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Mr. Snider Picks Up The Phone, "hey Pauly Get Me Suter Or Weber Without Giving Up.. "

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Old
12-18-2011, 02:56 PM
  #101
funghoul
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Originally Posted by JoeFlyer View Post
Pronger isn't coming back this season... And if we didn't talk about what we'd like to see happen (and what we think is plausable) the forum would be be pretty sparse... As for Nashville not giving up a player because they only have those 3, if they lost one and gained 3 quality players (hypothetically say JVR, Schenn and Mesz) does that not make them a better team? I'd say it did but I guess thats what trades are all about, each team getting better from their perspective.
I understand the point of this forum. Thanks tho. I am being an as s. ill admit it. i just get crazy about trade speculation cause it goes beyond just havin an opinion. it's fantasy land. I'll just stay out of it tho

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:05 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Why trade all that for him when you can get him for 2 1sts a 2nd and a 3rd in the summer?

Or when you can get Ryan Suter for free?

It's a ridiculous overpayment and there's no chance Homer makes that deal.

Shea Weber is great. But he isn't worth Richards + Carter, and that's what you're asking us to give up. Value equivalent to those 2... for an elite defenseman that is only your guaranteed property for this year and next... and a guy who is looking to set the record for biggest contract ever given to a defenseman.

No thanks.

It's not worth it.

I don't want to kill my forward depth for a luxury #1 defenseman.
Who is Richards + Carter in this scenario? Schenn + Couturier? Because I'm saying the Flyers would only have to give up one of those two. I've also long been of the opinion that JVR won't reach his ceiling because he doesn't show enough of the requisite nastiness and assertiveness needed to accentuate his talents. Like Carter, I only see ephemeral glimpses on the ice when I can think to myself, man, JVR wants it tonight. The fact that he doesn't do this consistently means, in my opinion, that he doesn't have the intangible "it" factor, the fire burning deep in his belly to be the best player he can be -- you know, like Giroux does. I know Holmgren just signed JVR to a six-year deal which was likely largely predicated on the fact that the organization thought his playoff performance was the indicator that he was emerging. But whereas someone like Giroux continued to show his playoff form as soon as the next regular season started, JVR has continued to look like the player who so often left us wanting more. I'd leverage his potential to trade him now and use his 4+ million cap hit starting next season to help pay someone like Weber.

By the way, a true #1 franchise defenseman is never a luxury. More often that not, it's closer to being a necessity. I don't care if Weber wants the biggest contract ever given to a defenseman. If he plays like he was (and he has the size and talent to do so), he'll be more than worth it.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Lol at saying the value was fair because we all dis-agreed with it. That is very sound logic.
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
What the...?
You guys can scoff all you want, but given your allegiances, I think my statement is much truer than you're able or willing to recognize.

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Originally Posted by JoeFlyer View Post
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick

I took that to mean Schenn or Couturier and Carle or Meszaros, I wouldn't trade away 5 players for 1 and no one would take 5 for 1, the cap they would take would be massive... About $18 if Carle resigned... TBH I didn't even know who Halischuk was... I don't consider that part vital
You would be correct. I sincerely hope people understand what a slash indicates. If those of you *****ing about the value being too much are doing so because you think I mean Schenn AND Couturier and Carle AND Meszaros, then I can't blame you... but that also means you're dumb.

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:11 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.
This is why I am not for trying to get Shea Weber. The one thing this team has going for it right now is their scoring depth and a more than normal amount of decent-but-not-great defense men. With out that they'd be up ****'s creek.

If Pronger's gone, he's gone. Reevaluate as if you never had him. Does overpaying for Shea Weber make sense or make the team better? I don't know, it kind of depends on how the pieces we send Nashville's way turn out, and you're talking about sending two blue chippers. It could still be a good deal if they don't develop to their ceilings, but still... this team was winning a lot of games with out Chris Pronger this year. let's not just pull the trigger as reactionary thing and because we want the shiny new defense men.

I'd stand pat, as it doesn't make sense for the Flyers to pay a fair price for Weber IMO.

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Old
12-18-2011, 03:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
You guys can scoff all you want, but given your allegiances, I think my statement is much truer than you're able or willing to recognize.
So what exactly have you gathered about my allegiances from the grand total of 230 posts I made on this board, counting this one?

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Old
12-18-2011, 04:09 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
So what exactly have you gathered about my allegiances from the grand total of 230 posts I made on this board, counting this one?
Something tells me you're a staunch Flyers fan. Just a wild guess, though.

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Old
12-18-2011, 04:31 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
This is why I am not for trying to get Shea Weber. The one thing this team has going for it right now is their scoring depth and a more than normal amount of decent-but-not-great defense men. With out that they'd be up ****'s creek.

If Pronger's gone, he's gone. Reevaluate as if you never had him. Does overpaying for Shea Weber make sense or make the team better? I don't know, it kind of depends on how the pieces we send Nashville's way turn out, and you're talking about sending two blue chippers. It could still be a good deal if they don't develop to their ceilings, but still... this team was winning a lot of games with out Chris Pronger this year. let's not just pull the trigger as reactionary thing and because we want the shiny new defense men.

I'd stand pat, as it doesn't make sense for the Flyers to pay a fair price for Weber IMO.
I can see the logic to that, even the logic of bringing in a rental on the cheap for the playoff stretch... But my concern is two years down the line and potentially having Coburn and Meszaros as your two main D... That's why I'm in favour of making some bigger deals now. It's better in the long run. In terms of players who I think could play in the top 6 (now or near future) I'd say you've got: Giroux, Briere, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Jagr, JVR, Simmonds, Read and Hartnell. that's 10 for 6 spots thus I think take the hit there and sort the D longer term.

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Old
12-18-2011, 04:46 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by JoeFlyer View Post
I can see the logic to that, even the logic of bringing in a rental on the cheap for the playoff stretch... But my concern is two years down the line and potentially having Coburn and Meszaros as your two main D... That's why I'm in favour of making some bigger deals now. It's better in the long run. In terms of players who I think could play in the top 6 (now or near future) I'd say you've got: Giroux, Briere, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Jagr, JVR, Simmonds, Read and Hartnell. that's 10 for 6 spots thus I think take the hit there and sort the D longer term.
Finally, someone who gets it.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:06 PM
  #108
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And what do you do if Pronger comes back healthy and the cap drops to 51% of HRR, so goes down to $62M next season?

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:19 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
And what do you do if Pronger comes back healthy and the cap drops to 51% of HRR, so goes down to $62M next season?
React accordingly and clear enough cap space to mollify the situation?

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
And what do you do if Pronger comes back healthy and the cap drops to 51% of HRR, so goes down to $62M next season?
Either way we'd be boned.

Most likely the cap will stay the same as the League revenue goes up the player share HHR would drop...

Even if Pronger came back it would be possible to role with Timonen, Pronger and (for example) a $7.5m Weber for a season til Timonens contract is done.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:39 PM
  #111
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Player's share right now is like 57%. If it gets anywhere close to the 50/50 the NFL and NBA contracts are at, you are going to need 10-12% growth this year to get a flat cap. That seems unlikely.

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12-18-2011, 05:41 PM
  #112
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So now you are losing another 2 forwards probably (for nothing), plus the ones you just traded for Weber/whoever. There goes that forward depth.

Flyers need to just sit pat and wait to see how this all plays out. Too much uncertainty with the CBA negotiation and the health of a lot of people to make a good decision.

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Old
12-18-2011, 05:56 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Player's share right now is like 57%. If it gets anywhere close to the 50/50 the NFL and NBA contracts are at, you are going to need 10-12% growth this year to get a flat cap. That seems unlikely.
I would have thought they'd freeze the cap based on growth projections until the % falls nearer to the 50/50 mark rather than lower the cap... Otherwise you case more problems for everyone.

Quote:
So now you are losing another 2 forwards probably (for nothing), plus the ones you just traded for Weber/whoever. There goes that forward depth.

Flyers need to just sit pat and wait to see how this all plays out. Too much uncertainty with the CBA negotiation and the health of a lot of people to make a good decision.
Which 2? I think you can have Hartnell, Giroux, Jagr, Simmonds, Briere, Voracek, Talbot, Couturier and Read as your top 9 still... Trade Bob for a pick, get a 4th line and backup at about $700/800k each...

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Old
12-18-2011, 06:02 PM
  #114
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I would add that I realise there are probably many options but I think that seeing as this was supposed to be a transition season, also seeing that in the long run I do think the D will need revamping, with our injuries and what MIGHT be availible (nearer to deadline day) we should back a big splash this season.

I would just rather not get into a situation where Pronger is done, we lose Carle and then a year later Timonen is gone.

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Old
12-18-2011, 07:38 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Player's share right now is like 57%. If it gets anywhere close to the 50/50 the NFL and NBA contracts are at, you are going to need 10-12% growth this year to get a flat cap. That seems unlikely.
If the share drops there will certainly be a provision for teams to manage their caps through buyouts, renegotiation, incentives, etc. The new CBA will likely be good for the Flyers' cap because they will get an opportunity to mess around with their contracts a little.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:17 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
React accordingly and clear enough cap space to mollify the situation?
That means burying contracts then. The Flyers' hypothetical situation should the cap recede would not be unique, and the number of teams willing to take on salary would be minimal. Very minimal.

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Old
12-19-2011, 09:42 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
And what do you do if Pronger comes back healthy and the cap drops to 51% of HRR, so goes down to $62M next season?
The league will allow for amnesty clauses. There's no way that they're going to change the formula for the cap and not give a golden parachute to teams who would otherwise be royally screwed

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Old
12-19-2011, 10:02 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by JoeFlyer View Post
I can see the logic to that, even the logic of bringing in a rental on the cheap for the playoff stretch... But my concern is two years down the line and potentially having Coburn and Meszaros as your two main D... That's why I'm in favour of making some bigger deals now. It's better in the long run. In terms of players who I think could play in the top 6 (now or near future) I'd say you've got: Giroux, Briere, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Jagr, JVR, Simmonds, Read and Hartnell. that's 10 for 6 spots thus I think take the hit there and sort the D longer term.
I'm not ready at this moment in time to trade away JvR, Read, Voracek, or whomever for a Shea Weber when July 1st I may be able to get a Ryan Suter for money only or even trade for his rights to beat the July 1st rush. Especially considering that Jagr might not even be in the league in 2 years (and there's no guarentee that he'll be with the Flyers past this year), Hartnell will be an UFA and Briere will be a 35 year old player on the decline with 1 year remaining. Those aren't guys I will be counting on when I'm looking at this team long-term.

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Old
12-19-2011, 01:17 PM
  #119
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So what exactly have you gathered about my allegiances from the grand total of 230 posts I made on this board, counting this one?
You're stalking Beef Invictus?

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12-19-2011, 01:46 PM
  #120
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delete, not legit.


Last edited by PhillyFlying: 12-19-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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12-19-2011, 01:57 PM
  #121
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Yea it was posted yesterday, but thread was closed since it wasnt considered a legit source.
right, thanks. haven't been around here in a couple of days. will delete.

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Old
12-19-2011, 03:36 PM
  #122
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You're stalking Beef Invictus?
I think I actually had this avatar first

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12-19-2011, 03:37 PM
  #123
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I understand the point of this forum. Thanks tho. I am being an as s. ill admit it. i just get crazy about trade speculation cause it goes beyond just havin an opinion. it's fantasy land. I'll just stay out of it tho
its simply a question of who would you not give up if the question arose. if snider asked for this trade to go down who would you not give up?



it is not fantasy land about the fact they will be looking for a future #1 D man. this is a real need.

I was just using weber and suter to see it would be hard to give up anyone of value on this roster.

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12-19-2011, 03:54 PM
  #124
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I think I actually had this avatar first
Yeah, I'm stalking you. You need to clean you room, man.

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Old
12-19-2011, 03:55 PM
  #125
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Me thinks they'd want someone proven, more proven then Schenn. I'd say...

JvR + 1st + maybe something else.
Would do it right away. I know I will get heat for this yet again, but JVR is like Carter 2.0. I mean I thought we drafted him high and said it before and everyone got on me for it then I was quieted by his play in the playoffs but idk if he needs a lot of time to develop or if he isn't going to pan out but, with the injury bug and loss of pronger, I don't really care to find out. Trade him for a stud while he has some value.

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