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TOI. vs Goals, Interesting!! (Avery discussion)

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:25 PM
  #26
Callagraves
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So many emotionally attached fans trying to rationalize why a player who 29 teams passed on (to only pay 1/4 his salary) is the reason we will/won't win a cup.

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12-18-2011, 12:25 PM
  #27
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The idea that Avery who is one of the best conditioned guys on this team will perform worse and worse with more ice time is speculation with no basis in fact or even an anecdote. Big time reach and pure hate. Play him and let's see. He will be better than Boyle. Prust, EC, Feds, mitchell to name a few.

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12-18-2011, 12:27 PM
  #28
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Last year he was under Gilroy in this category.

The success of this team does not rest upon players like Avery or EC, who might not even be here next year. I don't understand why people make it out to be.

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12-18-2011, 12:27 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Dubinsky. Stepan. Gaborik
Hagelin. Richards. Callahan
Wolski. Anisimov. Fedotenko
Rupp. Boyle. Prust
Anisimov Stepan Gaborki
Wolski Richards Callahan
Feds Dubi Hagelin
Rupp Boyle Prust

Alternately, try WW out on the top line, but Arite at center on the third and let Dubi take the wing.

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12-18-2011, 12:28 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
The idea that Avery who is one of the best conditioned guys on this team will perform worse and worse with more ice time is speculation with no basis in fact or even an anecdote. Big time reach and pure hate. Play him and let's see. He will be better than Boyle. Prust, EC, Feds, mitchell to name a few.
There is no way he will play better than Feds. Feds does everything Avery should do and better.

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12-18-2011, 12:29 PM
  #31
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Hagelin has been one of our best players since his call up. And he hasn't let up.

If anyone deserves ice time and time with more talented linemates, its Hagelin.

Not Avery. Not Dubinsky. Not Wolski. Not Fedotenko.

Hagelin.

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12-18-2011, 12:33 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by nyrleetch View Post
Another stat showing Avery's worth. But I guess since it's Avery its invalid?
To his fans, his three goals last year were invalid. To his detractors, his three goals this year are invalid. Is that what you're getting at?

Because that leaves us even.

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12-18-2011, 12:34 PM
  #33
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Callagraves, are you by chance sleeping with one of Avery's ex'?!?! such hate for the guy!

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12-18-2011, 12:35 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
To his fans, his three goals last year were invalid. To his detractors, his three goals this year are invalid. Is that what you're getting at?

Because that leaves us even.
And if that leaves us even. I'd look at the players most recent stats to judge his worth. Avery has played fine 3 goals despite limited ice time.

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12-18-2011, 12:36 PM
  #35
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Gaborik-Stepan-Anisimov
Hagelin-Richards-Callahan
Avery-Dubinsky-Fedotenko
Rupp-Boyle-Prust

Mitchell 13th.

Wolski returns.

Avery or Rupp is 13th or whoever is struggling.

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:41 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
Callagraves, are you by chance sleeping with one of Avery's ex'?!?! such hate for the guy!
LOL. I can come across rather harsh, I admit.

Truth is, I don't mind Avery as a person. I've never met him, but he's one of the strangest players in the league, and I kind of like that. I like that he doesn't actually play dirty, hence his never being suspended for an on ice incident.

I absolutely admire him for speaking out for gay marriage, something a professional athlete isn't exactly likely to do. I think it was ballsy.

I think we have better players. I don't really like the game he plays. It's always entertaining watching players get pissed at him, but on a team that throws Ryan Callahan up as our captain, our model for identity, I don't think he has a place on the team. Not like he used to.

I'd like to see our guys frustrate and piss other players off with forechecking, hits, backchecking. all of those frustrating areas of play. His antics, while entertaining sometimes, are also embarassing.

Hope that clears things up.

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12-18-2011, 12:45 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Hagelin has been one of our best players since his call up. And he hasn't let up.

If anyone deserves ice time and time with more talented linemates, its Hagelin.

Not Avery. Not Dubinsky. Not Wolski. Not Fedotenko.

Hagelin.
I agree. Though, I'm more concerned with our ability to roll out three scoring lines. Haggy may deserve time with the best line mates, but if we can set up three GOOD scoring lines, i think you have to try it.

Also, Dubi is getting a little more hate than i think he deserves. His passing has been solid as of late. If he doesn't have the confidence to take the shot, I'd rather he pass to someone who does.

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:46 PM
  #38
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What a useless stat for many reasons, chief among them that not all minutes are created equal (PP,ES,PK).

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12-18-2011, 12:48 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nyrleetch View Post
It's a good point. I think around 9-12 minutes should work fine. I don't think anyone is advocating 1st line minutes. I just think it's annoying to see someone playing well only get 4 minutes and then scratched.
I think people need to realize that all of Sean's ice time comes at even strength. He gets no PP time and no SH time. It's hard to argue giving Sean even 9-11 minutes in games when there is a lot of special team time on ice. If there are 15 minutes of special team time combined, I'm not a fan of giving Sean roughly between 1/3-1/4 of the 45 minutes of ES ice time. there are players who should be on the ice that are more important than him to warrant that kind of ice-time

I personally believe Sean would get more ice time if he had played in the St. Louis game, where there was only one penalty called on both teams.

Perfect world, Sean plays in 1/5 of the ES time in a game, which is roughly 8-9 minutes, with all the special team time in games. I wouldn't mind seeing him in front of the net on the PP sometimes, as I think he can be useful there, but Boyle is going to get it being he bigger body.

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12-18-2011, 12:50 PM
  #40
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Callagraves, I appreciate your sense of humour, you have to admit that was a good one! I also respect your opinion of Avery now that you explained yourself. Although I agree that he can be a liability on the defensive side of the game, you mentioned using the forecheck and hits rather than his antics to frustrate the opposition, do you not think this is an area he can possibly help with, you can't deny his speed and physical play!

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:55 PM
  #41
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Hey MSG, thanks for helping us Avery fans debate our point although you tried to bury him! That's right, not all minutes are equal, but are you going to tell me that Gabby and Richards get more ice because they are killing off penalties?!? Ohhh no, they get man advantage minutes and 5 on 5 minutes with guys who can play! thanks for trying to flame my thread by helping my argument. Is this a friend of yours Callagraves?...lol

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Old
12-18-2011, 01:07 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
Callagraves, I appreciate your sense of humour, you have to admit that was a good one! I also respect your opinion of Avery now that you explained yourself. Although I agree that he can be a liability on the defensive side of the game, you mentioned using the forecheck and hits rather than his antics to frustrate the opposition, do you not think this is an area he can possibly help with, you can't deny his speed and physical play!
His physical game and speed, are to me, his only true areas of advantage. That being said, we have the ability to ice Rupp, Boyle, Prust as a 4th line that also can chip in goals, and we are doing so well up top, that we can have guys like Dubinsky, Feds, Wolski, or Hagelin on our 3rd line. On a team like that, I don't see much of a place for Sean.

As far as hitting goes, Cally, Dubi, Prust, Rupp, (when he gets his balls back) Boyle, Stepan has been hitting lately. Hell, i watched Gaborik put someone on his ass last night.


He doesn't bring nothing to the table. I think what he does bring, however, we have guys who do it better. He's a solid plug when we have many injures, I'll concede that. On a healthy Rangers team, I see him with the Wolf Pack.

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12-18-2011, 01:13 PM
  #43
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I think the fact that we are having this debate, again only proves that it's been a while since we've had some sort of depth that has allowed us to argue for who we thing should be the odd man out. I respect those who have come to the table with valid points rather than just hate! In my opinion I would rather see Aves than Rupp in the line up, Mitch and E.C. sent down.

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Old
12-18-2011, 01:19 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
I think the fact that we are having this debate, again only proves that it's been a while since we've had some sort of depth that has allowed us to argue for who we thing should be the odd man out. I respect those who have come to the table with valid points rather than just hate! In my opinion I would rather see Aves than Rupp in the line up, Mitch and E.C. sent down.
I'm likely to take Rupp over Avery.

EC who? That guy we bring in for shootouts? It's frustrating to rely on a guy for such an important moment when he's useless in the rest of the game (except the PP. for some reason he's done well there)

I'm say to say Mitchell's play has tailed off some. He impressed the **** out of me at times. When Wolski gets back, i see him as the odd man out.

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12-18-2011, 01:23 PM
  #45
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I'm actually dreading the return of W2! With the news of Emmy going down I think we have serious problems on our back end now!

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Old
12-18-2011, 01:32 PM
  #46
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I'm actually dreading the return of W2! With the news of Emmy going down I think we have serious problems on our back end now!
I've never said this, but I'm kind of hoping Sather makes some sort of move. Or tells us that Sauer or Staal will be back within a month

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12-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #47
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I'm with you on this one Calla, there is no way that Sather isn't working the phones as we speak. This time around, I am not so sure guys like Dubi, Boyle are off the table.

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Old
12-18-2011, 02:53 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
I disagree. Avery has talent, has skill, but if you give him more ice time, say more than 10 minutes per game, it won't be the same.

I'm a firm believer of the law of diminishing returns. Avery and every player falls under this category. Avery has been effective in the minutes he's played, but the more minutes, more responsibility, and even better linemates, the more likelihood he will make a mistake. The more out of place he'd look as well. We've seen this in the past, and there is a great chance that it will never change. Players have a limit to ice time, and Sean's isn't as high as even Boyle, Rupp or Prust.

I wonder what people believe more ice time for Avery would be enough? Is it 8-10 minutes a game? 10-12? 12-14? 15+? What are the number of minutes he should be playing? I think anything over 11 minutes is too much. He's much more effective with less than that amount of ice time.
When Avery played with Jagr, he was awesome. In the 2008 playoffs he had 7 points in 8 games. More responsibility, excellent play.

How much time should he get? More than terrible EC for starters. Even in games like Dec 1st vs Carolina when Avery scores a goal, he gets the least ice of all forwards.

[http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/boxscore...gid=2011120107 box score]

Torts is not objective, and his pettiness hurts the team.

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12-18-2011, 02:55 PM
  #49
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Thanks for getting my back Johnny!

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:08 PM
  #50
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Thanks for getting my back Johnny!
It's easy, the history supports what you're saying. Here's one more: 2007-2008 Avery was 8th on the team in scoring in only 57 games. Average TOI: 15:50. And so much for the conditioning argument, he went on to have a great playoff as well.

Maybe people forget, but he's quite effective on the power play. He actually has the stones to go to the net and take the punishment.

I'm shocked that even Avery haters seem to prefer watching EC turn the puck over nonstop and manage to be the ONLY minus player on the team last night.

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