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Old
12-21-2011, 11:59 AM
  #76
IceDaddy
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
No, i'm dead serious...I swear, the only time people notice PK Subban is either if he scores a goal or makes a mistakes.

Nevermind anything in between that he does extremely well...

Like it or not, but a player like Subban who does so much is going to make mistakes...it's well worth the trade-off IMO.
+1

The guy is a Stud and need to get more credit for the defensive job he has done. Sure he could beef up his offense and cut down on the mistakes in his own end but, what 2nd year NHL doesnt make mistakes?

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Old
12-21-2011, 11:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
The problem is that he's making a ton of mistakes, and those are very noticeable. If he doesn't sit, he should have his minutes cut. He's a liability with his current play and icetime.
Wrong, he's not making a ton of mistakes...he's just made costly one's, that tend to inflate the number of mistakes he has made.

The team leans on Subban quite a bit, he does A LOT of things for the Habs which have taken away from his ability to record more points (which is how the average fan ultimately values him).

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12-21-2011, 12:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed on this assesment of the defense right now...he'll have to bump Gill out of the lineup.

Also agree regarding Subban...I have to seriously wonder what game people are watching to want to have Subban benched???
That's because they don't know what to watch. Even Houde and Denis don't even mention the subtle nice plays of PK, so I don't expect most fans to see them either.
You can be sure as hell that the mistake will be pointed out when PK commits one though.

His ability to contently move the puck around the boards despite the pressure is really what impresses me the most. I'm never scared that PK will lose a board battle.

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Old
12-21-2011, 12:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
+1

The guy is a Stud and need to get more credit for the defensive job he has done. Sure he could beef up his offense and cut down on the mistakes in his own end but, what 2nd year NHL doesnt make mistakes?
I agree.

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Old
12-21-2011, 12:07 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Wrong, he's not making a ton of mistakes...he's just made costly one's, that tend to inflate the number of mistakes he has made.

The team leans on Subban quite a bit, he does A LOT of things for the Habs which have taken away from his ability to record more points (which is how the average fan ultimately values him).
Sure he's good. But to ignore his errors is to be an apologist. The types of errors he makes are unforced errors where he makes a tape to tape pass onto an opponent's stick.

Worth the trade off? Okay sure. And I also have no problem letting him work through those mistakes. That's what we should be doing with him.

But let's not pretend like these errors don't exist. He's made some very boneheaded plays that have resulted in unforced scoring chances and those are the types of mistakes that people are talking about.

I have no doubt he'll improve though. And to see PK's name popping up in trade suggestions right now is really crazy in my opinion.

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12-21-2011, 12:12 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
You're kidding, right?
Subban has been great defensively. Everyone has been ripping on him, but he's been very good. When he makes mistakes, they're obvious ones, but he carries quite a load back there.

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Old
12-21-2011, 12:17 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed that Campoli hasn't looked any better than Emelin has on the right side...however, he does bring an element of puck movement and presence on the
2nd PP unit, which is why he's in the lineup.

Again, there's nothing wrong with Emelin sitting right now...he hasn't exactly earned more playing time IMO. He'll just have to continue to work hard in practice and when he does get his shot, play well enough to deserve staying in the lineup.

But aside from moving Gorges back over to the right side or sitting Gill out...it'll be tough for him to get in.
I think you're missing the point of why he should be in the lineup. He's the only one with a physical presence, the only one which would make an opponent think twice about cutting to the net. None of our Dmen do that. They're all in a similar mold, Weber, Diaz, Kaberle, Campoli, Subban, all puck moving Dmen. There's no need to have 5 similar defensemen playing at the same time. And appart from Subban, they're all pretty soft.

Emelin brings intimidation, which non of our D bring.... at all. Anyway that is my take on it. He doesn't necessarily play better than any of them, but he does bring something new, that we desperately need.

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Old
12-21-2011, 12:58 PM
  #83
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Why change the lineup everything is going so well ?

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:01 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by AHMB Prez View Post
Why change the lineup everything is going so well ?
+1
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:17 PM
  #85
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This is ****ing ridiculous.

I just hope he doesn't go back to Russia. That would seriously suck.

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12-21-2011, 01:18 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ejaculine View Post
I think you're missing the point of why he should be in the lineup. He's the only one with a physical presence, the only one which would make an opponent think twice about cutting to the net. None of our Dmen do that. They're all in a similar mold, Weber, Diaz, Kaberle, Campoli, Subban, all puck moving Dmen. There's no need to have 5 similar defensemen playing at the same time. And appart from Subban, they're all pretty soft.

Emelin brings intimidation, which non of our D bring.... at all. Anyway that is my take on it. He doesn't necessarily play better than any of them, but he does bring something new, that we desperately need.
No, I get the gist of why everyone wants him in the lineup... His hits excite fans and it's assumed it means he's playing well.

I don't particularily think he's been very good except for a handful of games, he's struggled a lot more than he's played well.

That's not to say that I think he's garbage, I think he's got an excellent future...I just don't agree with the sentiment that he's being mistreated. He's the teams #7 dman right now and I think that's a fairly accurate reflection of his play so far, it could be argued he should play before Gill, but I understand why Gill is in the lineup every night.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:19 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejaculine View Post
I think you're missing the point of why he should be in the lineup. He's the only one with a physical presence, the only one which would make an opponent think twice about cutting to the net. None of our Dmen do that. They're all in a similar mold, Weber, Diaz, Kaberle, Campoli, Subban, all puck moving Dmen. There's no need to have 5 similar defensemen playing at the same time. And appart from Subban, they're all pretty soft.

Emelin brings intimidation, which non of our D bring.... at all. Anyway that is my take on it. He doesn't necessarily play better than any of them, but he does bring something new, that we desperately need.
He's also a young defenseman that we've gone after for years who is finally here and we're benching him.
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
This is ****ing ridiculous.

I just hope he doesn't go back to Russia. That would seriously suck.
It would suck. It would also suck if we lost Josh Georges...

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:43 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
The problem is that he's making a ton of mistakes, and those are very noticeable. If he doesn't sit, he should have his minutes cut. He's a liability with his current play and icetime. Not saying he should be perma-scratched, but it could serve as a wakeup call.
He doesn't make a ton of mistakes. In fact he more often than not has a higher ratio of "good plays" : "bad plays/mistakes" than anyone else on the team let alone defenseman. It's only because

1) He's PK
2) Fans need to blame somebody
3) He isn't producing as well offensively as he did the 2nd half last year...

This team would be in dead last if it weren't for PK.How one of the biggest Gomez supporters on this site (you) could have such a favorable opinion of Gomer but negative opinion of Subban is laughable to say the least.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:48 PM
  #89
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Our stud offensive dman with a laser shot has lost his shot and is turning into an average defensive dman who makes a bunch of mistakes. What is not to like about that?

The powerplay alone will ruin the entire season but atleast PK's +/- is slightly better, because that is the important thing.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:50 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Sure he's good. But to ignore his errors is to be an apologist. The types of errors he makes are unforced errors where he makes a tape to tape pass onto an opponent's stick.

Worth the trade off? Okay sure. And I also have no problem letting him work through those mistakes. That's what we should be doing with him.

But let's not pretend like these errors don't exist. He's made some very boneheaded plays that have resulted in unforced scoring chances and those are the types of mistakes that people are talking about.

I have no doubt he'll improve though. And to see PK's name popping up in trade suggestions right now is really crazy in my opinion.
Referring to one incident where

A) He had the flu
B) It was ONE INCIDENT

Doesn't make it the case all the time like some folks around here love to do. It's hyperbole. He does not make mistakes all the time, he's just criticized anytime he doesn't do something right.

I agree that the error he made that game was unforced however you make it sound like it's the case all the time Most of his mistakes are most certainly forced by a strong forcheck. Yes he has blunders at the offensive blue line now and then, yes he has made a few mistakes like the one you described. All the time though? That's major hyperbole.

And no, having eyes and watching a game and understanding how a player is used, what he does outside of your little g/a/pt column and what good/bad he brings doesn't make me an apologist. It makes me a fan who isn't acting on emotion and raging over the fact that his team isn't winning. I guess somebody has to be blamed, let's blame the guy who has held the team together since day one. Let's blame the guy eating up all the tough minutes against the better opposition, against all opposition quite frankly

You guys are fun for a laugh now and the... "apologist".. is that the best you guys can come up with? Regurgitating some crap from a Gomez thread? It's pathetic the way people use that as if it's a solid argument. Yeah I'm an apologist because unlike some folks I don't blame the star D who has been playing like a #1 just because he's in his 2nd year and makes mistakes

I guess I must be an apologist. You say apologist, I say realist. Wake up. He's a 2nd year D playing 40-50% of the game, normally matched up against the best. He does NOT make mistakes all the time, you guys just rag on him all the time. He does make mistakes however. I can't think of a sophomore player who doesn't make mistakes. But yeah, being realistic about a players development and not getting emotional over a poor team that is losing makes me an apologist simply because I don't blame the one guy making this team sometimes win games

Alright guys, I guess I'm an apologist then.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:50 PM
  #91
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If I was Burke I'd be making an effort to tap up Emelin for Toronto.

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Old
12-21-2011, 01:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Subban has been great defensively. Everyone has been ripping on him, but he's been very good. When he makes mistakes, they're obvious ones, but he carries quite a load back there.
Exactly. I understand some folks are upset about how the team has been playing and I don't blame you.

But saying Subban is constantly making mistakes, should be benched etc makes you out to be the most casual bandwagoner noob fans ever. I may sound like an "apologist" but I'd rather sound like an apologist than a complete tool. It's funny how when Hammer was being over-matched and over-played it was a perfect excuse, even though this guy is a former 1st overall pick NHL veteran two-way D who is solid. But the guy who is a sophomore who also had a slow start offensively last season but who has been a STUD defensively... eating up huge minutes against less than favorable opponents is somehow not afforded the same reasoning playing easily 5+ minutes more a night than this vet, against tougher opposition and with worse players playing with him.

I guess now a days using common sense to discuss a player makes you an apologist though

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12-21-2011, 01:55 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Referring to one incident where

A) He had the flu
B) It was ONE INCIDENT
Dude, with all due respect I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not talking about one incident. What I'm talking about is his tendency to give pucks away with unforced errors. He makes rookie mistakes and as I said above, I can live with that right now. We have to let him make and learn from those kinds of mistakes. Nowhere have I said he should be benched. In fact, I ripped Martin for benching him last year.

I think he's got great potential and he's probably our best defenseman right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot to learn though. And pretending like he doesn't make some brutal mistakes is just silly.

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12-21-2011, 02:06 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Oh I agree with that, I've been impressed by Emelin's puck moving abilities...but I don't think there should be an outrage that he's sitting tonight.

He hasn't exactly been an immovable object from the top 6...he's been a mixed bag so far.
But yet Campoli cost us two games in a row. He's still on the ice. Growing pains are easier to take than mistakes from a player who will never get any better.

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12-21-2011, 02:08 PM
  #95
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Sigh. Emelin can't play the right side.

He'd have to bump off Kaberle (ha!), Gorges (lol), or Gill to make the roster. I think he has to bump Gill off sooner or later, but he cannot bump off Diaz.

He's caught in a numbers game right now.
This gets lost amongst all the whining but is bang on. Emelin did not look good in the few games he had to play on the right side (filling in for Diaz). He's probably getting a crash course on how to play on the right side in practice, but for now Cunney is more comfortable with Diaz on his natural side than Emelin on his wrong side.

The issue will get forced when Markov comes back and becomes the third must-be left defenseman. Kabs, Markov and Gill are all locks on the left, so it has to be the plan to ease Emelin in on the right side, and likely partnered with Markov. I still think Campoli ends up traded when Markov comes back.

Gorges can move to the right side no problem. But to do that now would ruin the only decent pairing we have in Gorges-Subban.

Oh the drama! Cunneyworth ruined the team by benching a rookie! Emelin is leaving for sure because he got benched for a game in December!

I wonder how many people would be claiming that Diaz is going to go back to Europe next year (or mysteriously end up in Boston???) if he was in fact benched for Emelin.

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Old
12-21-2011, 02:12 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
The problem is that he's making a ton of mistakes, and those are very noticeable. If he doesn't sit, he should have his minutes cut. He's a liability with his current play and icetime. Not saying he should be perma-scratched, but it could serve as a wakeup call.
If I remember correctly, the first 2 goals of the bruins game was PK's fault, I think he was a bit sick or something...

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Old
12-21-2011, 02:13 PM
  #97
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But yet Campoli cost us two games in a row. He's still on the ice. Growing pains are easier to take than mistakes from a player who will never get any better.
How did Campoli cost the habs two games in a row? Subban and Moen turned over the puck in the boston game which led to the second and 3rd goal.

Seriously, why lie for.

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Old
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
  #98
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People who tought Cunneyworth would bring change are kidding themselves. It's the JM continuity.

It is becoming VERY CLEAR why Carriere was named an Assistant Coach without any coaching experience.

Gauthier is calling the shots and dictating to Cunneyworth who plays and who sits.

This could also explain the increase in Darche minutes........

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Old
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Also agree regarding Subban...I have to seriously wonder what game people are watching to want to have Subban benched???
I don't think it's watching the game so much as reading/hearing all the stories that he's sucking.

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12-21-2011, 02:32 PM
  #100
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This could also explain the increase in Darche minutes........
No it doesn't.

If Martin was consistent about one team it was that fourth-liners didn't get to play much. People whine about Darche's icetime, but at that point Darche was the #9 forward on the club and was on the third line alongside Eller, and Martin was using Eller as a tough-minutes defensive center. Darche ended up with a lot of icetime because Martin trusted Eller and Darche happened to be on Eller's wing.

Cunneyworth, OTOH, had Moen available, bumping Darche down to #10 on the depth chart, safely on the fourth line with Nokelainen and Blunden. What Cunneyworth did was not the same as Martin. He didn't use Eller as a tough-minutes center with Darche just along for the ride. He benched the Eller line halfway through the third and gave big minutes to his fourth line. I can only speculate about his motivations, but it seems Cunneyworth did this because he believed Blunden-Nokelainen-Darche would help him come back and win the game.

If there's one thing we learned about Martin, it's that he would never believe that.

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