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TOI. vs Goals, Interesting!! (Avery discussion)

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Old
12-18-2011, 08:15 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Avery's inflated stats due to 3 goals and no ice time past it.

Avery is awful. Can we ****ing get past this already?
Yea, seriously. I knew once I read the title of the thread it was going to be about Avery.

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12-18-2011, 08:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This is a silly argument. Just really, really silly. The NHL is littered with guys that could be "effective" when playing with talented players.

The guys that stick are the ones that are able to play in other situations and can be trusted to play well on the defensive side of the puck. That hasn't been Avery for quite a while.
Like Carl Hagelin, for example. Who averages about 11 minutes ATOI and is a .5 PPG player and a +7.

The right players will make the most of their ice time.

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12-18-2011, 08:32 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Like Carl Hagelin, for example. Who averages about 11 minutes ATOI and is a .5 PPG player and a +7.

The right players will make the most of their ice time.
This argument isn't about Carl Hagelin though Super. It honestly has nothing to do with him. I don't want to speak for everyone who supports Avery but I am not asking that he supplants really anyone in the lineup other than Christensen or Rupp. He should be on the ice over those two, no questions asked. My biggest problem is that this coach refuses to roll four lines, even though EVERY time he does so this team shows how much more effective it is. People who ***** about Avery are just haters, it is what it is at this point. We know that because they honestly make comments like "he shouldn't be in the NHL anymore" and believe what they're saying. If this coach would just roll four lines it would benefit the entire team as it has all season and that's where having a player like Avery in your bottom six makes you a much better team.

Avery is a .42 ppg player over is career, which spans 580 games. A much larger sample size than Carl Hagelin. He's averaged around 12 minutes a game over his career and is a +16. Again, a much larger sample size. I don't think any of this argument about Avery has anything at all to do with Carl Hagelin, cause I'm sure that most of us who think Avery should be playing aren't asking it be at the expense of Hags. But since you brought up those stats I was curious to see the comparison. Kinda funny how our coach refuses to use him.

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12-18-2011, 08:45 PM
  #79
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If you look at the Flyers the only forwards that average less than 12 minutes a game are Harry Zolnierczyk (rookie, only played 19 games), Zac Rinaldo (the only real regular...not a very noteworthy hockey player), and our friend Jody Shelley who hasn't even played much this year.

The Pens lowest TOI forward is Arron Asham and he still gets 9+ minutes a game.

Good teams have depth. And we have depth. The problem is our head coach wastes it by making it completely ineffective.

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12-18-2011, 09:34 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ehh, Im not so sure.

Christensen plays center and is one of the best shootout options in the league. Avery can play a grinding game (in the rare instances where he turns it on, these days) and is a source of entertainment for most people.

They're both pretty worthless.
This is the garbage that makes Avery-bashers lose all credibility. EC should play behind MZA and a host of other prospects.

The fact that Torts has a 28-year-old stiff stifling the development of legit NHL players is disgusting to watch.

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12-18-2011, 10:05 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Johnny Hotrox View Post
This is the garbage that makes Avery-bashers lose all credibility. EC should play behind MZA and a host of other prospects.

The fact that Torts has a 28-year-old stiff stifling the development of legit NHL players is disgusting to watch.
18-8-4, best start to a season in close to 20 years, yet "disgusting to watch." You need to get a God damn grip before you say stupid stuff like this.

The only thing thats disgusting is watching people continue to complain about inconsiquential things like Christensen, Avery, MZA or any of the "host of other prospects" that you deliriously think are ready.

And Ill say it again, Im not an Avery hater/basher/whatever, but I do think its really sad that the conversation on these boards always seem to devolve back towards him instead of the 18-20 guys that are making this team the success that its becoming.

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12-18-2011, 10:19 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
18-8-4, best start to a season in close to 20 years, yet "disgusting to watch." You need to get a God damn grip before you say stupid stuff like this.
Stupid stuff? Like insinuating that the point he was trying to make is in any way correlated to that? This teams record could be better if the best players were on the ice every night. Not sure what your point is.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post

And Ill say it again, Im not an Avery hater/basher/whatever
Yes. You are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
but I do think its really sad that the conversation on these boards always seem to devolve back towards him instead of the 18-20 guys that are making this team the success that its becoming.
Yeah. Because people like you continue to come up with absolutely nothing that proves a point that this team isn't better with him on the ice and that there aren't people playing who are worse than him.

That's the crux of the whole thing. There are people that are in the lineup that are worse hockey players. He can, and has, contributed more. That's the point. And that's what matters.

Other than the same 5 people who can't stand him, most of the fan base realizes he deserves to be playing. You're right. There shouldn't be anything to talk about.

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12-18-2011, 10:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Yes. You are.
Thats strange. Dont I have to care about his situation in some way, shape, or form to be a true hater of Sean Avery? Hes not worth it.

My problem lies with the people that constantly misjudge the type of player Avery is here in 2011, and inflate his worth. You're a charter member of this group. Instead of enjoying a good start to the year and discussing the people that really mean something to it (Richards, Gaborik, Lundqvist, Callahan, Stepan, Girardi, McDonagh, and *GASP* yes, even Torts), you choose to incessantly ***** about the coach and his decisions with the last guys on the roster. Its a pathetic subject to focus on over and over and over again.

Will you be as upset when John Mitchell, about as equally effective as Avery, loses his roster spot when the team gets healthier? No, of course not. Because his name isn't Sean Avery and he didnt screen Brodeur in that zany way 4 years ago!

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12-18-2011, 10:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Thats strange. Dont I have to care about his situation in some way, shape, or form to be a true hater of Sean Avery? Hes not worth it.

My problem lies with the people that constantly misjudge the type of player Avery is here in 2011, and inflate his worth. You're a charter member of this group. Instead of enjoying a good start to the year and discussing the people that really mean something to it (Richards, Gaborik, Lundqvist, Callahan, Stepan, Girardi, McDonagh, and *GASP* yes, even Torts), you choose to incessantly ***** about the coach and his decisions with the last guys on the roster. Its a pathetic subject to focus on over and over and over again.

Will you be as upset when John Mitchell, about as equally effective as Avery, loses his roster spot when the team gets healthier? No, of course not. Because his name isn't Sean Avery and he didnt screen Brodeur in that zany way 4 years ago!
I'd probably be pretty pissed if Mitchell lost his job to Christensen. Having said that, I'd like to see more of Mitchell. I already know what type of player Avery is and I know he's a lot more valuable to the team than Christensen.

Torts hatred of Avery just doesn't really make any sense and it's worth talking about.

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12-18-2011, 10:39 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
I'd probably be pretty pissed if Mitchell lost his job to Christensen. Having said that, I'd like to see more of Mitchell. I already know what type of player Avery is and I know he's a lot more valuable to the team than Christensen.

Torts hatred of Avery just doesn't really make any sense and it's worth talking about.
It doesnt? 29 other teams passed on him when they had a chance to claim him on waivers. His NHL career is over after this season by all intents and purposes. It doesnt make sense?

Perhaps you guys should be happy hes on an NHL roster for the time being instead of complaining about how he deserves so much more.

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12-18-2011, 10:51 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It doesnt? 29 other teams passed on him when they had a chance to claim him on waivers. His NHL career is over after this season by all intents and purposes. It doesnt make sense?

Perhaps you guys should be happy hes on an NHL roster for the time being instead of complaining about how he deserves so much more.
29 teams passed on Sean Avery because their current players might give him the Brenden Morrow treatment. I'm so tired of this argument.

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12-18-2011, 11:11 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Thats strange. Dont I have to care about his situation in some way, shape, or form to be a true hater of Sean Avery? Hes not worth it.

My problem lies with the people that constantly misjudge the type of player Avery is here in 2011, and inflate his worth. You're a charter member of this group. Instead of enjoying a good start to the year and discussing the people that really mean something to it (Richards, Gaborik, Lundqvist, Callahan, Stepan, Girardi, McDonagh, and *GASP* yes, even Torts), you choose to incessantly ***** about the coach and his decisions with the last guys on the roster. Its a pathetic subject to focus on over and over and over again.

Will you be as upset when John Mitchell, about as equally effective as Avery, loses his roster spot when the team gets healthier? No, of course not. Because his name isn't Sean Avery and he didnt screen Brodeur in that zany way 4 years ago!
When John Mitchell produces in this league for as long as Sean Avery has I'll start paying attention. Mitchell deserves to play over players like Erik Christensen. Just like Sean Avery does. I've never spent time talking about Sean Avery being the core reason for this team's success currently. As a fan, yes, I care about everyone who is on the ice because it takes an entire team to win. Top 6 players are of utmost importance, but it takes an entire roster to win. Having the best players at your disposal on the ice should be of utmost importance then. And to continually act like it doesn't matter again and again to attempt to try and prove a point that it's not something worth talking about doesn't mean that's true.

Resorting to a comment like the one you ended with is another thing we see from the Avery detractors again and again. Bringing up something that isn't at all relevant and acting like it's the reason for people supporting him is clueless. It's just bringing up things that you and others don't like about him. Old Sean Avery was entertaining as hell before he was neutered, yes that much is true. But he was also a good hockey player then as well. The Sean Avery we've seen the past few years is a regular bottom 6 hockey player who deserves to be on the ice for this club because he improves the quality of this team.

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12-18-2011, 11:13 PM
  #88
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so just because we see the injustice of avery out of the lineup and christensen in, were not enjoying the 18-8-4 start? enough of this. its like saying we can start biron five games in a row, win 4 out of those five and not ***** that henrik isnt playing.

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12-18-2011, 11:16 PM
  #89
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Chip: If you don't like my comment, you're welcome to debate it. Saying that you'd like "More Avery. Less Callagraves" isn't constructive. It's being a dick. Have I ever been a dick to you?

Ruckus: You're right in that his "antics" have been mostly non-existent in recent years. I've been watching the Rangers for a fair while, and I've never been a fan of his on ice product. When I speak to my respect for him as a person, i'm looking to differentiate myself from those who ignorantly hate a player because they're not very good.

My tag is presently better without avery only because since he's been sat in favor of EC, I've been arguing so often that we are, actually, a better team without Avery, despite what a single inconclusive incidental statistic MIGHT imply.

As I mentioned, I've been on the board for a little over a year I imagine, and while i've never been a fan of Sean's, he has, in the past, served a role on the team. I think that time is past.

But please, please, don't blame me for hypocrites who happen to have the same stance as me. Their failure to abide by logic and reason does not invalidate my argument.

I hadn't even realized I quoted Torts when i said we have better players.

Ruckus, we argue, but we tend to do it well. Still, don't call me Johnny Cakes.

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12-18-2011, 11:19 PM
  #90
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i've lost count how many times a hater says we only want avery in because of what he did to brodeur and the avery fans arent enjoying the start to this season. it seems like every thread this happens, including this one, there is a new stat or a new point that shows avery should at least be in the lineup over christensen, and the rebuttals are always the same. the you only like him because he screened brodeur and avery fans are only worried about avery thing has gotten old.

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12-18-2011, 11:25 PM
  #91
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I am not an Avery fan. I've made that much clear.

But that doesn't change my overall opinion on his caliber as an NHLer. He is a much better NHLer than either of Christensen or Mitchell at this point, and keeping him out of the lineup to play Christensen is detrimental to the club. I don't understand it. Say whatever you want, but this team is better when he is in the lineup as opposed to a player like Christensen. It's that simple. Doing what is best for the team - and Torts ain't doing that by scratching Avery with the current roster.

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12-18-2011, 11:27 PM
  #92
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Avery > Christensen

That is my only issue with Avery not playing.

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12-18-2011, 11:28 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
I am not an Avery fan. I've made that much clear.

But that doesn't change my overall opinion on his caliber as an NHLer. He is a much better NHLer than either of Christensen or Mitchell at this point, and keeping him out of the lineup to play Christensen is detrimental to the club. I don't understand it. Say whatever you want, but this team is better when he is in the lineup as opposed to a player like Christensen. It's that simple. Doing what is best for the team - and Torts ain't doing that by scratching Avery with the current roster.
I expect Torts' logic would be that he doesn't expect either of them to make a difference at even strength, but Christensen has the shootout specialty, an area where we've been weak this year.

I don't necessarily agree with the decision to play EC, but i can see why.

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12-18-2011, 11:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I expect Torts' logic would be that he doesn't expect either of them to make a difference at even strength, but Christensen has the shootout specialty, an area where we've been weak this year.

I don't necessarily agree with the decision to play EC, but i can see why.
Christensen is 1-for-3 in the shootout this season, I believe. Avery is better in every facet sans that - you don't play a weaker player simply because of shootouts - you shouldn't expect to be going to the shootout.

He's fine as a spare part to keep around in case of injury, but he shouldn't be a regular player, and right now, he's being utilized as one. Avery CAN be a regular player, and he can be a very effective regular player.

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12-18-2011, 11:34 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I expect Torts' logic would be that he doesn't expect either of them to make a difference at even strength, but Christensen has the shootout specialty, an area where we've been weak this year.

I don't necessarily agree with the decision to play EC, but i can see why.
so we play christensen for about 5 minutes a night and then call on him if the game possibly goes into a shootout (where he has not been good this year). and in doing so, scratch avery who has played well even strength and has triple the amount of goals dubinsky has in far less games. all of this, while we have the best shootout goalie in the league. so we are really only a better team if the game goes into a shootout.

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12-18-2011, 11:34 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Christensen is 1-for-3 in the shootout this season, I believe. Avery is better in every facet sans that - you don't play a weaker player simply because of shootouts - you shouldn't expect to be going to the shootout.

He's fine as a spare part to keep around in case of injury, but he shouldn't be a regular player, and right now, he's being utilized as one. Avery CAN be a regular player, and he can be a very effective regular player.
As I said, I don't fully agree with playing either of them. I'd rather see someone else get their shot at it.

I just expect after losing 3 out of 4 shootouts, that'd be why.

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12-18-2011, 11:37 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
As I said, I don't fully agree with playing either of them. I'd rather see someone else get their shot at it.

I just expect after losing 3 out of 4 shootouts, that'd be why.
Who else is going to play? Zuccarello is hurt, only other player I could see getting a callup. No thanks to Deveaux or Newbury.

When healthy, Avery is a great 12th/13th forward to have around. If he's on your 4th line, you have pretty good depth, because Avery is a pretty good hockey player. Christensen is absolute waiver fodder (yes, Avery was waived, but, honestly, I just think Torts is out to lunch on this).

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12-18-2011, 11:37 PM
  #98
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so we play christensen for about 5 minutes a night and then call on him if the game possibly goes into a shootout (where he has not been good this year). and in doing so, scratch avery who has played well even strength and has triple the amount of goals dubinsky has in far less games. all of this, while we have the best shootout goalie in the league. so we are really only a better team if the game goes into a shootout.
Check my response to Zenith.

Also, I really wouldn't compare Avery to Dubinsky. Sean's not even close, and I think we both know it.

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12-18-2011, 11:39 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Check my response to Zenith.

Also, I really wouldn't compare Avery to Dubinsky. Sean's not even close, and I think we both know it.
i know its not even close. because he has triple dubinsky's goal total. see, not even close.

im not comparing who is better at what head to head. but who is having the better season so far.

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12-18-2011, 11:39 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Who else is going to play? Zuccarello is hurt, only other player I could see getting a callup. No thanks to Deveaux or Newbury.

When healthy, Avery is a great 12th/13th forward to have around. If he's on your 4th line, you have pretty good depth, because Avery is a pretty good hockey player. Christensen is absolute waiver fodder (yes, Avery was waived, but, honestly, I just think Torts is out to lunch on this).

...I had Zucc in mind, I never saw the injury update.

I'd gag if I ever see Deveaux in a Rangers sweater again. Agitators may be annoying, but cheapshots are just unacceptabe.

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