64th to not in the top 70 in the 2009 list. Looks like the 2011 Defenseman project took the opposite approach - rather than lowering MacInnis down to the level of Stevens and Leetch, we raised Stevens and Leetch closer to the level of MacInnis.

If you think the high representation of the Original 6 period and the 1970s in the previous lists were unjustified, then this is a positive development. If you think the Original 6 and the 1970s represented the Golden Age of Hockey and had more great players, this is a negative development.

It's only a small change as pappy points out, but it does seem to represent a slight shift in the collective viewpoint of this board.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-16-2011 at 10:37 PM.
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Old
12-18-2011, 02:24 AM
  #104
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is it just me or could stevens be ranked ahead of macinnis and pilote. He's the leader of a mini-dyansty, they are not. People always say stevens was one dimensional pre 1995, then how did he get so many norris votes in 1988 and 1992? I would have ranked him above al, al played on better offensive teams and accomplished nothing from 1990-2003 in the playoffs.

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12-18-2011, 02:32 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
is it just me or could stevens be ranked ahead of macinnis and pilote. He's the leader of a mini-dyansty, they are not. People always say stevens was one dimensional pre 1995, then how did he get so many norris votes in 1988 and 1992? I would have ranked him above al, al played on better offensive teams and accomplished nothing from 1990-2003 in the playoffs.
I would have ranked Stevens over MacInnis

At least they are close this time

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12-18-2011, 03:48 AM
  #106
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Weird not seeing Niedermayer in the top 10 , let alone the top 20.

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12-18-2011, 04:06 AM
  #107
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Weird not seeing Niedermayer in the top 10 , let alone the top 20.
No, not really.

Do you think he did more than Brian Leetch?

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12-18-2011, 09:37 AM
  #108
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
is it just me or could stevens be ranked ahead of macinnis and pilote. He's the leader of a mini-dyansty, they are not. People always say stevens was one dimensional pre 1995, then how did he get so many norris votes in 1988 and 1992? I would have ranked him above al, al played on better offensive teams and accomplished nothing from 1990-2003 in the playoffs.
Better offensive teams?

But Stevens played on better teams, period.

Don't better teams accomplish more?

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Old
12-18-2011, 09:50 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Better offensive teams?

But Stevens played on better teams, period.

Don't better teams accomplish more?
Another thing worth remembering is those Stevens-captained Devils teams routinely finished near the top of the league in scoring. The fact that the Devils were absolutely suffocating defensively, and that they never had many flashy/"big-name" offensive players, led people to believe that they weren't good offensively. A dedicated smear campaign to label them as boring by the Toronto media (during the time period where they were beating the Leafs in the playoffs) didn't help matters.

MacInnis played on better "paper offensive teams" in terms of having more big names who were known for being offensive players, but they weren't always as effective as the Devils.

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12-18-2011, 11:21 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyman View Post
Weird not seeing Niedermayer in the top 10 , let alone the top 20.
I like Nieds but there is no way he is a top 10 guy, I could see top 20 with different criteria though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No, not really.

Do you think he did more than Brian Leetch?
No he didn't do more than Leetch but I think he is getting undervalued in this project just like Leetch did. Just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Another thing worth remembering is those Stevens-captained Devils teams routinely finished near the top of the league in scoring. The fact that the Devils were absolutely suffocating defensively, and that they never had many flashy/"big-name" offensive players, led people to believe that they weren't good offensively.[/B] A dedicated smear campaign to label them as boring by the Toronto media (during the time period where they were beating the Leafs in the playoffs) didn't help matters.

MacInnis played on better "paper offensive teams" in terms of having more big names who were known for being offensive players, but they weren't always as effective as the Devils.
I think it's fair on paper to say that those devils teams weren't that great offensively. Their system and counterattack led to most of their goals and the clutch and grab era and Broduer puck handling as the 3rd Dman also help in this matter.

From 95-03 I dare anyone to actually argue that the Devils' actual skillset on offensive was ever top 5. Maybe TDMM could elaborate as he has watched then more closely.

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12-18-2011, 12:21 PM
  #111
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The Devils were very good offensively in 1999, 2000, and 2001 when they moved away from the Jacques Lemaire trap. Especially 2000 and 2001 with the emergence of the A line, Gomez and Rafalski as rookies, and the trade for Mogilny. But yeah, they embarrassed Toronto in the playoffs, so they were boring.

Under coach Lemaire in te late 90s and Burns for a few years in the 00s, they were very defensive minded as a team and didn't score as much.

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:33 PM
  #112
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The Devils were very good offensively in 1999, 2000, and 2001 when they moved away from the Jacques Lemaire trap. Especially 2000 and 2001 with the emergence of the A line, Gomez and Rafalski as rookies, and the trade for Mogilny. But yeah, they embarrassed Toronto in the playoffs, so they were boring.

Under coach Lemaire in te late 90s and Burns for a few years in the 00s, they were very defensive minded as a team and didn't score as much.
I agree, I think the coaching had a big influence on the Devils offensive output.

As for Toronto, when you manager 6 shots on goal in a game 6 of a playoff series in your own building, seems to me the media should have considered the Leafs the boring team.

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12-23-2011, 11:00 PM
  #113
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2 Questions:

1) Does anybody know Eddie Gerard's jersey number or where to find it?

2) Does anyone want us to list all the jersey numbers a player used, like the Top 100 project? I think that would get too messy. For example, Bill Quackenbush wore #3, #15, and #16 with Detroit at various times. But he wore #11 his whole time in Boston, so that's what I used, despite the fact that he accomplished slightly more in Detroit.

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12-24-2011, 12:00 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
2 Questions:

1) Does anybody know Eddie Gerard's jersey number or where to find it?

2) Does anyone want us to list all the jersey numbers a player used, like the Top 100 project? I think that would get too messy. For example, Bill Quackenbush wore #3, #15, and #16 with Detroit at various times. But he wore #11 his whole time in Boston, so that's what I used, despite the fact that he accomplished slightly more in Detroit.
1. I would suggest checking with an SIHR member.

2. I'd rather not post every number. One number sounds fine to me.

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12-24-2011, 12:28 AM
  #115
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I don't even know why we are bothering with jersey numbers, to be honest. I just copied that category from the last project

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12-24-2011, 04:28 AM
  #116
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according to the SIHR database, Eddie Gerard wore #8 from 1916-1920, and #2 from 1921-1923. So you'd probably want to call him #8.

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12-24-2011, 04:50 AM
  #117
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according to the SIHR database, Eddie Gerard wore #8 from 1916-1920, and #2 from 1921-1923. So you'd probably want to call him #8.
Thanks

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12-24-2011, 07:07 AM
  #118
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I don't even know why we are bothering with jersey numbers, to be honest. I just copied that category from the last project
Seems like a waste of energy to me... is there a use for it?

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12-24-2011, 03:33 PM
  #119
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Is it me or former Habs just keep falling and falling for no reason whatsoever?!?!?!

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12-24-2011, 03:43 PM
  #120
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Is it me or former Habs just keep falling and falling for no reason whatsoever?!?!?!
I think Harvey, Robinson, Chelios, and Savard are ranked in reasonable places.

Who are you referring to?

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12-24-2011, 03:52 PM
  #121
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I think Harvey, Robinson, Chelios, and Savard are ranked in reasonable places.

Who are you referring to?
Harvey is stable at 2nd. Robinson fell. Savard fell.

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12-24-2011, 04:26 PM
  #122
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Harvey is stable at 2nd. Robinson fell. Savard fell.
Robinson is 9th, I can see the argument that he could jump Fetisov but who else could he really jump on this list?

As for Savard I have no problem with his ranking and he could have slid farther as there were alot of 2 way Dmen that could be ranked ahead of him and he was , to some, only the 3rd best Dman on his team for some seasons.

Savard is just one of those guys that could be ranked 25-40ish and not raise too many eyebrows IMO.

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12-24-2011, 05:00 PM
  #123
Dennis Bonvie
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Harvey is stable at 2nd. Robinson fell. Savard fell.
Savard fell?

I don't think he "fell" nearly enough.

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12-24-2011, 05:10 PM
  #124
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Savard fell?

I don't think he "fell" nearly enough.
Yeah, I think I had him 9th or 10th in the last vote.

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12-25-2011, 06:30 PM
  #125
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Is it me or former Habs just keep falling and falling for no reason whatsoever?!?!?!
Assuming voters aren't filling out their ballots at random, "no reason whatsoever" wouldn't be an accurate assessment.

Perhaps you're in the minority on some of your rankings.

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