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TOI. vs Goals, Interesting!! (Avery discussion)

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Old
12-18-2011, 10:38 AM
  #1
MAYO
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TOI. vs Goals, Interesting!! (Avery discussion)

Alright, so I took the time this morning to calculate the rosters current stats of ice average ice time times the amount of games divided by their goals. I came up with some interesting stats. Now, that being said, I won't deny that I'm one that believes that over the last week we've looked flat and want to see Avery re-instated into the line up and some of you have baulked at the idea saying that you doubt his limited ice time and role would make a difference. Well, I beg to differ, in fact, looking at these stats I think there's a few others that aren't pulling their weight and secondary scoring seems to be an alarming issue. Here you go!!
Gabs: a goal every 33.9 minutes of ice
Avery: a goal every 35.05 minutes of ice
Hags: a goal every 45.48 minutes of ice
Rupp: a goal every 50.32 minutes of ice
Richards: a goal every 52.6 minutes of ice
Cally:a goal every 52.85 minutes of ice
A.A. : a goal every 72.74 minutes of ice
Stepan: a goal every 79.07 minutes of ice
Feds: a goal every 114.30 minutes of ice
Mitch: a goal every 136.44 minutes of ice
E.C.: a goal every 161.40 minutes of ice
Prust: a goal every 168.90 minutes of ice
Boyle: a goal every 203.70 minutes of ice
Dubi: a goal every 514.20 minutes of ice

Now, don't get me wrong here, I am not saying Avery is worthy of Richards ice time, but seriously guys, see past the hate and admit that guys like Boyle, E.C. and even Mitch as of late contribute way less than a focused Avery.

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12-18-2011, 10:52 AM
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mrjimmyg89
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Mitchell will be down soon. I don't see him lasting long with Rupp being back. The 4th line is clogged as it is, and Mitchell isn't contributing enough to warrant a spot playing here, except for ahead of EC. I'm basing this on Tort's love of EC as well, he's clearly better than EC at this point.

Wolski will be back in a week or two as well, and the 3rd /4th line will be even more crowded from someone moving down or Wolski moving into one of those spots. I personally would love to see these lines come the WC:

Anisimov-Stepan-Gaborik
Wolski-Richards-Callahan
Hagelin-Dubinsky-Fedotenko
Avery/Rupp-Boyle-Prust

Balance, scoring, toughness, and grit in all the lines.

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12-18-2011, 10:57 AM
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MAYO
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I don't know about re-instating W.W. we've had nice success without him in the line up. I don't think our top two lines are the problem. I would love to see a third line of: Aves-Dubi-Hags.

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12-18-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
I don't know about re-instating W.W. we've had nice success without him in the line up. I don't think our top two lines are the problem. I would love to see a third line of: Aves-Dubi-Hags.
We've had trouble scoring goals recently.

I put W2 with Richie and Cally.

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12-18-2011, 11:03 AM
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I'm more concerned with getting secondary scoring out of our lines. Proof has been in our last games, if your top lines are off, your bottom two lines have to be able to come through in this league!

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12-18-2011, 11:23 AM
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If Prust, Boyle and Dubinsky could start scoring a goal total between the 3 of them every 3-4 games that would be huge.

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12-18-2011, 12:11 PM
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I don't understand Boyle, such a huge body yet he plays a soft game. As for Prust, he looks like he's trying to play through an injury of sorts. And Rupp looked painfully slow last night.

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12-18-2011, 12:16 PM
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Do you have the same view with points per minute?

Honestly, I think Dubinsky is going to need to sit for a few games if he can't break out of this funk very soon. I can't believe that a guy who normally puts up 20 or so goals suddenly can't score for a crap on a team that has been spreading out its scoring fairly evenly all season.

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12-18-2011, 12:19 PM
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Avery's inflated stats due to 3 goals and no ice time past it.

Avery is awful. Can we ****ing get past this already?

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12-18-2011, 12:21 PM
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I'm also an Avery supporter (or just a supporter of playing your best players). The excellent play of our star forwards and defense has covered up the lack of secondary scoring.

Torts is overplaying guys a lot. Will there be anything left for the playoffs? Torts goes out of his way to tell everyone how deep the team is, but he relies on the same small handful of players game after game.

EC was horrible (again) last night. I have never seen a player pushed off the puck so easily in my life. He literally kills offensive momentum. It is insulting to see him take power play time from other forwards.

If they are trying to showcase him, it's not working.

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12-18-2011, 12:23 PM
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So last year when Avery had 3 goals in 50+ games it was all about the importance of assists and his playmaking skills.

Now that he has 0 assists this season he is a goal scorer.

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12-18-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
So last year when Avery had 3 goals in 50+ games it was all about the importance of assists and his playmaking skills.

Now that he has 0 assists this season he is a goal scorer.
Or were just going what the people who ripped Avery used as a reason to get him off the team.

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12-18-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Avery's inflated stats due to 3 goals and no ice time past it.

Avery is awful. Can we ****ing get past this already?
Another stat showing Avery's worth. But I guess since it's Avery its invalid?

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12-18-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
So last year when Avery had 3 goals in 50+ games it was all about the importance of assists and his playmaking skills.

Now that he has 0 assists this season he is a goal scorer.
No... Avery is a hockey player and he does what is needed (agitate, score, fight, hit) to win.

The point is that Avery has done awesome with the little opportunity he has been given this season. He has outscored players with 10 times the ice time.

The point people are making is that if you play him more and play him with better players he will score and contribute even more.

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12-18-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Avery's inflated stats due to 3 goals and no ice time past it.

Avery is awful. Can we ****ing get past this already?
I totally disagree on this one. Avery is not a top player but he brings something to the table that a winning team needs. Look at the Rangers winning percentage in games he has played versus games he has sat either due to injuries or coaches decision and I bet it is one sided in his favor. As a Rangers fan for 40 years I know his talent level but I can see what he brings to the team as far as an agitator etc. If they are to win a Cup they will need a player like him and since he is here they might as well play him. I don,t think it is any concidence that outside of Hank he is probably the fans most popular player!

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12-18-2011, 12:36 PM
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I feel so sorry for all of you who simply have hate for Avery! any time a stat is shared on this board that proves he has his place on this team you shoot him down without an argument. Last time I had to post stats showing that he drew as many and more penalties than he took and all I got was how he caused "so many" offsides?!?!? What ever, if you guys enjoying watching E.C. embarrass this team, and the likes of Boyle getting ice time based on last years "career stats" and Mitch finally showing that his game doesn't have much depth to it, than so be it, but stop flaming a guy who isn't playing because of a lack of merit but because we have a coach who puts his ego before this team!

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12-18-2011, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Hotrox View Post
No... Avery is a hockey player and he does what is needed (agitate, score, fight, hit) to win.

The point is that Avery has done awesome with the little opportunity he has been given this season. He has outscored players with 10 times the ice time.

The point people are making is that if you play him more and play him with better players he will score and contribute even more.
I disagree. Avery has talent, has skill, but if you give him more ice time, say more than 10 minutes per game, it won't be the same.

I'm a firm believer of the law of diminishing returns. Avery and every player falls under this category. Avery has been effective in the minutes he's played, but the more minutes, more responsibility, and even better linemates, the more likelihood he will make a mistake. The more out of place he'd look as well. We've seen this in the past, and there is a great chance that it will never change. Players have a limit to ice time, and Sean's isn't as high as even Boyle, Rupp or Prust.

I wonder what people believe more ice time for Avery would be enough? Is it 8-10 minutes a game? 10-12? 12-14? 15+? What are the number of minutes he should be playing? I think anything over 11 minutes is too much. He's much more effective with less than that amount of ice time.

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12-18-2011, 12:43 PM
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You could have just used this helpful and handy website:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...8+17+18+19+20#

In terms of 5v5, Sean Avery has the highest goals to ice time ratio, ahead of Marian Gaborik. It really doesn't mean anything though since he gets so little ice time that anything he does is going to be magnified on a percentage basis.

I do find it interesting though that Anisimov leads the team in P/60 minutes of ice time at 5v5.

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12-18-2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
I disagree. Avery has talent, has skill, but if you give him more ice time, say more than 10 minutes per game, it won't be the same.

I'm a firm believer of the law of diminishing returns. Avery and every player falls under this category. Avery has been effective in the minutes he's played, but the more minutes, more responsibility, and even better linemates, the more likelihood he will make a mistake. We've seen this in the past, and there is a great chance that it will never change.

I wonder what people believe more ice time for Avery would be enough? Is it 8-10 minutes a game? 10-12? 12-14? 15+? What are the number of minutes he should be playing? I think anything over 11 minutes is too much. He's much more effective with less than that amount of ice time.
This is the key.

We've seen this before with all sorts of Rangers players. It's very easy for an average player to get hot or to look good when the sample size is very tiny but only the truly elite players (on this team, Gaborik, Richards, even Callahan now) can maintain that high level of production as the sample size (and the opportunities to fail) grow larger.

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12-18-2011, 12:49 PM
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Staalwars, thanks for the tip, but it was have my coffee and look busy or have to sit there and talk about the holiday plans with the wife!....lol. I'm not sure as too just how many minutes he may deserve, but how quickly we seem to forget him playing on the first line with J.J. in the playoffs and he didn't look out of place at all. All I'm saying is that I would rather have an Avery with limited ice time than no Avery at all!

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12-18-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
This is the key.

We've seen this before with all sorts of Rangers players. It's very easy for an average player to get hot or to look good when the sample size is very tiny but only the truly elite players (on this team, Gaborik, Richards, even Callahan now) can maintain that high level of production as the sample size (and the opportunities to fail) grow larger.
This.

Avery has three goals and didn't do a damn thing besides them. It's likely if we gave him first line minutes for 10 games he wouldn't do so much as notch an assist.

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12-18-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
I disagree. Avery has talent, has skill, but if you give him more ice time, say more than 10 minutes per game, it won't be the same.

I'm a firm believer of the law of diminishing returns. Avery and every player falls under this category. Avery has been effective in the minutes he's played, but the more minutes, more responsibility, and even better linemates, the more likelihood he will make a mistake. The more out of place he'd look as well. We've seen this in the past, and there is a great chance that it will never change. Players have a limit to ice time, and Sean's isn't as high as even Boyle, Rupp or Prust.

I wonder what people believe more ice time for Avery would be enough? Is it 8-10 minutes a game? 10-12? 12-14? 15+? What are the number of minutes he should be playing? I think anything over 11 minutes is too much. He's much more effective with less than that amount of ice time.
It's a good point. I think around 9-12 minutes should work fine. I don't think anyone is advocating 1st line minutes. I just think it's annoying to see someone playing well only get 4 minutes and then scratched.

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Old
12-18-2011, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Avery's inflated stats due to 3 goals and no ice time past it.

Avery is awful. Can we ****ing get past this already?
He's not awful. He belongs on the ice. You know nothing about hockey. Go away.

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12-18-2011, 01:23 PM
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He's not awful. He belongs on the ice. You know nothing about hockey. Go away.
Excellent post. Full of information. Many good points made.

You're the reason we can't have nice things.

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12-18-2011, 01:24 PM
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Dubinsky. Stepan. Gaborik
Hagelin. Richards. Callahan
Wolski. Anisimov. Fedotenko
Rupp. Boyle. Prust

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