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Old
12-15-2011, 08:14 AM
  #126
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Whomever knits warm socks.
Good. That takes out everyone except Pure Laine and northern europeans..

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12-15-2011, 08:18 AM
  #127
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The habs don't bury because of cost, nothing to do with principles.
Yeah? How do you know this? Please tell us. Why do you write things like this without any idea it is true?

I would say the Habs don't bury partly because it gives teams a **** rep with FA players. I don't know this is true, but that is the result anyway so I can say it.

It's called having an organization that treats its players well.

And it will pay off.

What you wrote is unsupportable and probably not true.

If Gomer ****s up the rest of this year, they will likely bury him, after giving him every chance for two years. That's smart player and reputation management.

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12-15-2011, 11:23 PM
  #128
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Kaberle

Hi Habs fans! Just wondering how Kaberle is working out for you guys (hopefully well). We've actually been really happy with Spacek, he seems like a great guy and is mentoring our younger players.

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12-15-2011, 11:25 PM
  #129
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Kaberle has actually been surprising in that he has been quite good. He's not awful defensively and has had at least one point in every game with us.

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12-15-2011, 11:26 PM
  #130
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Kaberle has actually been surprising in that he has been quite good. He's not awful defensively and has had at least one point in every game with us.
Good to hear. He was starting to show signs of improvement right before he left.

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12-15-2011, 11:30 PM
  #131
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Kabs is doing great, making clean passes and trying to run a powerplay that has been a total mess for the entire season so far. New coach would help this team out the most though.

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12-15-2011, 11:32 PM
  #132
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Kabs is doing great, making clean passes and trying to run a powerplay that has been a total mess for the entire season so far. New coach would help this team out the most though.
Good. Apparently he showed up to the Canes off season camp in horrible condition so it looks like he is finally getting back to form

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12-15-2011, 11:37 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Yeah? How do you know this? Please tell us. Why do you write things like this without any idea it is true?

I would say the Habs don't bury partly because it gives teams a **** rep with FA players. I don't know this is true, but that is the result anyway so I can say it.

It's called having an organization that treats its players well.

And it will pay off.

What you wrote is unsupportable and probably not true.

If Gomer ****s up the rest of this year, they will likely bury him, after giving him every chance for two years. That's smart player and reputation management.
I agree burying players left and right doesn't look right on the organisation. Still hasn't stopped the Rangers from signing every top free agent out there. Also if we could devellop our young players instead of shiping them out for nothing we wouldn't need to worry about free agency that much.

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12-16-2011, 02:45 PM
  #134
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Actually, that's exactly what you're doing...

As for your point about if the team had more cap awareness, we could have a few more good players.

What's to say that if the Habs had more cap space and acquired more players, that those acquired players, would underachieve just like Cammy, Gionta & Gomez are???

Gomez making 7.3M is not what's hurting the team...what's hurting the team is Gomez makign 7.3M AND while not producing.

Trust me, if Gomez finished the year with 70pts and the Habs won the Cup, you wouldnt care at all that he was overpaid.
Of course I wouldn't complain, he wouldn't be freaking overpaid if he scored 70 pts. There is absolutely zero chance he's going to do either of those things. Sure, Gainey couldn't have known that at the time, but that ship has long sailed and the team is responsible for taking the steps necessary to correct those mistakes.

I am not arguing he be buried in-season. That would be a waste since freeing that cap space serves no practical value in-season. The ONLY reason to demote him right now is if it is an actual hockey reason (IE: He is literally worse than whoever would be recalled from the minors).

However, the onus should be on the team to identify and acquire better players in the offseason and if the opportunity is there to do so at the expense of demoting Gomez next year, then they absolutely should do that. But they won't.

Your argument against me here is arguing my point for me. Gomez isn't overpaid because he makes 7 million, he's overpaid because he's terrible AND makes 7 million. I am not suggesting anything different, and I fail to understand how that distinction somehow excuses the fact that the team factors in his hilarious contract when acquiring players rather than being willing to admit their error, demote him and improve the team should the chance arise.

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12-16-2011, 02:48 PM
  #135
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I'm arguing with you because I don't think you're presenting good arguments. You are cherry picking stats and speculative explanations.
Yeah maybe he should ignore you if he's so uptight about debunking his own theories

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12-16-2011, 02:56 PM
  #136
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look at that... instead of getting all emotional about my "dishonesty", you could have simply corrected my very honest mistake... I was looking up stats from February 8th instead of 18th... got the trade date mixed up in my head


so the laffs were 12-7-4 after moving Kaberle... not quite as impressive as 15-8-6, but still a much better winning % than with him in the lineup.

they were 7-6-1 in the month prior to him getting traded, so again, as much as they were playing better in the new year, their winning % (both overall season, and month-to-month) still shot up after he was removed from the lineup.

And again, you miss the point completely by trying to see things in black & white ("if Kabarle was sooo bad...").

Kaberle on the leafs = top-pairing dman on a team well below .500

Kaberle on the bruins = 5-6 dman on an eventual cup champion


Kaberle is a solid hockey player, he's just not good enough (at this stage in his career, why the decline? i've offered my opinion based on what seems most likely given the little we do know) to be considered a solid top-pairing dman, at least not on a contender.

he's much closer to a MAB, one-dimensional special teams asset, then he is a well-rounded every situation dman.


That makes him overpaid, imo, @ 4.25M$, and it's why it was a bad decisions, imo, to trade for him without getting more in return.

4.25M$ for a one-dimensional player is too much, our management didn't think so either b/c they think he is/will be more than that (mistake imo, and according to other NHL GM's like Chiarelli & Rutherford), or b/c they think adding him is enough of a salve for this team (also a mistake, imo).


you can make it about "hating on kaberle", or "hating on management" if that makes you feel better, but detaching from the emotions might make it easier for you
You neglect the bare bones fact that Kaberle in his career has been an all star caliber offensive d-man capable of putting up even close to 70pts from the back end. That even in a bad season he puts up 45+ points and that MAB would be dreaming to be as good as Kaberle when he's on his game.

Kaberle got that contract because he's been a solid offensive d-man, is he an all around d-man? No. But it is really unfair to compare him to MAB:



That in no way even compares to Kaberle. It's a very unfair comparison. Kaberle is capable of being a plus player he has been before, not often but he was on awful teams to be fair. Give the guy a chance. In 1-2 months post his habs stats and we'll talk.

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12-16-2011, 03:05 PM
  #137
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Good. Apparently he showed up to the Canes off season camp in horrible condition so it looks like he is finally getting back to form
Yeah, he even admitted himself he didn't have the time to train properly this offseason because of the cup celebrations.

Hope the trade works out for both of us. Surprised at Spacek's offensive output so far but he was having a good season defensively before injuries hit. He's not really missed on the ice but he was definitely a great locker room guy and produces some epic interviews.

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Old
12-16-2011, 03:11 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
You neglect the bare bones fact that Kaberle in his career has been an all star caliber offensive d-man capable of putting up even close to 70pts from the back end. That even in a bad season he puts up 45+ points and that MAB would be dreaming to be as good as Kaberle when he's on his game.

Kaberle got that contract because he's been a solid offensive d-man, is he an all around d-man? No. But it is really unfair to compare him to MAB:



That in no way even compares to Kaberle. It's a very unfair comparison. Kaberle is capable of being a plus player he has been before, not often but he was on awful teams to be fair. Give the guy a chance. In 1-2 months post his habs stats and we'll talk.

who isn't "giving the guy a chance"?

Kaberle, the hockey player, has my full support & hope that he is an excellent contributor to our team for as long as he plays here...

Kaberle for Spacek the trade was a bad decision, for the reasons I've outlined above.

I may well be proven wrong, and I honestly hope that I am... but based on what's in front of us, it does not look good.

It was strongly talked about that the Canes were desperate to unload Kaberle, one report (Dreger) even suggesting they'd have packaged a 2nd round pick just to move him (much like the flames did in moving Kotalik).

We traded away an expiring contract... essentially giving the Canes both an adequate replacement AND saving them from the player/contract they were apparently aggressively trying to move.

THAT is why it was a bad decision, first and foremost. That Kaberle's contract also makes our 2012 roster/cap management that much more problematic, is another... but at least in that case there is time for other moves to happen to ensure we aren't stuck watching key players leave b/c we run out of cap room.


Whereas MAB has slowly improved his defensive game (even if only from sub-par AHL-caliber defensively to borderline bottom pairing NHL-caliber defensively), to go along with arguably elite level pp/offensive contributions, Kaberle's "overall" game, which once put him solidly in the top-10 dmen in the league conversation, has been declining very steadily.

what the cause of his decline is, only he can know (and maybe, like Gomez, he has no idea), but he has been declining, and the likelihood of him continuing to decline over the next 2 1/2 years is at least as great, if not greater, than the odds that he suddenly bounces back or at the very least steadies.

that's a lot of risk, and we got no compensation for taking on that risk. Bad decision.


Kaberle, by virtue of his 4.25M$ price tag, will have nothing but "chances" to prove Gauthier right (since the odds of any other team taking him, without us throwing in the extra pick the canes were reportedly offering, are slim).



and by the way, we have another veteran player with a relatively stellar track record, whom people have been trying to argue every year will "bounce back" or "isn't that bad"... yet all he does is continue to prove them wrong #ingomezwetrust

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12-18-2011, 05:41 AM
  #139
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good news: kabs has yet to be held pointless since joining the habs

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12-19-2011, 10:54 PM
  #140
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good news: kabs has yet to be held pointless since joining the habs
i think i jinxed it

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12-19-2011, 11:05 PM
  #141
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Playing great, I can't wait to see him with Markov on the 1st wave of the PP.

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12-19-2011, 11:22 PM
  #142
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This guy needs to be used like one would use Markov. Pair him up and Gorges and ride him. He's our most talented O d-man on hand.

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12-19-2011, 11:32 PM
  #143
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This guy needs to be used like one would use Markov. Pair him up and Gorges and ride him. He's our most talented O d-man on hand.
I agree.
Gorges and PK need to be split up. They form a great shut down pair, but we need to balance out our D more.
So I would put Kaberle with Gorges on the right, and make them the face the top opposition.
Under them, Emelin on the left with PK on the right, and then Campoli-Gill.
Emelin's presence on the left is key. He made our defense look much better, and obviously brought the physical presence, I don't think it's a smart thing to overlook this.

I don't like having a Dman on the 4th line, but I could live with double shifting a forward and dressing 7 Dmen.

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12-19-2011, 11:38 PM
  #144
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I wish he would just shoot! Colse was expecting a rebound not a pass in the crease!!!!!

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12-19-2011, 11:44 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Yeah? How do you know this? Please tell us. Why do you write things like this without any idea it is true?

I would say the Habs don't bury partly because it gives teams a **** rep with FA players. I don't know this is true, but that is the result anyway so I can say it.

It's called having an organization that treats its players well.

And it will pay off.

What you wrote is unsupportable and probably not true.

If Gomer ****s up the rest of this year, they will likely bury him, after giving him every chance for two years. That's smart player and reputation management.
the type of players we should not try to attract are the ones that sign with teams that they think they'll have the least chance of getting buried.

If this even comes into consideration when we're signing a guy, it's a clear indication that we should just pass on that player.

We need winners. Not losers. I don't see how an athlete that defines himself as a winner would sign in Montreal because he knows he won't get shipped if he sucks.

Your whole ideology is backwards.

One reason why a winner is going to sign with Montreal is because he feels this organization is prepared to do what it takes to win.

No offense but the whole theory that it would ruin the reputation of this franchise because we buried a few contracts is a crock of manure.

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12-19-2011, 11:45 PM
  #146
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I agree.
Gorges and PK need to be split up. They form a great shut down pair, but we need to balance out our D more.
So I would put Kaberle with Gorges on the right, and make them the face the top opposition.
Under them, Emelin on the left with PK on the right, and then Campoli-Gill.
Emelin's presence on the left is key. He made our defense look much better, and obviously brought the physical presence, I don't think it's a smart thing to overlook this.

I don't like having a Dman on the 4th line, but I could live with double shifting a forward and dressing 7 Dmen.
This whole "defensive" liability label is ridiculous in the first place. If management took a chance that he'd revert back to his Toronto form, then why not use him in the same role that he had in Toronto? If you paid for a Corvette don't drive it like a Hyundai. You'd have Gorges as an excellent insulator if needed.

I have the exact same pairings as you btw. **** it. Give Emelin top 4 minutes and see what he does with the ball. Emelin/Subs should be an adequate tandem with a chance to surprise.

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Old
12-20-2011, 05:03 AM
  #147
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I agree.
Gorges and PK need to be split up. They form a great shut down pair, but we need to balance out our D more.
So I would put Kaberle with Gorges on the right, and make them the face the top opposition.
Under them, Emelin on the left with PK on the right, and then Campoli-Gill.
Emelin's presence on the left is key. He made our defense look much better, and obviously brought the physical presence, I don't think it's a smart thing to overlook this.

I don't like having a Dman on the 4th line, but I could live with double shifting a forward and dressing 7 Dmen.
You would absolute kill us doing this. Kaberle needs to be insulated.

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12-20-2011, 08:19 AM
  #148
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You would absolute kill us doing this. Kaberle needs to be insulated.
I disagree. Kaberle's poor defensive skills are way over exaggerated. Paired up with our most reliable defensive Dman would help him as well imo.
In any event, I would try it out. We need Emelin playing on the left, so, I don't really care what is done, but I want him on the left.
It's not like our Defense has been spectacular these past couple of games. So mix it up, you never know what could work.

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12-20-2011, 08:24 AM
  #149
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I disagree. Kaberle's poor defensive skills are way over exaggerated. Paired up with our most reliable defensive Dman would help him as well imo.
In any event, I would try it out. We need Emelin playing on the left, so, I don't really care what is done, but I want him on the left.
It's not like our Defense has been spectacular these past couple of games. So mix it up, you never know what could work.
True, nothing is clicking now anyways, but i'm actually fine with that. Hopefully if we keep sliding in the downwards direction this team will receive and overhaul from top to bottom. I'm not convinced this group is close to good enough, even healthy, and lately they seem to be running a circus instead of a hockey club.

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12-20-2011, 08:28 AM
  #150
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Kaberle was a strong add to our lineup, and it shouldn't be questioned wether we should use him often.

Kaberle-Gorges
Emelin-Subban
Gill-Campoli

We have good pieces, I am sure of it

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