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Dean Lombardi's Transactions since 2006

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:25 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Claude Giroux
Ryan Kesler
P.K. Subban - Not Elite
T.J. Oshie - Not Elite
Mike Green
Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Corey Perry - Not Elite (I want him to do it for more than one season)
Mike Richards - Not Elite
Loui Eriksson - Not Elite
Patrice Bergeron - Not Elite
Ryan Getzlaf
Brent Burns - Not even close to Elite
Shea Weber
David Backes - Not even close to Elite
Cam Ward
Duncan Keith
David Perron - Not Elite
Max Pacioretty - Not Elite


Beg to differ.
Edit is mine, and I define Top End as elite.. so on your list, 9 players I would call elite, and that's stretching it in some cases....

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12-18-2011, 05:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Claude Giroux
Ryan Kesler
P.K. Subban
T.J. Oshie
Mike Green
Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Corey Perry
Mike Richards
Loui Eriksson
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Getzlaf
Brent Burns
Shea Weber
David Backes
Cam Ward
Duncan Keith
David Perron
Max Pacioretty


Beg to differ. If your scouts can do their job...i'd say late first round and early scond is capable of producing a lot of stars.
Nice edit lol, but yea, disagree,

There are tiers of players, ie,

Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Parise, etc

Then you have guys like,

Eriksson, Neal, Kesler, Giroux,

Then you have guys like,

Kessel, Lucic, Krejc, etc,

I am talking top end talent, as in the Stamko's, Parise's, etc, there are very few out there that are drafted..

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12-18-2011, 05:54 PM
  #28
Ziggy Stardust
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Who was the last productive top six forward that the Kings drafted? Kopitar in 2005? And that was under the Taylor regime. That's a bit alarming if you ask me.

The lack of emphasis on skill and skating is what bothers me most about Lombardi. Look throughout his history as a GM in the NHL, not much emphasis places on highly skilled forwards.

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12-18-2011, 06:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Who was the last productive top six forward that the Kings drafted? Kopitar in 2005? And that was under the Taylor regime. That's a bit alarming if you ask me.

The lack of emphasis on skill and skating is what bothers me most about Lombardi. Look throughout his history as a GM in the NHL, not much emphasis places on highly skilled forwards.
I would have to see his tenure in SJ,

As far as LA, if you look at what he's done, he's been flat out methodical,

He established a goaltender pipeline, we have one of the deepest goaltending systems in the league, Quick, Bernier, Jones, Zatkoff, Gibson, etc.

He established a defenseman pipeline, again, we have one of the deepest defense system in the league, D under 25, Johnson, Doughty, Martinez, Voynov Those are playing solid minutes in the NHL, on the farm, Muzzin, Hickey, Campbell, Deslauriers, then Forbort, and I've probably forgotten a few,

It takes TIME to build something like that up,

Now, if you put together his last few drafts, he is working on the forwards,

Vey, Weal, Kozun, Kitsyn, Toffoli, etc,

He has always maintained that he builds from the net out, why is everyone surprised when he does this?

Like I said, I would have to see his drafting history in SJ, but pretty sure he drafted some solid skill over there that Wilson is taking the credit for

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12-18-2011, 06:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Who was the last productive top six forward that the Kings drafted? Kopitar in 2005? And that was under the Taylor regime. That's a bit alarming if you ask me.

The lack of emphasis on skill and skating is what bothers me most about Lombardi. Look throughout his history as a GM in the NHL, not much emphasis places on highly skilled forwards.
This is who Lombardi drafted in SJ, he started in 1996- 2003, those who made it to the NHL

1996
Andrei Zyzuzin
Marco Sturm
Matt Bradley

1997
Patrick Marleau
Scott Hannan
Mark Smith

1998
Brad Stuart
Jonathan Cheechoo
Rob Davison
Mikhael Samuelsson

1999
Jeff Jillson
Niko Dimitrakos
Douglas Murray

2000

No one

2001
Marcel Goc
Christian Ehroff
Ryan Clowe

2002

No one

2003

Milan Michalek
Steve Bernier
Matt Carle
Joe Pavelski


So, skilled forward talent that he drafted, Marleau and Michalek, in the 1st rounds, Pavelski, Clowe, Cheechoo, Samuelsson in the later rounds..

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12-18-2011, 06:50 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Who was the last productive top six forward that the Kings drafted? Kopitar in 2005? And that was under the Taylor regime. That's a bit alarming if you ask me.

The lack of emphasis on skill and skating is what bothers me most about Lombardi. Look throughout his history as a GM in the NHL, not much emphasis places on highly skilled forwards.
It ultimately falls at the feet of Lombardi given his emphasis on goaltending and defense, his subsequent line of drafting, and his selection in coach and system. It is no coincidence that we are last in offense, have almost been consistently so since his rebuild and hiring of Murray, and all of our top 6 forward prospects have failed, been traded away, or headed off overseas.

It should also paint a pretty clear picture as to why it is so hard to sign any noticeable players at the position. It seemingly will forever be Lombardi's ultimate flaw. You see it quite evidently throughout his reign with San Jose as well, not only the problem with free agents, but also his struggles with offense. The Sharks were one of the better defensive teams in the league and one of the worst offensive teams throughout his tenure.

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12-18-2011, 06:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
You see it quite evidently throughout his reign with San Jose as well, not only the problem with free agents, but also his struggles with offense. The Sharks were one of the better defensive teams in the league and one of the worst offensive teams throughout his tenure.
Don't agree with this,

First, he drafts Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski, Michalek, those are skilled top six forwards,

He trades for Selanne, Damphousse, Nolan, Graves,

Those are all offensive players that he brought in or drafted, the results may not have been there, but that's like saying Dustin Brown isn't scoring now because Dean Lombardi is the GM....

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12-18-2011, 07:01 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Don't agree with this,

First, he drafts Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski, Michalek, those are skilled top six forwards,

He trades for Selanne, Damphousse, Nolan, Graves,

Those are all offensive players that he brought in or drafted, the results may not have been there, but that's like saying Dustin Brown isn't scoring now because Dean Lombardi is the GM....
Didn't mention drafting or trades. Free agency and team philosophy.

Marleau's goal totals during Lombardi's reign: 13,21,17,25,21,28
Marleau's goal totals after Lombardi's reign: 28,34,32,19,38,44,37

Many of those players you mention weren't developed by Lombardi and his system.

They were up to the top 5 in defense multiple years, and down to the upper teens and twenties in offense virtually every year.

This is Lombardi's M.O.

Drawing a line to today's comparisons of LA's current scorers isn't as far-fetched as you make it.

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12-18-2011, 07:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Didn't mention drafting or trades. Free agency and team philosophy.

Marleau's goal totals during Lombardi's reign: 13,21,17,25,21,28
Marleau's goal totals after Lombardi's reign: 28,34,32,19,38,44,37

Many of those players you mention weren't developed by Lombardi and his system.

They were up to the top 5 in defense multiple years, and down to the upper teens and twenties in offense virtually every year.

This is Lombardi's M.O.

Drawing a line to today's comparisons of LA's current scorers isn't as far-fetched as you make it.
Not trying to make it sound far-fetched, I am saying though that he has methodically started at goaltenders, built that up, went to defense, built that up, and by the time he tries the offense, impatient people have had enough,

Kopitar was developed under Lombardi's system though as was Brown etc, so there is offense to be had there,

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12-18-2011, 07:17 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
It should also paint a pretty clear picture as to why it is so hard to sign any noticeable players at the position. It seemingly will forever be Lombardi's ultimate flaw. You see it quite evidently throughout his reign with San Jose as well, not only the problem with free agents, but also his struggles with offense. The Sharks were one of the better defensive teams in the league and one of the worst offensive teams throughout his tenure.
The free agent stuff really is out of Lombardi's control. It's not a Lombardi thing, it's not a Kings thing. Vancouver doesn't get big free agents. San Jose hasn't, and still doesn't after Lombardi. Anaheim lucked out once. Calgary has to sign everyone to NMC's on multi-year contracts. Edmonton isn't a destination. Colorado, even when they were great, didn't bring in many free agents of note. Phoenix has had a terrible name free agent record.

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12-18-2011, 07:18 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Not trying to make it sound far-fetched, I am saying though that he has methodically started at goaltenders, built that up, went to defense, built that up, and by the time he tries the offense, impatient people have had enough,

Kopitar was developed under Lombardi's system though as was Brown etc, so there is offense to be had there,
5+ years is a long time to find an offense that can adapt to Lombardi's system and not be last in the league. When Lombardi was fired from the Sharks, only one player he drafted was top 5 in scoring on the team, after 7 years...

It takes a very special kind of forward to develop and succeed under Lombardi's system, and we are going back to that very same era. We are already established as horrible offensively and good defensively and now we are going to be coached by the very same man.

I'm all for giving Lombardi his shot, but his neck is on the line here again, and odds are the guillotine will fall.

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12-18-2011, 07:33 PM
  #37
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Nice edit lol, but yea, disagree,

There are tiers of players, ie,

Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Parise, etc

Then you have guys like,

Eriksson, Neal, Kesler, Giroux,

Then you have guys like,

Kessel, Lucic, Krejc, etc,

I am talking top end talent, as in the Stamko's, Parise's, etc, there are very few out there that are drafted..
Thanks on the 'Nice edit" appreciate it.



so what you're saying..is you can't get a Crosby unless you have the top overall pick. Thanks. I didn't know that.

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12-18-2011, 07:33 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Don't agree with this,

First, he drafts Marleau, Clowe, Pavelski, Michalek, those are skilled top six forwards,

He trades for Selanne, Damphousse, Nolan, Graves,

Those are all offensive players that he brought in or drafted, the results may not have been there, but that's like saying Dustin Brown isn't scoring now because Dean Lombardi is the GM....
Lombardi was fired prior to the selections of Pavelski and Michalek.

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12-18-2011, 07:35 PM
  #39
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Lombardi was fired prior to the selections of Pavelski and Michalek.
Didn't know that, saw his tenure was 1996-2003, so figured the draft in 2003 was his as well...

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12-18-2011, 07:36 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Thanks on the 'Nice edit" appreciate it.



so what you're saying..is you can't get a Crosby unless you have the top overall pick. Thanks. I didn't know that.
Sorry, you were the one calling Brent Burns elite, just remembered that,

That was my point, ELITE players, are RARELY drafted past 16th overall....especially these days...

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12-18-2011, 07:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Claude Giroux
Ryan Kesler
P.K. Subban
T.J. Oshie
Mike Green
Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Corey Perry
Mike Richards
Loui Eriksson
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Getzlaf
Brent Burns
Shea Weber
David Backes
Cam Ward
Duncan Keith
David Perron
Max Pacioretty


Beg to differ. If your scouts can do their job...i'd say late first round and early scond is capable of producing a lot of stars
.
Having three 1st's in the 2003 draft and only hitting on 1 speaks volumes to this. Tambellini,Boyle and Pushkarev were the 3 players we took after Brown. And we didn't draft a single defenseman in that draft.

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12-18-2011, 08:06 PM
  #42
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The list of players who IMO didn't pan out for the Kings. Forgive me if I forgot anyone from the trade side of things:

Cloutier
O'sullivan (although was used to get Williams)
Modry
Lundmark
Gauthier
Labarbara
Halpern
Modin
Sturm
Penner
O'Sullivan was fine in LA, 22 goals as a 22 year old, and 14 in 62 games as a 23 year old before being traded for Justin Williams shouldn't put him on the "did not pan out list." He should certainly be on that list for EDM, CAR, MIN, and PHO but not LA. Furthermore, we shouldn't be looking back at DL's signings in 2006 and 2007 and say "Hey, that guy sucked." The whole point of rebuilding is to finish at the bottom of the league and rack up a few high draft picks, without walking around telling everyone that's what you're doing. So you sign a few **** goaltenders and "character" players who will give 100% effort, but still suck.

In my mind, you can only criticize Lombardi for his failures in which he was trying to build a competitive team, which are plenty, but there are still a few successes that even the field out.

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12-18-2011, 08:27 PM
  #43
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Sorry, you were the one calling Brent Burns elite, just remembered that,

That was my point, ELITE players, are RARELY drafted past 16th overall....especially these days...
le sigh, sometimes it's not worth arguing with people

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12-18-2011, 09:04 PM
  #44
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how many forwards have DL drafted that's in our top 6?
what FA that DL has signed to fill our top 6 wings? Gagne and Williams LOL

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12-18-2011, 09:06 PM
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how many forwards have DL drafted that's in our top 6?
what FA that DL has signed to fill our top 6 wings? Gagne and Williams LOL
You must count trades as you counted Williams,

So, Williams, Penner, Richards,

3.

Better question, how many of our current solid D has DL acquired?

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12-18-2011, 09:07 PM
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You must count trades as you counted Williams,

So, Williams, Penner, Richards,

3.

Better question, how many of our current solid D has DL acquired?
Sorry, forgot Gagne,

So 4.

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12-18-2011, 09:09 PM
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i counted williams because DL resgined him.

but yea not something to brag about.

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12-18-2011, 09:55 PM
  #48
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Not that I'm suggesting that Dean Lombardi and his staff draft poorly, but their preference to go for character over talent is evident to me.

The one selection that will irk me to no end is the drafting of Trevor Lewis ahead of Claude Giroux in 2006. You know Lombardi and his staff would never make that pick for a couple of reasons, one being that Giroux played in the QMJHL. Secondly because he was always considered a finesse player. It also doesn't help that Chris Stewart was selected right after the Kings picked Trevor Lewis.

Lewis was also an overage pick who had been passed over the year prior. He was never considered a prospect with high upside, but just a solid prospect who would be an NHL player, at best a third line checking forward. In the second round of that very same draft the Kings selected Joey Ryan. Two picks later, the Bruins picked up Milan Lucic.

I know, hindsight helps my argument, but just look at how Boston established itself and their future with just this draft alone. They get Kessel in the first round, who is later moved to acquire Tyler Seguin. They nab Lucic in the second round, and in the third round, they draft Brad Marchand. Drafts like that setup the future success of your franchise, and this draft pretty much helped Boston become the team that they are today.

This strategy makes me wonder, are they truly basing their picks on best player available, or are they simply drafting the best character player available? Look up and down this roster and even in the pipeline and identify who could possibly emerge as the next Patrick Sharp or Loui Eriksson or Jamie Benn or Ryan Callahan. There is one prospect who may fit into that category, Tyler Toffoli. Other than him, this organization is nary on skill.

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12-18-2011, 10:20 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Not that I'm suggesting that Dean Lombardi and his staff draft poorly, but their preference to go for character over talent is evident to me.

The one selection that will irk me to no end is the drafting of Trevor Lewis ahead of Claude Giroux in 2006. You know Lombardi and his staff would never make that pick for a couple of reasons, one being that Giroux played in the QMJHL. Secondly because he was always considered a finesse player. It also doesn't help that Chris Stewart was selected right after the Kings picked Trevor Lewis.

Lewis was also an overage pick who had been passed over the year prior. He was never considered a prospect with high upside, but just a solid prospect who would be an NHL player, at best a third line checking forward. In the second round of that very same draft the Kings selected Joey Ryan. Two picks later, the Bruins picked up Milan Lucic.

I know, hindsight helps my argument, but just look at how Boston established itself and their future with just this draft alone. They get Kessel in the first round, who is later moved to acquire Tyler Seguin. They nab Lucic in the second round, and in the third round, they draft Brad Marchand. Drafts like that setup the future success of your franchise, and this draft pretty much helped Boston become the team that they are today.

This strategy makes me wonder, are they truly basing their picks on best player available, or are they simply drafting the best character player available? Look up and down this roster and even in the pipeline and identify who could possibly emerge as the next Patrick Sharp or Loui Eriksson or Jamie Benn or Ryan Callahan. There is one prospect who may fit into that category, Tyler Toffoli. Other than him, this organization is nary on skill.
Pretty sure TG will disagree with you on that last bit,

Toffoli, Vey, Weal, Kozun and Kitsyn are all solid prospects, not all will make it, but if two of the do, that's solid.

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12-18-2011, 10:27 PM
  #50
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Good stuff Ziggy. As far a drafting Lewis [even picking Bernier] Lombardi was going on the info provided by Al Murray, and not by his own personal drafting criteria. Had he had his own scouts in place, he's probably drafting a defenseman with that pick,and as you put it "a character guy".

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