So if Pronger retires, because of his 35+ contract, he will remain on the cap. However, if he does what Lappy is doing, we can put him on LTIR, and can exceed the cap by his cap hit, but during the offseason, he still counts towards the "tagging" space.
Is that all right?
Pretty much. In the summer he'll count towards the cap with the full amount (all one-way contracts do), but you're allowed to be over the cap by 10%.
There are a few rules about what he'll have to do to remain on LTIR though. He has, on paper, to actively try to get back into the game. We're in the grey zone with Lappy having him act as "development coach" and such, but the NHL are looking the other way.
I think the NHL can impose some sort of penalty for circumventing the cap if they rule that a player on LTIR should've been retired and count against the cap. Don't know what those penalties could consist of though, if it's giving up draft picks like NJ had to do with the Kovalchuk contract, or if they simply say that the contract from now on has to count against the cap.
We benefit too with continual increases to the cap.
Also, maybe the NHL will consider as part of new CBA negotiations something like the NBA did - basically paying someone a salary but not having them count against the cap. God, if we could do that, we'd be set...
Dont understand this, can u explain? Let's say Flyers can go 5 mil above the cap assuming Pronger caphit is 5 mil... so they can acquire someone worth 5 mil during the season , but not during the off season?
In the off-season you can exceed the cap by 10%, meaning we could go over it by 6.43 mil making our off-season cap limit 70.73 mil. With Pronger planned on going to LTIR his nearly 5 mil cap hit essentially doesn't count. That means we could "plan" on spending 65.73 mil in other 23-,an roster players which is greater than the cap limit of 64.3 mil. Most people don't really understand how the off-season cap limits work so they'd say that we were "ok".
However, EVERY signed player that played on your team the previous season counts to a degree during the off-season. Lets say that MAB plays 25% of the season on the Flyers active roster. During the off-season he eats up roughly 220k of that 70.73 cap space. Marshall counts a little, Walker counts a little, and every player we call up for injury fill-ins count a little.
Lets say that Pronger is LTIR'ed this year and he gives us 4 mil in cap relief. If we use all of that 4 mil in call-ups that are still under contract for next season then that will be 4 mil of that off-season cap space eaten up regardless of whether or mot we "plan" on them being on our 23-man roster or not. THAT is where we basically get screwed during the off-season (using LTIR cap relieve this season hurts your off-season cap space basically).
Now, if you use that LTIR cap relief on players with expiring contract (say we trade for Hannan for example) and you don't resign that player then that player obviously doesn't hurt you in the off-season as he's not under contract with your team.
Carle has been very solid since Pronger went down. Which is surprising. I expect him to go back to previous form though.
We really need another defensive D on the back end. Mez has shown some offensive flair and is a becoming a really good two way defenseman.
Kimmo - Coburn
Mez - Defensive D
Carle - Bourdon
I don't think Gus is really to take on that responsibility yet.
Timonen and Coburn are the top pairing now. Carle and whomever is paired with him (MAB or Meszaros) is our 2nd pairing. that leaves whatever (Gus, Mesz, MAB, Marshall, Lilja, Walker) as our bottome pairing. Mesz simply cannot run the 2nd pairing yet and honestly, it's looking like he never will be able to do so (much like Coburn can't, they both are simply complimentary pieces on whatever pairing they are on). Carle has shown repeatedly that he is more than capable of leading the 2nd pairing and doing so very well. He has much better hockey sense and a feel for the game than either Coburn or Meszaros.
Honestly, the BEST thing to do IMO would be to put Meszaros with Timonen and Coburn with Carle. Timonen should still be capable of making someone like Meszaros passable on the top pairing and putting Coburn with Carle on the 2nd pairing gives us a very strong 2nd pairing still. Once Lilja gets back you can have him lead the bottom pairing with either Gustafsson or MAB and that should be fine for a bottom pairing.
I expect the Flyers will do what they can to keep Carle.
Given the uncertainty of Pronger's future and the likelihood that this is Kimmo's last contract, Carle figures to be a central piece of the defense of the future...
Unless the management/coaching staff is really comfortable with the progress of the kids (MAB, Marshall, Gus, Bart, whoever) over the rest of this season, that is.
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FML, just noticed that and came back to edit. Yeah... well, anyone else we could have that'll look for approx 3-3,5M annual salary?
Francois Beauchemin, Brad Stuart, Barret Jackman, Willie Mitchell, Tim Gleason, Josh Gorges, Nicklas Grossman, Scott Hannan are all players somewhat in the Lydman mode that are UFA's at the end of the season.
Some of them will come in lower, some perhaps higher. I'm not very good at judging what players will sign for in the summer.
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.
There is while Pronger is out... Plus for me, you sign him to the best deal you can and then trade him if you have to because Pronger is back. He's an asset to us either playing or as trade bait. Better than being worth nothing to us by becoming a free agent.
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.
They may choose to resign Carle over 40 y/o Jagr and with Pronger possibly finished that would be the smarter thing to do no matter what the original intention was. If they didnt resign Carle they would have to replace him and his team leading minutes anyway. Jagr is nice and all but in no way a necessity in the way defense is. They probably extend Carle soon too before he gets anywhere near FA.
There is while Pronger is out... Plus for me, you sign him to the best deal you can and then trade him if you have to because Pronger is back. He's an asset to us either playing or as trade bait. Better than being worth nothing to us by becoming a free agent.
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangey
They may choose to resign Carle over 40 y/o Jagr and with Pronger possibly finished that would be the smarter thing to do no matter what the original intention was. If they didnt resign Carle they would have to replace him and his team leading minutes anyway. Jagr is nice and all but in no way a necessity in the way defense is. They probably extend Carle soon too before he gets anywhere near FA.
that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.
that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.
They aren't losing RFA Voracek. That's ridiculous.
Coburn's contract is roughly market value. Defensemen are expensive.
Other than that, you have to go over the numbers in detail and know what next year's cap is to discuss it and even then, it is more of an offseason thread. Obviously the 40 y/o Jagr is first to go if need be and they need another defensemen or two if Pronger and Carle are gone. I'm not going to get too worried about it now other than to predict they at least try to extend Carle and take it from there as their strategy to address their defensive problems. If Carle wants the 5+/yr he can probably get on the open market then they may go another direction but personally I think Carle is showing right now just how hard he is to replace.
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.
that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.
I can see your point about signing then trading... I still think his value is too much to let go when our defense isn't great long term right now... Whatever happens though someone will have to lose out because, as you say, we can't pay everyone more. Thats why I'm in favour of a much bigger overhaul...
Only when things are actually his fault. His criticism is well deserved based on his prior seasons and a good chunk of this one, before he was taken off the top pairing.
JVR is mainly the scapegoat this year.
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