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#32|Dec. 19, 2011|Flyers at Avalanche |9:00 p.m. ET

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12-20-2011, 12:07 PM
  #726
GoneFullHolmgren
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Jones - Mistake. No defending.
Leighton - $1.5m a year isn't a great amount and he's spent a lot of that in the minors so who cares? He'd earned a contract, he'd played well with us up until the contract.
Shelley - Mistake, but still not much is it?
Gagne - Played like crap after we sold him, we saved a lot of money there.
Eminger - We didn't trade Carlson for him, we traded a first round pick. Bad trade, but not worth getting so wound up over.
Metropolit and Kukkonen - They both suck so badly it's amusing that you have to resort to using them as an argument.

Shall we start listing all the good things he's done? It'll be amusing listing all the good ones that he was initially criticised for doing too.
I am not denying hes made some good moves. hes had, but some of the bad moves have been brutal. Moves that could of been avoided if he managed the cap better.
Some people just quickly brush off the waiving of depth players. yeah they suck, no big deal.
but because we have some deep playoff runs the moves have been "ok". Probably safe to say we could of used some of those draft picks hes given away in salary cap dumps.
but whatever we have beaten this dead horse around here for far too long.

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12-20-2011, 12:10 PM
  #727
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harry z sat for the rest of the second period (around 2:30 was left) and resumed playing in the 3rd

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12-20-2011, 12:27 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Shall we start listing all the good things he's done? It'll be amusing listing all the good ones that he was initially criticised for doing too.
Not even worth listing. Most people all here will chalk them up to dumb luck or say they don't excuse the horrible moves that have clearly ruined this franchise. They haven't even been to the Cup Finals in two years! What an embarrassment!

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12-20-2011, 12:33 PM
  #729
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Not even worth listing. Most people all here will chalk them up to dumb luck or say they don't excuse the horrible moves that have clearly ruined this franchise. They haven't even been to the Cup Finals in two years! What an embarrassment!
As opposed to saying Holmgren is 100% aware of every GMs intentions at all times, and that he never ever makes a single mistake?

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12-20-2011, 12:42 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As opposed to saying Holmgren is 100% aware of every GMs intentions at all times, and that he never ever makes a single mistake?
Which is not something I ever said. I assume you are talking about Matt Walker. I find absolutely hilarious that you think I am crazy and blindly defending Holmgren because I think he spoke with other GMs and knows the value of his players because he is the GM. That scenario is ridiculous and I am a fool for thinking it. However, you thinking that he has no idea what is going on is more plausible because you don't think it is worth the risk. You, the guy who reads hockey blogs and posts on message boards. You have your finger on the pulse of the league not the GM because one time three or four years ago a guy got claimed on re-entry waivers. You should just email Homer a link to Broad Street Hockey whenever there is an impending move coming up, that guy knows more than the GM and so do you because you read his posts.

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12-20-2011, 12:49 PM
  #731
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All of Homer's decisions are justified because the team wins right? Do tell, how many Cups has he won? None? Huh. I guess all his decisions are actually bad, then.

Holmgren got lucky with Walker. As the Jones debacle proved, he doesn't know the intentions of other GMs as well as you think he does.

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12-20-2011, 12:53 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not even worth listing. Most people all here will chalk them up to dumb luck or say they don't excuse the horrible moves that have clearly ruined this franchise. They haven't even been to the Cup Finals in two years! What an embarrassment!
I can only speak for myself but...

no, good moves do NOT excuse bad moves. Just like bad moves do not discount good moves. Every single move, should be judged within the context of that move; nothing more, nothing less.

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12-20-2011, 01:28 PM
  #733
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Found this from back on 12/7/11.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=40325 (Meltzer's article)

"James van Riemsdyk (slight abdominal muscle tear) missed last week's games but is slated to return to the lineup tonight."

Didn't Briere have an abdominal problem a couple years ago that required surgery?

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12-20-2011, 03:05 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
All of Homer's decisions are justified because the team wins right? Do tell, how many Cups has he won? None? Huh. I guess all his decisions are actually bad, then.
Yeah good point.

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Holmgren got lucky with Walker. As the Jones debacle proved, he doesn't know the intentions of other GMs as well as you think he does.
This is probably the most airtight argument I have heard yet. Three years ago a guy got claimed on re-entry waivers means last month Homer doesn't know what he is doing. Does this mean the Flyers are going to score a top defensive prospect by trading an aging veteran with a big salary? That would be awesome. Let me know how that turns out.

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12-20-2011, 03:23 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah good point.



This is probably the most airtight argument I have heard yet. Three years ago a guy got claimed on re-entry waivers means last month Homer doesn't know what he is doing. Does this mean the Flyers are going to score a top defensive prospect by trading an aging veteran with a big salary? That would be awesome. Let me know how that turns out.
There was also the fun incident 3 weeks ago, not 3 years, where he gave away a proven NHL player for nothing "to gauge interest." Yeah, finger on the pulse right there.

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12-20-2011, 03:31 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There was also the fun incident 3 weeks ago, not 3 years, where he gave away a proven NHL player for nothing "to gauge interest." Yeah, finger on the pulse right there.
Yeah you are right. You have some pretty interesting insight on what a GM does. He basically just plays NHL 12 with a real team. Doesn't talk to other staff members or GMs. Doesn't really know the skill or value of players on his team. He just goes to press conferences and gives sound bites and spins a big wheel in his office of who to trade, sign, or release. I like how you ignore the part of that interview where he says:

Quote:
"That's the risk you take," Holmgren said. "It's probably a good move for Andreas. He can go to another team and get an opportunity to work his way into the lineup there. He was having a tough time here for whatever reason. He was good for us for a couple years.
That doesn't mean anything though. And again like I said in the Nodl thread, just because a team claims a player doesn't mean they would have traded anything for him. Unless of course you read it in a blog somewhere. I really wish Homer had the internet. Our team would pretty sick. Nodl AND Upshall! CUP CITY!!!!!!!

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12-20-2011, 03:40 PM
  #737
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Are you aware that hyperbole doesn't count as a counter-argument?

Never have I claimed that Holmgren NEVER talks to GMs, or has no idea what's going on. But because I object to your portrayal of Holmgren as knowing nearly as much as he does about OTHER GM's intentions, you decide that's what I'm saying. Neat. Try again.


Whenever someone backs you into a corner, your immediate response is to take their argument to an extreme to make your position look more plausible, while completely dodging all of their points.

Bottom line: Holmgren had no way of knowing for sure that Walker could clear. Therefore, risking that dead cap space wasn't worth it. Walker's play since being recalled certainly hasn't been worth it either. On top of that, Holmgren didn't know for sure whether someone would have traded for Nodl. Someone traded for Powe, so it stands to reason that someone would have given up at least a low pick for him. Instead, he decided to just throw him up in the air to see if anybody wanted him. Oops, somebody wanted him. The fact that he's routinely competed against himself in trades and deals (Pronger trade...Bryzgalov) also demonstrates that he doesn't have some great, profound sight into the hearts and minds of his competitors.

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12-20-2011, 03:59 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah you are right. You have some pretty interesting insight on what a GM does. He basically just plays NHL 12 with a real team. Doesn't talk to other staff members or GMs. Doesn't really know the skill or value of players on his team. He just goes to press conferences and gives sound bites and spins a big wheel in his office of who to trade, sign, or release. I like how you ignore the part of that interview where he says:



That doesn't mean anything though. And again like I said in the Nodl thread, just because a team claims a player doesn't mean they would have traded anything for him. Unless of course you read it in a blog somewhere. I really wish Homer had the internet. Our team would pretty sick. Nodl AND Upshall! CUP CITY!!!!!!!
I made the same statement in the actual Nodl thread, but the issue here is what Homer said.

Homer literally said he was gauging value. That statement implies he did NOT talk to anybody. You can't refute this.

And please don't spout the reasons behind moving Nodl/waiving him. I get it, and it honestly doesn't bother me at all. The problem is what Homer said. What he said, makes him sound completely retarded, and it appears as if he has no idea how to do his job.

"Let's gauge interest"
Waive him.

"We need to clear a contract. We haven't been able to move him."
Waive him.

One of those is logical. One of those IS a kid playing NHL 12.

Please, Homer, act as if you're a real GM. Don't spout nonsense.

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12-20-2011, 04:12 PM
  #739
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Hey guys, how about getting this book that just came out for Christmas? It should definitely give some more backing to some of the arguments presented in the thread (and refute others)

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12-20-2011, 05:22 PM
  #740
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In short, the end justifies the means. We have a fantastic team and all of Holmgren's 'diabolical' moves haven't even come close to derailing us.

It does seem that he does one major good move and one minor bad one and they somehow seem to cancel each other out.

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12-20-2011, 05:50 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Homer literally said he was gauging value. That statement implies he did NOT talk to anybody. You can't refute this.
And this statement truly means very little. None of us have any insight on what actually may have happened. It may have gone down just like he said, or something different.

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12-20-2011, 06:10 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Homer literally said he was gauging value. That statement implies he did NOT talk to anybody. You can't refute this.
I'm not arguing any side here, but his statement implies no such thing, unless you're using the term "implies" very loosely, i.e. incorrectly.

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12-20-2011, 06:43 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Are you aware that hyperbole doesn't count as a counter-argument?
It's all I've got left when you refuse to acknowledge reality.

Quote:
Never have I claimed that Holmgren NEVER talks to GMs, or has no idea what's going on. But because I object to your portrayal of Holmgren as knowing nearly as much as he does about OTHER GM's intentions, you decide that's what I'm saying. Neat. Try again.
No you never used those exact words, but when you argue with me when I say he does talk to other GMs and have an idea of his player's value and what the rest of the league needs/wants (especially better than we know), what am I supposed to think? I say he talks to other GMs and has useful information on the situation, you say he doesn't. Not sure what else I could infer from that, other than you don't think he has better information than we have.


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Whenever someone backs you into a corner, your immediate response is to take their argument to an extreme to make your position look more plausible, while completely dodging all of their points.
Not really backed into a corner here. You said he got lucky with Walker, I say that because he is the GM and it is his job to know what is going on he maybe knew what was going on. Damn, that is backed up into a corner. How could I think that when it is so clear that he doesn't know what is going on because three years ago Randy Jones got claimed.

Quote:
Bottom line: Holmgren had no way of knowing for sure that Walker could clear. Therefore, risking that dead cap space wasn't worth it. Walker's play since being recalled certainly hasn't been worth it either. On top of that, Holmgren didn't know for sure whether someone would have traded for Nodl. Someone traded for Powe, so it stands to reason that someone would have given up at least a low pick for him. Instead, he decided to just throw him up in the air to see if anybody wanted him. Oops, somebody wanted him. The fact that he's routinely competed against himself in trades and deals (Pronger trade...Bryzgalov) also demonstrates that he doesn't have some great, profound sight into the hearts and minds of his competitors.
I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make. My point from the beginning of this entire situation has been this: It seems like a risk to you because you are uninformed. I know you think you are informed because you post on here and read Broad Street Hockey, but Homer still knows more than you. If Homer had some information about the interest in Walker, maybe it wasn't a risk. The fact that he cleared has to at least lend some credence to that, no? I mean, you can't sit there and say you have even the same amount of info/experience as Homer, let alone more. Yet it is more likely that he didn't know what was going on and you did and was as big a risk as you thought. Come on, man. You have to see how silly that is. Right? Am I the only one who sees this? Despite what people think, he still is a professional. He talks to other GMs. He has a staff of people telling him what is going on. Walker cleared. But it was still way tooooooo risky because Eklund said so. Gimme a break.

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12-20-2011, 07:24 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
In short, the end justifies the means. We have a fantastic team and all of Holmgren's 'diabolical' moves haven't even come close to derailing us.

It does seem that he does one major good move and one minor bad one and they somehow seem to cancel each other out.
The end justifies the means so long as the end itself is justified... Thats actually how the quote goes and is also, therefore, its correct expression

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12-20-2011, 07:36 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
And this statement truly means very little. None of us have any insight on what actually may have happened. It may have gone down just like he said, or something different.
What do you mean "just like he said"? What he said was that he was gauging value; and that doesn't make any sense. That's all my issue is here.

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I'm not arguing any side here, but his statement implies no such thing, unless you're using the term "implies" very loosely, i.e. incorrectly.
Perhaps it is a bit strong, but I stand behind my sentiment. When you think of "gauging interest" what do you think of? If you tell me a GM was gauging interest, I would take that to mean, that he reached out to his usual suspects via his usual means to see if there were any nibbles. Is that a far fetched statement?

If he then claims that he, instead, waived somebody so that he can "gauge interest"; what am I to think other than he did NOT do his due dilligence, and instead he decided to dangle somebody out there for nothing, to see if there was interest?

It just simply doesn't make sense. The statement is dumb. Again, I MORE than understand the rationale behind waiving a guy like Nodl; but don't spew BS at me. Don't tell me you were "gauging interest". Nobody waives a player to gauge interest! Just tell me you had to lose a contract, and you wanted to give Nodl a shot somewhere. That is probably the truth. Stop talking nonsense for the sake of simply saying SOMETHING.

Perhaps I'm a stickler for facts but we can only go by what we are told; and straight from the horses mouth, we were given the "reason" for waiving Nodl; and it is retarded.

To stick with the NHL 12 analogy; even a teenager playing NHL 12 "gauges interest" and sees if he can get a draft pick before he waives somebody. Nobody waives anybody and claims that was gauging interest.

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12-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #746
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The NHL did switch the tying goal to Briere from Simmonds.

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