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TOI. vs Goals, Interesting!! (Avery discussion)

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:19 PM
  #51
stan the caddy
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But Sean Avery only scored three goals last year

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12-18-2011, 03:23 PM
  #52
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Old
12-18-2011, 03:25 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
Hey MSG, thanks for helping us Avery fans debate our point although you tried to bury him! That's right, not all minutes are equal, but are you going to tell me that Gabby and Richards get more ice because they are killing off penalties?!? Ohhh no, they get man advantage minutes and 5 on 5 minutes with guys who can play! thanks for trying to flame my thread by helping my argument. Is this a friend of yours Callagraves?...lol
Please show me where I knocked Avery. Where did you get that idea from???

All I was doing was pointing out the fact that the stat provides zero useful insight. You can have whatever opinion you want but please god do not base it on that stat.


Last edited by MSG the place to be*: 12-18-2011 at 03:32 PM.
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Old
12-18-2011, 03:56 PM
  #54
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The stat is useful when comparing different players who are in similar situations. The problem with applying it to Avery is that the sample size is just too small to draw any conclusions from it.

That being said, I do think he should be on the roster and I fully expect him to make a return at some point.

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:57 PM
  #55
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There was a time where the benefit of the doubt between Avery and Tortorella was blurred a bit, a time where an argument to get Avery more minutes was an interesting one. That time has passed this season.

Tortorella has steadily improved as Rangers coach, to the point where he has the team near the top of the NHL standings 30 games in. As a fan, I trust his judgment and the direction hes taking this club more than I ever have.

And if he doesnt trust Sean Avery to play consistent minutes, then who can really blame him? No matter how many excuses are being made for Avery, it always seems to come back to a conspiracy involving the coach. Well, these are two guys headed in different directions when it comes to their Ranger legacy.

I, for one, will be happy when Avery is finally gone and maybe some fans can focus on the myriad of more important issues surrounding the team.

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12-18-2011, 04:03 PM
  #56
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Actually MSG and I clash on just about every thread, always about Gaborik.

I do agree that stats alone are not a basis for an argument, but need to be used to support it. The difficulty is the human element. If we act like players are defined only by their stats, then we forget that Dubinsky absoloutely LIT UP the league last season....for about 25 games.

If we look only at stats, then we won't see that Gabby was invisible and useless all of last year, except in a dozen games.

If you only look at stats, Ryan Callahan is by no means a special player.

So if we roll out Avery's goal total with his ice time, yes, it's a pretty stat. But to use the argument that he would CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE AT THAT PACE is inconsistent with the rest of his career, playing style, and role within the team.

The story is not in the stats. The stats are the footnote. They're for fantasy teams. Some stats, you can't ignore. Others, come across as just a bit particular.

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12-18-2011, 04:23 PM
  #57
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Wow Callagraves, so well said, I think I have a tear!...lol. But seriously, the stats I threw out there were for mere conversation and to share opinions.

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Old
12-18-2011, 04:24 PM
  #58
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I think if both those in favour and against Avery could get past the rhetoric things would be more amicable.

Ultimately, Avery is not a star player, and he won't score 50 points if he plays for 14 minutes. However he should absolutely be playing instead of Erik Christensen. Surely we can all settle for this?

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Old
12-18-2011, 04:27 PM
  #59
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Well actually my stats do suggest that with more playing time he would be a 50 goal scorer!

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12-18-2011, 04:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by wr50l View Post
However he should absolutely be playing instead of Erik Christensen. Surely we can all settle for this?
Ehh, Im not so sure.

Christensen plays center and is one of the best shootout options in the league. Avery can play a grinding game (in the rare instances where he turns it on, these days) and is a source of entertainment for most people.

They're both pretty worthless.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ehh, Im not so sure.

Christensen plays center and is one of the best shootout options in the league. Avery can play a grinding game (in the rare instances where he turns it on, these days) and is a source of entertainment for most people.

They're both pretty worthless.
We shouldn't overstate Avery's contributions. But I don't think it's possible to understate Christensen's.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:19 PM
  #62
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more avery. less callagraves.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ehh, Im not so sure.

Christensen plays center and is one of the best shootout options in the league. Avery can play a grinding game (in the rare instances where he turns it on, these days) and is a source of entertainment for most people.

They're both pretty worthless.
whether you think hes worthless or not hes playing good and has not hurt the team one bit. he should be playing.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
There was a time where the benefit of the doubt between Avery and Tortorella was blurred a bit, a time where an argument to get Avery more minutes was an interesting one. That time has passed this season.

Tortorella has steadily improved as Rangers coach, to the point where he has the team near the top of the NHL standings 30 games in. As a fan, I trust his judgment and the direction hes taking this club more than I ever have.

And if he doesnt trust Sean Avery to play consistent minutes, then who can really blame him? No matter how many excuses are being made for Avery, it always seems to come back to a conspiracy involving the coach. Well, these are two guys headed in different directions when it comes to their Ranger legacy.

I, for one, will be happy when Avery is finally gone and maybe some fans can focus on the myriad of more important issues surrounding the team.
and what about the fans that are only concerned with hating avery? in fact a hater callagraves has the team is better without avery right in his avatar. its not just averys fans that dont focus on a myriad of more important issues surrounding the team.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:38 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
There was a time where the benefit of the doubt between Avery and Tortorella was blurred a bit, a time where an argument to get Avery more minutes was an interesting one. That time has passed this season.

Tortorella has steadily improved as Rangers coach, to the point where he has the team near the top of the NHL standings 30 games in. As a fan, I trust his judgment and the direction hes taking this club more than I ever have.

And if he doesnt trust Sean Avery to play consistent minutes, then who can really blame him? No matter how many excuses are being made for Avery, it always seems to come back to a conspiracy involving the coach. Well, these are two guys headed in different directions when it comes to their Ranger legacy.

I, for one, will be happy when Avery is finally gone and maybe some fans can focus on the myriad of more important issues surrounding the team.
Tortorella has improved? Or is it the talent on the team that has improved?

I think Tortorella gets out coached way too often, and his ego is a major obstacle.

Look at the last two losses against St. Louis and Dallas. Very good matchups between these teams. Very good games between the teams. But we lost them both. Beat at our own game both times, beat by speed and physicality.
Surely the player are responsible out on the ice, but this guy lacks the ability to adjust in game, i just haven't seen it from him.

He's a great motivator, a great conditioner and disciplinarian, but he's not a great coach. Give him a team of uber talent and he will roll people keeping the guys motivated and hungry.
A mediocre team like ours right now and just about every game is a coin flip. I fear a 7 game series where adjustments will need to be made if we are not fully healthy with all our skilled players available.

I guess I just have a different opinion than your though. I think in Tortorella fashion, he has made up his mind about Avery on day one and has never looked back.... its near impossible to get out of the Tortorella doghouse because doing so means he was wrong.

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Old
12-18-2011, 06:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
There was a time where the benefit of the doubt between Avery and Tortorella was blurred a bit, a time where an argument to get Avery more minutes was an interesting one. That time has passed this season.
I have to agree his time has passed. As much as I like Avery's game, It's obvious Torts wants no part it.

Watching HBO's 24/7, you get an insight into Torts thinking on the matter. He does not like the yapping,... to the refs, or to the opponents. And that's Avery's game.

Torts choosing EC over Avery to make the team,... was a clear sign that he does not want to win under those conditions. He wants no distractions. He wants to win with hard work and discipline. And while Avery might be one of the hardest workers on the ice, you could hardly say he's well behaved.

I happen to like what Avery brings to this team. With the accepted concept of hate for rival teams, I believe the trash talking is a useful tool to get the opponents off their game. And there is absolutely nobody better at it, than Avery. Not to mention the speed and skill he has is very underrated.

There's no way EC is a better player as Torts blatantly stated " We have better players than Avery" But I think with the HBO special, we get a better idea why Avery's ship has sailed. And that he is basically a last resort.

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Old
12-18-2011, 06:31 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
So last year when Avery had 3 goals in 50+ games it was all about the importance of assists and his playmaking skills.

Now that he has 0 assists this season he is a goal scorer.

Its very hard to comment on the stats of a guy that plays 7 minutes a night. Avery has proven when he gets minutes with talented players that he is effective. He looked great with Gabby last year and score with richards this year. He obviously cant be blamed for his stats if hes not getting minutes.

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Old
12-18-2011, 06:37 PM
  #68
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brandon dubinsky. a goal every 514.20 minutes. mother of god.

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Old
12-18-2011, 06:57 PM
  #69
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Its very hard to comment on the stats of a guy that plays 7 minutes a night. Avery has proven when he gets minutes with talented players that he is effective. He looked great with Gabby last year and score with richards this year. He obviously cant be blamed for his stats if hes not getting minutes.
This is a silly argument. Just really, really silly. The NHL is littered with guys that could be "effective" when playing with talented players.

The guys that stick are the ones that are able to play in other situations and can be trusted to play well on the defensive side of the puck. That hasn't been Avery for quite a while.

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12-18-2011, 07:19 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This is a silly argument. Just really, really silly. The NHL is littered with guys that could be "effective" when playing with talented players.

The guys that stick are the ones that are able to play in other situations and can be trusted to play well on the defensive side of the puck. That hasn't been Avery for quite a while.
Thats totally unfair. Avery's mouth and antics have more to do with why he's not playing than his skill. The guy would have been out of the league 5 yrs ago if it was his play that was the problem.

Hell, there isn't a person here that can honestly say he didn't earn a roster spot in camp. He was sent down for 2 reasons, salary and he's not a Tort's guy...and thats fine, it's Tort's team and he gets to make that call, but lets not pretend like he sucked.

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Old
12-18-2011, 07:22 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This is a silly argument. Just really, really silly. The NHL is littered with guys that could be "effective" when playing with talented players.

The guys that stick are the ones that are able to play in other situations and can be trusted to play well on the defensive side of the puck. That hasn't been Avery for quite a while.

I like to call it the "P.A. Parenteau effect"

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Old
12-18-2011, 08:05 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
LOL. I can come across rather harsh, I admit.

Truth is, I don't mind Avery as a person. I've never met him, but he's one of the strangest players in the league, and I kind of like that. I like that he doesn't actually play dirty, hence his never being suspended for an on ice incident.

I absolutely admire him for speaking out for gay marriage, something a professional athlete isn't exactly likely to do. I think it was ballsy.

I think we have better players. I don't really like the game he plays. It's always entertaining watching players get pissed at him, but on a team that throws Ryan Callahan up as our captain, our model for identity, I don't think he has a place on the team. Not like he used to.

I'd like to see our guys frustrate and piss other players off with forechecking, hits, backchecking. all of those frustrating areas of play. His antics, while entertaining sometimes, are also embarassing.

Hope that clears things up.
Got a few problems with this. Besides your first couple of paragraphs where you try to act like you're complimenting him for things that most of us who support him don't give two craps about, your comments just make you sound like you don't watch hockey.

Can I ask you something? When was the last time that Sean Avery used these "antics" that you speak of? Since Torts has been here and neutered the hell out of him please name the most recent event that was so egregious that Sean Avery instigated. It should be interesting for all of us to hear your response. If you don't like him based on the player he's been over the years that's fine. But what exactly does that have to do with right now? He hasn't been the instigating, toeing the line Sean Avery in ages.

We have better players...ha. Torts is that you? We all know you hate Aves Johnny Cakes, but now you're infiltrating the message board to try and prove your inaccurate point? Right we know, we know. Erik Christensen, Mike Rupp, John Mitchell, they're all better. We see it with our own eyes.

Maybe Johnny Cakes will come out and tell us how Sean's not "dead on" again but how it's really his fault cause he only plays him 4 minutes a game. Therefore the solution must be to scratch him. That makes sense, seeing as the games he's actually been given minutes he's produced exactly how you'd hope a bottom 6 forward would. So let's not give him ice time then, criticize his play, blame yourself, and then bench him. Brilliant coaching.

Anyone who constantly makes posts about how everyone needs to get over Sean Avery and he's not a good hockey player all while not minding the fact that we currently have three players playing every night in our forward group whom he's better than really doesn't sound like a New York Rangers fan.

I guess the only thing that overrides some people's love for the New York Rangers is their hate for Sean Avery.


Last edited by ruckus*: 12-18-2011 at 08:21 PM.
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Old
12-18-2011, 08:09 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
There was a time where the benefit of the doubt between Avery and Tortorella was blurred a bit, a time where an argument to get Avery more minutes was an interesting one. That time has passed this season.

Tortorella has steadily improved as Rangers coach, to the point where he has the team near the top of the NHL standings 30 games in. As a fan, I trust his judgment and the direction hes taking this club more than I ever have.

And if he doesnt trust Sean Avery to play consistent minutes, then who can really blame him? No matter how many excuses are being made for Avery, it always seems to come back to a conspiracy involving the coach. Well, these are two guys headed in different directions when it comes to their Ranger legacy.
The reason people can blame him is because Erik Christensen is the reason he's not in the lineup. That's your reason right there. End of story. Period. I could go on forever about how worthless Mike Rupp is but it's a moot point when Erik Christensen is the reason he's not playing.


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I, for one, will be happy when Avery is finally gone and maybe some fans can focus on the myriad of more important issues surrounding the team.
Like you?

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Old
12-18-2011, 08:12 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Actually MSG and I clash on just about every thread, always about Gaborik.

I do agree that stats alone are not a basis for an argument, but need to be used to support it. The difficulty is the human element. If we act like players are defined only by their stats, then we forget that Dubinsky absoloutely LIT UP the league last season....for about 25 games.

If we look only at stats, then we won't see that Gabby was invisible and useless all of last year, except in a dozen games.

If you only look at stats, Ryan Callahan is by no means a special player.

So if we roll out Avery's goal total with his ice time, yes, it's a pretty stat. But to use the argument that he would CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE AT THAT PACE is inconsistent with the rest of his career, playing style, and role within the team.

The story is not in the stats. The stats are the footnote. They're for fantasy teams. Some stats, you can't ignore. Others, come across as just a bit particular.

You do realize that everyone who has spent months and months on this board bashing Avery to no end has had an argument that consisted in its entirety of "Why does everyone care about a player who scored three goal last year emoticon LOL emoticon LOL LOL LOL LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

Right?

That's why now, while obviously hilarious but not surprising, for those of us who have defended him against those worthless points, it's funny to talk about how he has three goals while getting 5 minutes of ice time and playing how many games exactly this year?

But if you dared try to explain that to so many of the gloriously enlightened around here it was right back to the "he scored three goals last year LOLOLOLOOOLOOLOLOLOL LMFAOOOOL OOLOLOLOLO"

So now that the shoes on the other foot, it's kind of stupid for anyone who is anti-Avery to be taking your stance.

Not sure if you've been around for all that but just so you know. It's actually hilarious how the argument just gets twisted no matter what.


Last edited by ruckus*: 12-18-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old
12-18-2011, 08:13 PM
  #75
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I gladly welcome Stu over Erixon with the Flyers and Devils on tap..Bring up Andy Deveux too!

OOPS..Wrong thread

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