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Old
12-19-2011, 04:51 PM
  #76
pullyoursocksup
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Great work,

Now it would be interesting to see the breakdown from other clubs, just on the drafting who has played in the NHL, I would discount players like Dwight King who only played a dozen or so games, maybe make a minimum of 25 games or something,

But would love to see his drafting record vs Detroit, NJ, Van, or whichever GM's you qualify as good/great GMs.
picks in the nhl

van picks since 2003 (round)
kesler (1)
schneider (1)
edler (2)
hansen (9)
raymond (2)
grabner (1)
hodgson (1)

kings picks since 2003 (round)
brown (1)
boyle (1)
parse (6)
kopitar (1)
quick (3)
bernier (1)
lewis (1)
simmonds (2)
doughty (1)
schenn (1)
clifford (2)

the kings have drafted very well. its the management, and development of the team as a whole thats a problem. the core from those picks is excellent, lombardi should be able to surround those picks with enough players to have a contending team pretty much every year.

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12-19-2011, 05:06 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Thanks sjmay and Ziggy for providing these results. Going through the list, trying to avoid the drafting side of things....

The list of players who IMO didn't pan out for the Kings. Forgive me if I forgot anyone from the trade side of things:

Cloutier
O'sullivan (although was used to get Williams)
Modry
Lundmark
Gauthier
Labarbara
Halpern
Modin
Sturm
Penner



Those that did:

Johnson
Richardson
O'Donnell
Williams
Smyth
Richards

Besides the gift of richards, he gutted all the talent the team had to start the rebuild that got him Johnson and guys like Stoll and Greene (at the high cost of visnovsky).

Overall I'm not impressed at all by his transactions.
Most of the players who didn't pan out weren't brought in to be impact players, but rather to fill a roster spot.

However, the players who were brought in to fill major roles (top 2 D, top 2 C, top line RW) did pan out.

I'd call that a success.

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12-19-2011, 05:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
That's a terrible example...because of the last 5 years only Stamkos has challenged as a number one overall. By your own definition the following players aren't elite because they haven't "challenged for the scoring race"

Tavares
Kane
Erik Johnson
Van Reimsdyk
Toews
Duchene

Maybe they will in a few years, but they need time to develop. To expect players to come out into the NHL at 19-20-21-22 and make a run at a scoring title is LUDICROUS. I aboslutely despise this discussion I swear.

People act like every player who is drafted top 10 should be making huge huge impacts at the NHL RIGHT AWAY. Truth is, of ALL the draft picks each year...only a handful...less then 10...will play the year after they are drafted. We've become so ****ing spoiled with guys like Crosby, or Stamkos, Doughty and the likes...that we expect every player drafted up in the top-5 to have immediate impact...and when they don't OMG BUST OMG BUST HE SUCKS TRADE HIM. People need to get real, every draft year is different, and every player is different. Teams draft based on long term success 99% of the time, not immediate. Granted a player like Stamkos, it's just a bonus because you KNOW he is already going to step in and be an impact player. But for most guys, most regular gifted athletes that get drafted high..they NEED TIME TO DEVELOP. People fail to understand that, and in this impatient rationale they want immediate results. It's stupid, and unrealistic. For ****s sake man..the way people give up on players around here is so ridiculous. I am glad none of you are GMs.

And you want a few non top 5ers that have challenged before? To name only a few

Corey Perry
Martin St. Louis
Jarome Iginla
Brad Richards (3rd round)
Pavel Datsyuk
Marian Hossa
Joe Sakic
Daniel Alfredsson

Want to know how many of these guys were challenging for scoring titels below age 22? None of em except Sakic, who is arguably one of the best players of all time.


This rant wasn't directed at you Pest...but you spurred it on. Just to let you know..not givin it to you or anything...lit the fuse lol
Just to clairfy I wasnt talking about draft picks from the last 5 years. Im talking about guys that have been in the league for a while who were or werent taken in the top 5. I know guys need time to develop and that this generation has been spoiled by the likes of Crosby Stankos Ovechkin etc.

I was just bringing the point that outside the top 5 picks the chances of getting someone whos going to challenge for the top 5 in scoring year in and year out is rare. Of course there will be a guy here and there who does it but a lot of them do it one year and thats it. Of the guys on that list only Sakic, Datsyuk and St. Louis have done it more than once. That itself shows how rare it is for a guy outside the top 5 to consistently be challenging for a top 5 finish.

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12-19-2011, 05:20 PM
  #79
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Would we be in the same spot if we didn't trade Simmonds/Schenn and let Handzus go?

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12-19-2011, 05:26 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Would we be in the same spot if we didn't trade Simmonds/Schenn and let Handzus go?
Yes. Top six guys not scoring is the biggest issue here. DL also neglected bottom six LW (which I have been wanting a player for that spot for years) and a Handzus/Simmonds line would be short a player. Handzus/Simmonds/Schenn talk neglects a foot speed issue that has been a plague on this team since 2006 because the current GM does not believe in adding speedy, skilled forwards who he hasn't already worked with or drafted. The drafted ones not even having made the NHL yet. And it isn't like speedy tweener forwards aren't available, there are many who hit free agency every year.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 12-19-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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12-19-2011, 07:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Just to clairfy I wasnt talking about draft picks from the last 5 years. Im talking about guys that have been in the league for a while who were or werent taken in the top 5. I know guys need time to develop and that this generation has been spoiled by the likes of Crosby Stankos Ovechkin etc.

I was just bringing the point that outside the top 5 picks the chances of getting someone whos going to challenge for the top 5 in scoring year in and year out is rare. Of course there will be a guy here and there who does it but a lot of them do it one year and thats it. Of the guys on that list only Sakic, Datsyuk and St. Louis have done it more than once. That itself shows how rare it is for a guy outside the top 5 to consistently be challenging for a top 5 finish.
I would say Iginla and Alfredsson have been consistently among the top in the NHL in points for periods of time.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Would we be in the same spot if we didn't trade Simmonds/Schenn and let Handzus go?
Short answer: Yes

Long answer: No seriously, YES.

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Old
12-19-2011, 07:42 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I would say Iginla and Alfredsson have been consistently among the top in the NHL in points for periods of time.
Alfredsson only has 3 top 10 finishes and those came in a 4 year period. Iginla has only had 3 with 1 right outside. Iginla is in and out and Alfredsson hasnt been there in a few years.

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12-20-2011, 08:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Maybe 10 years ago yeah but nowadays not so much. Theres only one guy from the Q whos near the top of the goal scoring each year and he happens to be the best player in the game. Outside of that all the top goal scorers seem to be from the OHL, NCAA or Europe with the odd guy from the WHL and the Q in there. Look at the top 10 from last year. 4 from the OHL, 2 from the WHL, 1 from Europe, 2 from the NCAA and 1 from the Q.

2009-10 2 from the Q, 4 from Europe, 1 WHL, 1 OHL and 2 NCAA.
2008-09 0 from the Q, 2 from Europe , 1 WHL, 3 OHL and 4 NCAA.
2007-08 1 from the Q, 6 from Europe, 1 NCAA, 1 WHL 1 OHL.

The Q just doesnt produce goal scorers like it used.
Interesting numbers, thanks Kingspest. That said, I still look at the Q. They may be going through a bit of a funk, but the league is geared towards doing that. Giroux obviously reflects that, and younger players like Sean Couturier and Jonathan Huberdeau are coming around. Every league/country goes through some sort of funk, I'd still be looking hard at the Q. I find it puzzling DL has spent only five picks, or just above 10% on Q players. Without doing the research, that just seems low to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Another item to add concerning Lombardi's view of drafting talent. He has said in the past, that all things being equal between a forward and a defenseman, he is going to take the defenseman because he plays a more important position. That goes in line with what he did in 1998 when he traded down to draft Brad Stuart instead of David Legwand.
I'd do the same thing, draft a D-man first. They are more valueable trading chips, and it's harder replace a good D-man when he retires/gets hurt/gets traded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Alfredsson only has 3 top 10 finishes and those came in a 4 year period. Iginla has only had 3 with 1 right outside. Iginla is in and out and Alfredsson hasnt been there in a few years.
What's your definition of a while. There's not a lot of players who can challenge year in and year out to be a top scorer in the league. And for Iginla, you can debate whether or not he's a contender year aftr year for the point title, but he's been viewed as one of the favorites to win the goal scoring title for the better part of the past 10-12 years. That's a while in my books.

No one is disputing guys drafted top 5 in a draft have a great chance of winning scoring titles, points wise or goals wise, but I think you are trying to hard to make it seem like it's some weird anomoly for someone outside the top 5 to do so. I'd estimate about 70% of the top five spots on an average each year for points, assists and goals will go to a former top five pick, but that still leaves 30% that isn't drafted that high. That's a lot.

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Old
12-20-2011, 11:44 AM
  #85
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Here is the break down of where the top 100 scoring forwards since the NHL lockout trained prior to making it to the NHL:

23 US
18 OHL
14 QMJHL
12 WHL
9 RUS
9 SWE
8 CZE
5 FIN
2 SVK

If you combine the OHL/QMJHL/WHL you have 44 of the top 100 scoring forwards originating from the CHL.
If you combine all of the European countries, then you'd have 33 European trained players on the list.

44 Canadian
33 European
23 US

To delve further into draft position and scoring, here is how many players from each draft position show up on the NHL's top 100 list of scoring forwards since the lockout:

1st Overall: 7
2nd Overall: 6
3rd Overall: 6
4th Overall: 3
5th Overall: 4
6th Overall: 5
7th Overall: 2
8th Overall: 1
10th Overall: 2
11th Overall: 4
12th Overall: 2
13th Overall: 3
15th Overall: 1
16th Overall: 1
17th Overall: 1
19th Overall: 1
20th Overall: 1
21st Overall: 1
22nd Overall: 1
23rd Overall: 2
24th Overall: 3
25th Overall: 1
26th Overall: 1
27th Overall: 1
28th Overall: 2
30th to 40th Overall: 5
41st to 50th Overall: 6
51st to 60th Overall: 3
61st to 70th Overall: 2
71st to 80th Overall: 5
81st to 90th Overall: 2
91st to 100th Overall: 3
100th Overall or later: 8
Undrafted: 4

If you group picks taken within the top 30:
Top 5 Picks: 26
6th to 15th: 20
Later than 15th: 16

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:31 PM
  #86
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Thanks for the breakdown Ziggy. Looks like that illustrates the need to keep the high 1st round picks or to move up whenever possible into the top 6 or 7. If you have a good hockey team, dump the low 1st round picks for as many high 2nd round picks as you can get your hands on.

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12-21-2011, 05:59 AM
  #87
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I have a slight problem with league being a major decision factor when it comes to drafting players. That's why Kopitar was drafted at number 11.

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12-21-2011, 10:01 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
I have a slight problem with league being a major decision factor when it comes to drafting players. That's why Kopitar was drafted at number 11.
I actually consider him as a player trained in Sweden. He had played in the Swedish junior league (and performed quite well) in his draft year.

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12-24-2011, 08:18 PM
  #89
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From 2006 until now, the Kings have drafted only three forwards who have appeared in 100 or more games, two of which remain with the team (Lewis and Clifford) and the only other being Simmonds. The only other player they've drafted who has played in 100 or more games is Drew Doughty.

It doesn't look like there are many options at forward in Manchester to consider NHL ready or any that appear to be destined for the NHL in the near future. Lombardi's done a great job in stockpiling defense and goalie prospects but the quality of the forwards he has drafted/developed pails greatly in comparison.

These are the NHL players, listed by position, that were drafted or signed as prospects by Dean Lombardi (while with the Kings) who are regulars in the NHL:

Trevor Lewis (C/W)
Jonathan Bernier (G)
Wayne Simmonds (RW)
Alec Martinez (D)
Matt Moulson (LW)
Teddy Purcell (W)
Drew Doughty (D)
Slava Voynov (D)
Andrei Loktionov (C)
Kyle Clifford (LW)

That's 10 players since 2006, seven of which are still Kings. I mentioned this in an earlier post and it bears repeating, of the top 30 scoring forwards in the NHL, 20 of them are drafted, five were free agent signings, and five were trade acquisitions. That goes to show you just how difficult it is to acquire top line talent on offense. Should the opportunity arise, just as it did with Mike Richards, the Kings have to pursue it.

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Old
12-25-2011, 12:36 AM
  #90
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A thought just crossed my mind... why DL bashers haven't been crying about Smyth trade to Oilers and Boyle signing with Rangers lately (at least not that much). And of course, no surprise - because they haven't been doing THAT well lately.
Smyth last 12 games: 4 points, 1 goal (with team scoring more than 30 goals in that period)
Boyle this season: 33GP, 2 goals, 6 points, 3.4 Shot%

The double-faced nature of Lombardi bashers (but you can easily generalize this to all sports) is the same as we can see with being on opposite sides in politics, religion,... lack of rational and objective criticism is obvious. I guess there are too many emotions driving us in wrong directions sometimes.

Start of the season:
- How could have DL traded Smyth away, look what he has been doing!
- But, but... he requested the trade and he started last season the same and we needed the cap...
- ... no but, he could have persuaded him to stay or at least got better return for him. Bad Lombardi, bad!

Last week:
- (crickets)

Two days ago:
- How could have Lombardi traded for Smyth? He is old and he can't do anything well! And he had huge cap hit! (I'm too lazy to find this post, but it's not made up)
- But, but... we didn't have cap problems and he played well for us. Not to mention his positive influence on other players....
- ... no but! We gave too much for him and we still don't have good solution for that position today! Bad Lombardi, bad!


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12-25-2011, 12:40 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Lombardi's done a great job in stockpiling defense and goalie prospects but the quality of the forwards he has drafted/developed pails greatly in comparison.
I think this sums it up. Considering the limited number of high draft picks you can't have them all. Lombardi spent more of those draft picks for other positions. Nothing wrong with that decision IMO. After all, I don't think it's THAT hard to fix the forwards situation. We fixed the #2 center situation pretty easily.

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12-25-2011, 12:36 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
I think this sums it up. Considering the limited number of high draft picks you can't have them all. Lombardi spent more of those draft picks for other positions. Nothing wrong with that decision IMO. After all, I don't think it's THAT hard to fix the forwards situation. We fixed the #2 center situation pretty easily.
That and let's see what he does with the upcoming draft as well...

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12-25-2011, 03:15 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
A thought just crossed my mind... why DL bashers haven't been crying about Smyth trade to Oilers and Boyle signing with Rangers lately (at least not that much). And of course, no surprise - because they haven't been doing THAT well lately.
Smyth last 12 games: 4 points, 1 goal (with team scoring more than 30 goals in that period)
Boyle this season: 33GP, 2 goals, 6 points, 3.4 Shot%

The double-faced nature of Lombardi bashers (but you can easily generalize this to all sports) is the same as we can see with being on opposite sides in politics, religion,... lack of rational and objective criticism is obvious. I guess there are too many emotions driving us in wrong directions sometimes.

Start of the season:
- How could have DL traded Smyth away, look what he has been doing!
- But, but... he requested the trade and he started last season the same and we needed the cap...
- ... no but, he could have persuaded him to stay or at least got better return for him. Bad Lombardi, bad!

Last week:
- (crickets)

Two days ago:
- How could have Lombardi traded for Smyth? He is old and he can't do anything well! And he had huge cap hit! (I'm too lazy to find this post, but it's not made up)
- But, but... we didn't have cap problems and he played well for us. Not to mention his positive influence on other players....
- ... no but! We gave too much for him and we still don't have good solution for that position today! Bad Lombardi, bad!

Kings under Lombardi:

Year 1 Black Hole
Year 6 Black Hole

Need I say more?

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12-25-2011, 03:24 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Kings under Lombardi:

Year 1 Black Hole
Year 6 Black Hole

Need I say more?
Actually, yes, yes you do.

For all your piss poor negativity and whining about being in a "black hole" why the hell are you still a fan?

If for 40 years the Kings haven't done anything right in your eyes, and it's a black hole, why continue to cheer, what, do you like the colors? Do you like cheering for things you absolutely hate?

Serious question, why are you still a fan of an organization that does absolutely nothing right in your eyes?

If they do nothing right, and you are a fan, you have to be the most frustrated fan I have ever seen, and frustration breeds anger which breeds hate, so yea, we have a hard time telling which stage of frustration you are at, seems to be the hate part as you think they do nothing right...

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12-25-2011, 03:27 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Kings under Lombardi:

Year 1 Black Hole
Year 6 Black Hole

Need I say more?
Oh by the way,

under Lombardi

Year 1: No starting G, no #1 D, emerging #1 C, no #2 C, no #3 C, no pipeline, no depth in the system, no prospects coming up.

Year 6: Stellar starting G, deepest D in the league where guys can seriously talk about trading a talent like Jack Johnson and not miss a beat, one of the best 1-2-3 down the middle, a great pipeline, good prospects coming up in the system....

Yep, it's the same since year 1...

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12-25-2011, 04:16 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Kings under Lombardi:

Year 1 Black Hole
Year 6 Black Hole

Need I say more?
just curious, since you're a more credible fan than everyone of us. Do you think the kings will make playoffs this year? If not, approximately when do you think they'll get eliminated? Like do you think they're coming up 10th or 11th with no shot at it?

I'm really curious about this.

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12-25-2011, 04:35 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
just curious, since you're a more credible fan than everyone of us. Do you think the kings will make playoffs this year? If not, approximately when do you think they'll get eliminated? Like do you think they're coming up 10th or 11th with no shot at it?

I'm really curious about this.
They don't like making statements like these. It makes them susceptible to objective evaluation of their opinion in the future. It is much safer to just wait, see what happens and then criticize something that has already happened.

Your question is very valid, though, since "black hole" is a pretty strong term for current Kings situation. If this is black hole then I don't know what was the situation with Craig Conroy being our top center and Dan Beachball Cloutier being our starting goalie.

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12-25-2011, 05:10 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
A thought just crossed my mind... why DL bashers haven't been crying about Smyth trade to Oilers and Boyle signing with Rangers lately (at least not that much). And of course, no surprise - because they haven't been doing THAT well lately.
Smyth last 12 games: 4 points, 1 goal (with team scoring more than 30 goals in that period)
Boyle this season: 33GP, 2 goals, 6 points, 3.4 Shot%

The double-faced nature of Lombardi bashers (but you can easily generalize this to all sports) is the same as we can see with being on opposite sides in politics, religion,... lack of rational and objective criticism is obvious. I guess there are too many emotions driving us in wrong directions sometimes.

Start of the season:
- How could have DL traded Smyth away, look what he has been doing!
- But, but... he requested the trade and he started last season the same and we needed the cap...
- ... no but, he could have persuaded him to stay or at least got better return for him. Bad Lombardi, bad!

Last week:
- (crickets)

Two days ago:
- How could have Lombardi traded for Smyth? He is old and he can't do anything well! And he had huge cap hit! (I'm too lazy to find this post, but it's not made up)
- But, but... we didn't have cap problems and he played well for us. Not to mention his positive influence on other players....
- ... no but! We gave too much for him and we still don't have good solution for that position today! Bad Lombardi, bad!

You do know that Smyth has more points than anyone not named Kopitar from the Kings and would be tied with Richards for the team lead in goals right?

In the end you cant really pin that one on Lombardi as Smyth requested a trade, but there were lots of Kings fans that welcomed the Smyth trade, saying that Gagne was better etc... That clearly isnt the case. Lombardi could be questioned on some things but the Smyth trade shouldnt be one of them. He was over a barrel.

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12-25-2011, 05:27 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You do know that Smyth has more points than anyone not named Kopitar from the Kings and would be tied with Richards for the team lead in goals right?

In the end you cant really pin that one on Lombardi as Smyth requested a trade, but there were lots of Kings fans that welcomed the Smyth trade, saying that Gagne was better etc... That clearly isnt the case. Lombardi could be questioned on some things but the Smyth trade shouldnt be one of them. He was over a barrel.
Look up, there's his point.

Smyth did the same thing last year, the problem he is saying is that the naysayers, 2 weeks ago when Smyth was hot as hell were saying, Hey...damn Lombardi traded him....how dare he!!

Now that he has turned as cold as a witch's tit, they don't say a word....

The point isn't how many goals he has or has not scored in total this year....

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12-25-2011, 05:49 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Look up, there's his point.

Smyth did the same thing last year, the problem he is saying is that the naysayers, 2 weeks ago when Smyth was hot as hell were saying, Hey...damn Lombardi traded him....how dare he!!

Now that he has turned as cold as a witch's tit, they don't say a word....

The point isn't how many goals he has or has not scored in total this year....
Points in the last two weeks are worth more?

Ryan Smyth has more goals in the last two weeks than, Kopitar, and is tied in points and goals with Gagne.

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