HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Can the Flyers afford Matt Carle?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-16-2011, 12:02 AM
  #26
Go For It
Registered User
 
Go For It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,064
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
Why would he retire if he was still getting paid to sit on LTIR?
I'm not saying he would, and you're right. He has a large financial incentive not to. I'm just saying if he did for some reason.

Go For It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 12:06 AM
  #27
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
So if Pronger retires, because of his 35+ contract, he will remain on the cap. However, if he does what Lappy is doing, we can put him on LTIR, and can exceed the cap by his cap hit, but during the offseason, he still counts towards the "tagging" space.

Is that all right?
Pretty much. In the summer he'll count towards the cap with the full amount (all one-way contracts do), but you're allowed to be over the cap by 10%.

There are a few rules about what he'll have to do to remain on LTIR though. He has, on paper, to actively try to get back into the game. We're in the grey zone with Lappy having him act as "development coach" and such, but the NHL are looking the other way.

I think the NHL can impose some sort of penalty for circumventing the cap if they rule that a player on LTIR should've been retired and count against the cap. Don't know what those penalties could consist of though, if it's giving up draft picks like NJ had to do with the Kovalchuk contract, or if they simply say that the contract from now on has to count against the cap.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 12:37 AM
  #28
mypunkrock
Registered User
 
mypunkrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 2,426
vCash: 500
We benefit too with continual increases to the cap.

Also, maybe the NHL will consider as part of new CBA negotiations something like the NBA did - basically paying someone a salary but not having them count against the cap. God, if we could do that, we'd be set...

mypunkrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 12:46 AM
  #29
StandingCow
Registered User
 
StandingCow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 50
It is pretty crappy to have an injured player count against your cap... what are you supposed to do? Predict it?

StandingCow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 01:03 AM
  #30
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StandingCow View Post
It is pretty crappy to have an injured player count against your cap... what are you supposed to do? Predict it?
Not give a 35-year old a seven-year contract extension to begin when he's 36, for one.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 01:13 AM
  #31
StandingCow
Registered User
 
StandingCow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Not give a 35-year old a seven-year contract extension to begin when he's 36, for one.
I am talking about overall. This being a 35+ has nothing to do with my statement. Players out for the year shouldn't count against the cap.

StandingCow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 03:14 AM
  #32
phlocky
Registered User
 
phlocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
Dont understand this, can u explain? Let's say Flyers can go 5 mil above the cap assuming Pronger caphit is 5 mil... so they can acquire someone worth 5 mil during the season , but not during the off season?

In the off-season you can exceed the cap by 10%, meaning we could go over it by 6.43 mil making our off-season cap limit 70.73 mil. With Pronger planned on going to LTIR his nearly 5 mil cap hit essentially doesn't count. That means we could "plan" on spending 65.73 mil in other 23-,an roster players which is greater than the cap limit of 64.3 mil. Most people don't really understand how the off-season cap limits work so they'd say that we were "ok".

However, EVERY signed player that played on your team the previous season counts to a degree during the off-season. Lets say that MAB plays 25% of the season on the Flyers active roster. During the off-season he eats up roughly 220k of that 70.73 cap space. Marshall counts a little, Walker counts a little, and every player we call up for injury fill-ins count a little.

Lets say that Pronger is LTIR'ed this year and he gives us 4 mil in cap relief. If we use all of that 4 mil in call-ups that are still under contract for next season then that will be 4 mil of that off-season cap space eaten up regardless of whether or mot we "plan" on them being on our 23-man roster or not. THAT is where we basically get screwed during the off-season (using LTIR cap relieve this season hurts your off-season cap space basically).

Now, if you use that LTIR cap relief on players with expiring contract (say we trade for Hannan for example) and you don't resign that player then that player obviously doesn't hurt you in the off-season as he's not under contract with your team.

phlocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 07:01 AM
  #33
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Carle has been very solid since Pronger went down. Which is surprising. I expect him to go back to previous form though.

We really need another defensive D on the back end. Mez has shown some offensive flair and is a becoming a really good two way defenseman.

Kimmo - Coburn
Mez - Defensive D
Carle - Bourdon

I don't think Gus is really to take on that responsibility yet.

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2011, 11:53 PM
  #34
phlocky
Registered User
 
phlocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Carle has been very solid since Pronger went down. Which is surprising. I expect him to go back to previous form though.

We really need another defensive D on the back end. Mez has shown some offensive flair and is a becoming a really good two way defenseman.

Kimmo - Coburn
Mez - Defensive D
Carle - Bourdon

I don't think Gus is really to take on that responsibility yet.

Timonen and Coburn are the top pairing now. Carle and whomever is paired with him (MAB or Meszaros) is our 2nd pairing. that leaves whatever (Gus, Mesz, MAB, Marshall, Lilja, Walker) as our bottome pairing. Mesz simply cannot run the 2nd pairing yet and honestly, it's looking like he never will be able to do so (much like Coburn can't, they both are simply complimentary pieces on whatever pairing they are on). Carle has shown repeatedly that he is more than capable of leading the 2nd pairing and doing so very well. He has much better hockey sense and a feel for the game than either Coburn or Meszaros.


Honestly, the BEST thing to do IMO would be to put Meszaros with Timonen and Coburn with Carle. Timonen should still be capable of making someone like Meszaros passable on the top pairing and putting Coburn with Carle on the 2nd pairing gives us a very strong 2nd pairing still. Once Lilja gets back you can have him lead the bottom pairing with either Gustafsson or MAB and that should be fine for a bottom pairing.

phlocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 12:07 AM
  #35
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,097
vCash: 955
I expect the Flyers will do what they can to keep Carle.

Given the uncertainty of Pronger's future and the likelihood that this is Kimmo's last contract, Carle figures to be a central piece of the defense of the future...

Unless the management/coaching staff is really comfortable with the progress of the kids (MAB, Marshall, Gus, Bart, whoever) over the rest of this season, that is.

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 06:50 AM
  #36
CptCannon
Registered User
 
CptCannon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,970
vCash: 500
Summer plan: let Carle walk, sign Lydman.

CptCannon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 07:02 AM
  #37
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
Summer plan: let Carle walk, sign Lydman.
Lydman is already under contract for next year.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 07:25 AM
  #38
CptCannon
Registered User
 
CptCannon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,970
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Lydman is already under contract for next year.
FML, just noticed that and came back to edit. Yeah... well, anyone else we could have that'll look for approx 3-3,5M annual salary?

CptCannon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 08:17 AM
  #39
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
FML, just noticed that and came back to edit. Yeah... well, anyone else we could have that'll look for approx 3-3,5M annual salary?
Francois Beauchemin, Brad Stuart, Barret Jackman, Willie Mitchell, Tim Gleason, Josh Gorges, Nicklas Grossman, Scott Hannan are all players somewhat in the Lydman mode that are UFA's at the end of the season.

Some of them will come in lower, some perhaps higher. I'm not very good at judging what players will sign for in the summer.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 08:43 AM
  #40
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 110,749
vCash: 5888
Bringing in Lydman to replace Carle wasn't a good plan anyways.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:10 PM
  #41
bauer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,107
vCash: 500
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.

bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:16 PM
  #42
MountainHawk
Registered User
 
MountainHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salem, MA
Country: Vanuatu
Posts: 12,771
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by StandingCow View Post
It is pretty crappy to have an injured player count against your cap... what are you supposed to do? Predict it?
Not spend right to the cap.

MountainHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:23 PM
  #43
JoeFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.
There is while Pronger is out... Plus for me, you sign him to the best deal you can and then trade him if you have to because Pronger is back. He's an asset to us either playing or as trade bait. Better than being worth nothing to us by becoming a free agent.

JoeFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:36 PM
  #44
orangey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 37
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
unless Carle accepts a contract that will pay him less than 4M/year, he's as good as gone. a team can't have 5 defensemen making over 4M. that would cripple the team's ability to resign players. Jagr's having a great year and needs to be resigned. Voracek needs to be resigned too. there's just no money left to give Carle the raise he will want.
They may choose to resign Carle over 40 y/o Jagr and with Pronger possibly finished that would be the smarter thing to do no matter what the original intention was. If they didnt resign Carle they would have to replace him and his team leading minutes anyway. Jagr is nice and all but in no way a necessity in the way defense is. They probably extend Carle soon too before he gets anywhere near FA.

orangey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 03:36 PM
  #45
bauer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFlyer View Post
There is while Pronger is out... Plus for me, you sign him to the best deal you can and then trade him if you have to because Pronger is back. He's an asset to us either playing or as trade bait. Better than being worth nothing to us by becoming a free agent.
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangey View Post
They may choose to resign Carle over 40 y/o Jagr and with Pronger possibly finished that would be the smarter thing to do no matter what the original intention was. If they didnt resign Carle they would have to replace him and his team leading minutes anyway. Jagr is nice and all but in no way a necessity in the way defense is. They probably extend Carle soon too before he gets anywhere near FA.
that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.

bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 03:44 PM
  #46
flyersfan018
Registered User
 
flyersfan018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,420
vCash: 50
Anyone else like Josh Gorges if Montreal decides to let him go? He reminds me of Dan Girardi from New York.

flyersfan018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 04:05 PM
  #47
orangey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 37
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.



that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.
They aren't losing RFA Voracek. That's ridiculous.

Coburn's contract is roughly market value. Defensemen are expensive.

Other than that, you have to go over the numbers in detail and know what next year's cap is to discuss it and even then, it is more of an offseason thread. Obviously the 40 y/o Jagr is first to go if need be and they need another defensemen or two if Pronger and Carle are gone. I'm not going to get too worried about it now other than to predict they at least try to extend Carle and take it from there as their strategy to address their defensive problems. If Carle wants the 5+/yr he can probably get on the open market then they may go another direction but personally I think Carle is showing right now just how hard he is to replace.

orangey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 04:20 PM
  #48
JoeFlyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer View Post
you can't sign him then trade him. no one will ever want to come to Philly if the organization keeps signing players to long term deals only to trade them right after.


that's fine for Jagr, but what about Voracek? where's the money gonna come to resign him? the team is already in trouble because Homer signed Coburn to that ridiculous contract. i like Coby, but he ain't worth 4.5M/year. so if you resign Carle, he's gonna want at least the same as Coby. so you've got an increase of at least 2.4M for next year and the team's already right against the cap now. so say bye to Jagr and Voracek, the offense would become much weaker without those two. Pronger is an unknown, for all we know he can be 100% ready for the start of next year. which is why you don't rush to resign Carle.
I can see your point about signing then trading... I still think his value is too much to let go when our defense isn't great long term right now... Whatever happens though someone will have to lose out because, as you say, we can't pay everyone more. Thats why I'm in favour of a much bigger overhaul...

JoeFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 05:40 PM
  #49
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,194
vCash: 50
Matt Carle - Scapegoat 2011/12

1865 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 06:11 PM
  #50
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 38,239
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Matt Carle - Scapegoat 2011/12
Only when things are actually his fault. His criticism is well deserved based on his prior seasons and a good chunk of this one, before he was taken off the top pairing.

JVR is mainly the scapegoat this year.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.