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Old
12-21-2011, 01:22 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Henrik Lundqvist makes mediocre defenseman look phenomenal. The real heroes are Henrik, Girardi, MCD and MDZ. those 4 are the reason this team is where its at. MDZ taking the single biggest giant leap forward in defensive play that I have ever seen from a defensive prospect, and MCD and Girardi establishing themselves as legitimate #1 defensemen....add in Staal and you have 3 true #1 defenseman on this team (imho)
Bingo. I don't buy into the Joe Michelletti/Sam Rosen Kool Aid. There's a reason why these guys were/are on the trash heap.

And then they magically become competent NHL defenseman when they join the Rangers? Who happen to have (surprise surprise) a Vezina-caliber goalie between the pipes?

Nope. No thanks. Not buying it.

Woywitka and Eminger are 5th and 6th defensemen who are the last guys a coach of a contending team wants on the ice in a crucial situation. We have already seem games decided because of their mishaps.

People need to stop sugarcoating these guys. When Staal and Sauer come back and Erixon gets a longer look, guys like Eminger, Stralman, Woywitka and yes, even Bickel are friggin redundant.

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12-21-2011, 01:29 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Bingo. I don't buy into the Joe Michelletti/Sam Rosen Kool Aid. There's a reason why these guys were/are on the trash heap.

And then they magically become competent NHL defenseman when they join the Rangers? Who happen to have (surprise surprise) a Vezina-caliber goalie between the pipes?

Nope. No thanks. Not buying it.

Woywitka and Eminger are 5th and 6th defensemen who are the last guys a coach of a contending team wants on the ice in a crucial situation. We have already seem games decided because of their mishaps.

People need to stop sugarcoating these guys. When Staal and Sauer come back and Erixon gets a longer look, guys like Eminger, Stralman, Woywitka and yes, even Bickel are friggin redundant.
Hard to say. While Lundqvist certainly could help any defenseman's +/-/GA/etc, he isn't going to change the perception of their play for those who are watching those players. Eminger had stepped up nicely before his injury. Woywitka was Woywitka (7th/8th defenseman), Stralman continues to look like a highly inconsistent 3rd pairing defenseman, etc. Bickel was good tonight, but I'm sure a couple more games will have him looking more like the 6/7/AHL defenseman he is (not to take anything away from what he's done with the organization so far). Those were my perceptions prior, and they're still my perceptions now.

With that said, I don't want any of those players near the NHL blueline when the playoffs roll around. Eminger I'd be okay with having, the rest? Chuck 'em. Sign another 18-20 minute defenseman in the offseason, bring Erixon along, and watch the defenseman take off. I'd still keep some extra defenseman around in case of a repeat of a current situation, but if our defense looks like it does now in the playoffs past the first 3 or 4 defenseman, we won't go anywhere.

Lundqvist simply helps keep this team's GA down, even with terrible injuries. He's the best insurance policy in the league. He won't make the team look pretty, but he'll get the job done. And, finally, for the first time in a while, he has a capable team in front of him. No more 1/2 goal ********, this is a team that had the ability to score 3+ goals any given night.

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12-21-2011, 01:39 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Hard to say. While Lundqvist certainly could help any defenseman's +/-/GA/etc, he isn't going to change the perception of their play for those who are watching those players. Eminger had stepped up nicely before his injury. Woywitka was Woywitka (7th/8th defenseman), Stralman continues to look like a highly inconsistent 3rd pairing defenseman, etc. Bickel was good tonight, but I'm sure a couple more games will have him looking more like the 6/7/AHL defenseman he is (not to take anything away from what he's done with the organization so far). Those were my perceptions prior, and they're still my perceptions now.

With that said, I don't want any of those players near the NHL blueline when the playoffs roll around. Eminger I'd be okay with having, the rest? Chuck 'em. Sign another 18-20 minute defenseman in the offseason, bring Erixon along, and watch the defenseman take off. I'd still keep some extra defenseman around in case of a repeat of a current situation, but if our defense looks like it does now in the playoffs past the first 3 or 4 defenseman, we won't go anywhere.

Lundqvist simply helps keep this team's GA down, even with terrible injuries. He's the best insurance policy in the league. He won't make the team look pretty, but he'll get the job done. And, finally, for the first time in a while, he has a capable team in front of him. No more 1/2 goal ********, this is a team that had the ability to score 3+ goals any given night.


Well that's my whole point. These guys wouldnt be playing if the team was healthy.

Imagine this:

Staal-Girardi
Macdonagh-Sauer
Del Zotto-Eminger
Erixon

Out of all those guys:

1) Who are the two pairs for PK?
2) Who are the pointmen for both PP units?
3) Who is drawing the Top Line matchup?
4) Who is on the ice during the last 2 mins of a period?


I can tell you right now that the only guy who won't be out there due to skill level is Eminger. Erixon is certainly being groomed as a Top-4. He's just green right now.

Therefore, Bickel, Woywitka, Stralman, Bell -- they are nobodies who will not be capable of having responsibility in a crucial game.

End of story.

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12-21-2011, 01:40 AM
  #104
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I also want to apologize to Mr. Bickell, since this is his appreciation thread. I do appreciate what he did tonight, and wish him the best of luck and success, and lots of Christmas presents under the tree. I have a habit of being a little curt.

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12-21-2011, 01:42 AM
  #105
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God, that healthy defense is beautiful, especially with MDZ emerging as he has.

If they're all ready to go by the playoffs, this team could do some serious damage with that combo of shutdown defenseman and Lundqvist.

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12-21-2011, 08:05 AM
  #106
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When was the last time a NY Rangers D-Man dropped the gloves to protect a teammate? It was a breath of fresh air when Stu went after Clarkson after his big hit.
I honestly can't remember the last time this happened? I cant freaking wait for the Undertaker.
Torts is aganst Ds fighting. Doesn't want to lose one for 5 min.

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12-21-2011, 08:25 AM
  #107
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I see Bickel as a poor man's Sauer. Big, physical, crease-clearing dman. He's pretty slow, but his defensive positioning and strength along the boards looked good last night. Seems like a good #7 guy, someone you put into the lineup when you know the game is going to be physical and nasty.

I think people are going overboard with the Woywitka criticism. The guy has been pretty solid defensively, minus one huge gaffe that cost us a game. Still not a guy that I want to see in the lineup when we get healthy, though.

For my money, Stralman has been far worse. He has the strength of a pre-pubescent boy, and gets burned by speed regularly, neither of which I like to see in a dman on my team. He has played well for what he is, but I just don't think he fits into our defensive scheme. He takes way too many risks, but doesn't have the strength or footspeed to cover up his defensive lapses.

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12-21-2011, 09:05 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Bingo. I don't buy into the Joe Michelletti/Sam Rosen Kool Aid. There's a reason why these guys were/are on the trash heap.

And then they magically become competent NHL defenseman when they join the Rangers? Who happen to have (surprise surprise) a Vezina-caliber goalie between the pipes?

Nope. No thanks. Not buying it.

Woywitka and Eminger are 5th and 6th defensemen who are the last guys a coach of a contending team wants on the ice in a crucial situation. We have already seem games decided because of their mishaps.

People need to stop sugarcoating these guys. When Staal and Sauer come back and Erixon gets a longer look, guys like Eminger, Stralman, Woywitka and yes, even Bickel are friggin redundant.
Agreed. Hank is our best defenseman.

But the black aces in the D corps are playing well. They've been decent positionally, made some smart plays and given Hank a pretty clear view of the puck.

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12-21-2011, 09:11 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
God, that healthy defense is beautiful, especially with MDZ emerging as he has.

If they're all ready to go by the playoffs, this team could do some serious damage with that combo of shutdown defenseman and Lundqvist.
That's a pretty big key right there.

I'd love to enter the post season w/ a healthy D corps combined with 12 forwards with good chemistry. All backed up by rested and healthy Hank.

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12-21-2011, 09:50 AM
  #110
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Torts likes Stu

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/hoc...e-in-nhl-debut

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12-21-2011, 01:31 PM
  #111
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all it takes is one bad turnover here...

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12-21-2011, 01:47 PM
  #112
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Lundqvist IMO, is one of the few goalies in the NHL that could survive with a mediocre defense. We've seen it before. This year he finally has an elite D and look what he and Biron are doing. I agree with that he's our best defenseman and he does make some guys look better than they are.

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12-21-2011, 02:19 PM
  #113
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IMO, the trashing of the substitutes is overboard. They have filled in admirably, and I am thrilled with what they have done. Bickell was fine last night, and his story is a nice one even if that is it for him as a Ranger. MDZ has been a revelation. he is our most physical d-man most nights. He can still move the puck. These guys have all put in honest efforts and have done well. Good for them, and good for us.

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12-21-2011, 02:22 PM
  #114
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12-21-2011, 03:09 PM
  #115
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Lundqvist IMO, is one of the few goalies in the NHL that could survive with a mediocre defense. We've seen it before. This year he finally has an elite D and look what he and Biron are doing. I agree with that he's our best defenseman and he does make some guys look better than they are.
Yeah, up to the point that some fans call our quite okay D an "Elite D" . Elite defence do not allow over 30 SOG.

I am not bashing our defense. Hank finally plays the way I wanted him to play for the last 5 years when this board called all kind of names to my critique. So I do not buy a "Lundqvist has always been good and now D plays well in front of him" argument. I am not saying that we will see the same result over and over should our defense be completed entirely from Wales, but you've got my point.


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12-21-2011, 03:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Bingo. I don't buy into the Joe Michelletti/Sam Rosen Kool Aid. There's a reason why these guys were/are on the trash heap.

And then they magically become competent NHL defenseman when they join the Rangers? Who happen to have (surprise surprise) a Vezina-caliber goalie between the pipes?

Nope. No thanks. Not buying it.

Woywitka and Eminger are 5th and 6th defensemen who are the last guys a coach of a contending team wants on the ice in a crucial situation. We have already seem games decided because of their mishaps.

People need to stop sugarcoating these guys. When Staal and Sauer come back and Erixon gets a longer look, guys like Eminger, Stralman, Woywitka and yes, even Bickel are friggin redundant.
Its not bingo.

Henrik will limit the goals against, he wont be out of his crease forcing attackers to the outside, blocking shots, containing...

Its absurd to say Henrik "makes" any defenseman "look" like anything.

The defense corp as a whole has been fantastic.

Its a relationship.

They limit the scoring opportunities, and Henrik limits the goals against, and backs up his defensemen when they make a mistake.

If a defenseman is shoddy, it will be obvious. If they make a mistake it will be obvious. Henrik can't cover that up.

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12-21-2011, 03:55 PM
  #117
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Yeah, up to the point that some fans call our quite okay D an "Elite D" . Elite defence do not allow over 30 SOG.

I am not bashing our defense. Hank finally plays the way I wanted him to play for the last 5 years when this board called all kind of names to my critique. So I do not buy a "Lundqvist has always been good and now D plays well in front of him" argument. I am not saying that we will see the same result over and over should our defense be completed entirely from Wales, but you've got my point.
Boston has a pretty elite blue line led by Chara and they regularly give up 30-40 SOG a game. FORTY. Detroit hovers around 30 SOGA per game too. I would put Pittsburgh in that boat too. 30 is pretty normal. I think it's the number of quality chances you need to track. I case may be dug up there.

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12-21-2011, 03:56 PM
  #118
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Bickel is a good guy. He can play in the NHL in a limited role and he is a good teammate. You do not treat guys like him like ****. Just a good guy to have around

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12-21-2011, 04:02 PM
  #119
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He played alright. But its 1 game.

Mitchell looked great his first 3-4 games now has slowly turned back into that fridge player that will likely be getting sent down in the next week when Wolski is ready.

Bickel is a dime a dozen player, like Mitchell. I usually don't get overly excited in them. I'm just glad we have the depth to call players like them up in injuries situations and they can step in and play an NHL shift without me covering my eyes.

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12-21-2011, 04:25 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Its not bingo.

Henrik will limit the goals against, he wont be out of his crease forcing attackers to the outside, blocking shots, containing...

Its absurd to say Henrik "makes" any defenseman "look" like anything.

The defense corp as a whole has been fantastic.

Its a relationship.

They limit the scoring opportunities, and Henrik limits the goals against, and backs up his defensemen when they make a mistake.

If a defenseman is shoddy, it will be obvious. If they make a mistake it will be obvious. Henrik can't cover that up.
yes he will..nobody remembers the saves that Henrik makes unless its a mind blowing HOLY CRAP save....the fact that he turns aside 93.4% of the shots he faces makes the D in front of him look better than it really is. This team allows 3 shots per game more than they take, and yet they have the 2nd best goal differential in the East behind Boston. Why is that? Henrik Lundqvist (and Biron). The Rangers shooters arent anything special where they make every shot on goal count, if anything they shoot for rebounds more than shooting for goals.

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12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #121
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all it takes is one bad turnover here...
Exactly. They are all ticking time bombs, especially with Torts as a coach with a short whip.

Staal and Macdonagh made putrid, horrid turnovers that probably cost us the Caps series last year, but you can sorta live with it because of of all the other things they do well.

I just cant say the same for the backups because I havent seen them do anything well.

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12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Bingo. I don't buy into the Joe Michelletti/Sam Rosen Kool Aid. There's a reason why these guys were/are on the trash heap.

And then they magically become competent NHL defenseman when they join the Rangers? Who happen to have (surprise surprise) a Vezina-caliber goalie between the pipes?

Nope. No thanks. Not buying it.

Woywitka and Eminger are 5th and 6th defensemen who are the last guys a coach of a contending team wants on the ice in a crucial situation. We have already seem games decided because of their mishaps.

People need to stop sugarcoating these guys. When Staal and Sauer come back and Erixon gets a longer look, guys like Eminger, Stralman, Woywitka and yes, even Bickel are friggin redundant.

That's ridiculous.

Bickel played a strong game last night and that's to his credit. You can't take that away from him, just because you mindlessly choose to.

Everyone knows hockey is a team game and team's who function as well-oiled, complete units; are the teams that have good success. That means every player plays his role and gets credit for the good stuff and takes some responsibility for the bad stuff.

Lundqvist wasn't in the corner battling along side Bickel and winning those battles. Bickel was. Neither was Girardi. Lundqvist did his job when the shots got through and he made tremendous saves. That's to Lundqvist's credit.

Same goes for Woywitka and Eminger.

Those two have played well for the Rangers and depsite making some mistakes here and there (as ALL Defensemen do), they have also had games where their good play contributed greatly to the Rangers winning. To claim otherwise is foolish and naive.


And despite what some of you people think, all teams, no matter how good, will give up shots, give up high quality chances and will get scored on. That's the nature of the game. And even the best of players in this league make mistakes and have mishaps that lose the game.

Furthermore, Lundqvist, Girardi, MDZ and MCD have each had their own share of mishaps that cost the team a goal against or can easily and legitimately be said to have cost the Rangers the game. Not just this season, but every season.

To take this nonsense mentality that the Bickels/Emingers/Woywitkas of the Rangers hockey world are "nobodies" and that they get no credit for the positive outcomes and only get blame for the negative outcomes, is childish and downright goofy.

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12-21-2011, 04:46 PM
  #123
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That's ridiculous.

Bickel played a strong game last night and that's to his credit. You can't take that away from him, just because you mindlessly choose to.

Everyone knows hockey is a team game and team's who function as well-oiled, complete units; are the teams that have good success. That means every player plays his role and gets credit for the good stuff and takes some responsibility for the bad stuff.

Lundqvist wasn't in the corner battling along side Bickel and winning those battles. Bickel was. Neither was Girardi. Lundqvist did his job when the shots got through and he made tremendous saves. That's to Lundqvist's credit.

Same goes for Woywitka and Eminger.

Those two have played well for the Rangers and depsite making some mistakes here and there (as ALL Defensemen do), they have also had games where their good play contributed greatly to the Rangers winning. To claim otherwise is foolish and naive.


And despite what some of you people think, all teams, no matter how good, will give up shots, give up high quality chances and will get scored on. That's the nature of the game. And even the best of players in this league make mistakes and have mishaps that lose the game.

Furthermore, Lundqvist, Girardi, MDZ and MCD have each had their own share of mishaps that cost the team a goal against or can easily and legitimately be said to have cost the Rangers the game. Not just this season, but every season.

To take this nonsense mentality that the Bickels/Emingers/Woywitkas of the Rangers hockey world are "nobodies" and that they get no credit for the positive outcomes and only get blame for the negative outcomes, is childish and downright goofy.

Typical homer mentality. We're not allowed to criticize the waiver-wire/tryout guys tonight because we won. OK. I see how it goes. Let's praise the 10-min a night guys for not costing us a point or two.

Let me guess? You though Stralman was "strong" too? Or how about Woywitka and his 7 mins a game?

Funny, I didnt see you post this on a night the team lost.

This thread is hilarious. These guys are 10th and 11th defensemen in reality, and you're making them out to be key cogs for the team.

A joke. A big, big Joke.

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12-21-2011, 05:02 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Typical homer mentality. We're not allowed to criticize the waiver-wire/tryout guys tonight because we won. OK. I see how it goes. Let's praise the 10-min a night guys for not costing us a point or two.

Let me guess? You though Stralman was "strong" too? Or how about Woywitka and his 7 mins a game?

Funny, I didnt see you post this on a night the team lost.

This thread is hilarious. These guys are 10th and 11th defensemen in reality, and you're making them out to be key cogs for the team.

A joke. A big, big Joke.
There is nothing wrong with giving a guys props when he deserves it. If you watched the game last night, Bickell did everything that was asked of him. I expected him to get blown by on numerous opportunities and cough the puck up a few times, but he didn't.

I'm not saying hes a solid 6th D man right now, but he played absolutely fine last night and he deserves some credit. In no way shape or form is that "homerism" from anyone unless they think he is going to stick with the team. He played fine, give the guy some respect.

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12-21-2011, 05:17 PM
  #125
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Why is this a 'Woywitka Free Zone'? I have been very happy with the whole team, and he has been a part of it. I dont get the hate. Its a team game and the team has been, more-or-less, great. Obviously some guys pull more weight, but i think torts has done a nice job keeping most everyone in situations where they can excel.

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