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Randy Cunneyworth: a breath of fresh air

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Old
12-21-2011, 04:32 PM
  #26
MathMan
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I repeat myself, but if what Cunneyworth told Godin about rolling four lines is true, this is going to be a serious problem. The team is not going to win more games if it takes away minutes from good players to give them to Blunden and Nokelainen.

I could take or leave the forecheck, I think it's just a tradeoff, and while I suspect that it may prove not to be worth it especially against skilled teams with good PMDs, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and expect that this will be deployed strategically. But if the Boston game is typical of the personnel usage we can expect going forward -- and this article has me worried that it is -- then the system change is not going to be an issue, figuring out what to do with our draft pick will.

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12-21-2011, 04:32 PM
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I know Jigger and I'm teasing you. I respect that some people liked Martin. I just can't agree. Doesn't make you wrong and me right, it's a matter of taste. I can't stand him or his style.
I'm well aware.

We'll see how it plays out. In the end everyone who likes the Habs enough to post on here regularly all want the same thing anyway and that's a winning team.

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12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #28
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12-21-2011, 04:37 PM
  #29
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You know what's funny about the coaching change this time around? People here used to hate on Carbo for rolling 4 lines, then Martin was praised for shortening his bench in the third. Now Martin is hated for shortening his bench, and people praise Cunneyworth for rolling 4 lines. The argument has come full circle.

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12-21-2011, 04:46 PM
  #30
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I repeat myself, but if what Cunneyworth told Godin about rolling four lines is true, this is going to be a serious problem. The team is not going to win more games if it takes away minutes from good players to give them to Blunden and Nokelainen.

I could take or leave the forecheck, I think it's just a tradeoff, and while I suspect that it may prove not to be worth it especially against skilled teams with good PMDs, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and expect that this will be deployed strategically. But if the Boston game is typical of the personnel usage we can expect going forward -- and this article has me worried that it is -- then the system change is not going to be an issue, figuring out what to do with our draft pick will.
If you've played a bit of hockey, even at the minor hockey level under a decent coach, you will know that it takes more energy to apply a strong forecheck than it does to sit back and wait. So if you preach a strong forecheck, you better be rolling 4 fresh lines otherwise, you'll be burnt out in no time.

Also, the way Martin was using his fourth line, it was painfully obvious that his top players were totally out of juice in the third period as shown by the huge amount of leads surrendered in that period this season.

It is also a big misconception to think that it takes minutes away from your top players as they use that extra energy for special teams, instead of having the same guys do it all.

I have no doubt that it's for the best... but I'm not a fan of the hurry up and wait style of play.

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You know what's funny about the coaching change this time around? People here used to hate on Carbo for rolling 4 lines, then Martin was praised for shortening his bench in the third. Now Martin is hated for shortening his bench, and people praise Cunneyworth for rolling 4 lines. The argument has come full circle.
To be fair, I'm not so sure that all of that is done by the same people though.

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12-21-2011, 04:47 PM
  #31
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12-21-2011, 04:49 PM
  #32
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not undestand you at full )
post of 2011 right here

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12-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
If you've played a bit of hockey, even at the minor hockey level under a decent coach, you will know that it takes more energy to apply a strong forecheck than it does to sit back and wait. So if you preach a strong forecheck, you better be rolling 4 fresh lines otherwise, you'll be burnt out in no time.
Lower leagues are not like the NHL. I'm fairly sure none of us have the cardio of a NHL player.

I know Vancouver uses their fourth line very sparingly and I wouldn't call them stifling or defensive. Or Boston, who uses Paille, Caron and Thornton less than 9 minutes a game.

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Also, the way Martin was using his fourth line, it was painfully obvious that his top players were totally out of juice in the third period as shown by the huge amount of leads surrendered in that period this season.
Well, I'm sure we will not often have to worry about blowing third period leads if Blunden gets a lot of icetime in the first two!

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It is also a big misconception to think that it takes minutes away from your top players as they use that extra energy for special teams, instead of having the same guys do it all.
Except the top guys already play most the special teams. If Blunden gets more minutes, it cuts directly into someone else's ES time.

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12-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by All-Star View Post
You know what's funny about the coaching change this time around? People here used to hate on Carbo for rolling 4 lines, then Martin was praised for shortening his bench in the third. Now Martin is hated for shortening his bench, and people praise Cunneyworth for rolling 4 lines. The argument has come full circle.
Carbo rolled 4 lines because the team lacked talent throughout. Martin shortnened his bench but for the same reasons Carbo rolled 4 lines: to give his "dependable, lunch pail guys" more ice-time. Whereas Carbo needed to, Martin preferred to.

If you deal with the POTENTIAL talent of this squad, you'd see that it has the potential to run 4 very competent lines. Moen - Gomez - White is a potential 4th line!

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12-21-2011, 05:11 PM
  #35
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I like the way Randy has rewarded key players, like Darche, by upping his ice time while punishing problem players, like Emelin for actually trying to hit.
Don't think that's accurate. Diaz has actually been very solid lately and has brought some semblance of offense. Also, he's been mistake free (unlike others) and can be counted on. I love Emelin and would love to see him dish out hits, but it comes with a price. The tradeoff I'd rather make is a north-south game trading chances rather than going for big hits and landing them vs. missing them and creating more blunders. Emelin on the wrong side is going to lead to bad zone breakouts. Now I don't mean this with absolute certainty, but it has happened enough. Emelin will get to play again, but I think Cunney likes what he's seeing from Diaz. Good, solid zone exits. If that stops, I'm sure he'll go with Emelin.

For the first time in a lonnnnnng time, I've thought Darche deserved all the icetime he got, created momentum and played real in your face hockey as opposed to his light checks and saying sorry and being Mr. Nice Guy. The use of the 4th line also provided opportunities for the other lines to go up against weaker/more tired opposition. Look at the hitting stats for the last two games. We've been hitting and it's not about having Emelin who CAN hit, it's about players going over and above their normal JM style and doing a lot of hitting. I'm going to guess this came from Cunneyworth's guidance so in fact, the opposite of what you're saying (punishing hitting).

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12-21-2011, 05:19 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Carbo rolled 4 lines because the team lacked talent throughout. Martin shortnened his bench but for the same reasons Carbo rolled 4 lines: to give his "dependable, lunch pail guys" more ice-time. Whereas Carbo needed to, Martin preferred to.

If you deal with the POTENTIAL talent of this squad, you'd see that it has the potential to run 4 very competent lines. Moen - Gomez - White is a potential 4th line!
Carboneau ran his lines so his best even strength winger (Tanguay) played less than Kostopolous and Lapierre. That's bad bench management no matter how you slice it.

When Moen played up in the lines under Martin it was usually a matter of line matching, since he pursued a power versus power line system and Moen is one of his top defensive wingers. And until Pacioretty emerged the best Martin has ever had is 5 real top 6 players (although Pouliot made a decent impression of one for a short stretch). The year he got fired Carboneau had enough offensive depth to form 3 real offensive lines when healthy, 2-2 1/2 otherwise. He still played Kostopolous and Dandenault up the lineup.

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12-21-2011, 05:29 PM
  #37
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Would love to see RC get his first coaching win against the Hawks

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12-21-2011, 05:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Carboneau ran his lines so his best even strength winger (Tanguay) played less than Kostopolous and Lapierre. That's bad bench management no matter how you slice it.

When Moen played up in the lines under Martin it was usually a matter of line matching, since he pursued a power versus power line system and Moen is one of his top defensive wingers. And until Pacioretty emerged the best Martin has ever had is 5 real top 6 players (although Pouliot made a decent impression of one for a short stretch). The year he got fired Carboneau had enough offensive depth to form 3 real offensive lines when healthy, 2-2 1/2 otherwise. He still played Kostopolous and Dandenault up the lineup.
Carbo had size and injury problems. I thought he did a good job overall. Can't blame the coach when the top 6 can't win the puck because they are all 5 foot 8.

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12-21-2011, 06:02 PM
  #39
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I repeat myself, but if what Cunneyworth told Godin about rolling four lines is true, this is going to be a serious problem. The team is not going to win more games if it takes away minutes from good players to give them to Blunden and Nokelainen.

I could take or leave the forecheck, I think it's just a tradeoff, and while I suspect that it may prove not to be worth it especially against skilled teams with good PMDs, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and expect that this will be deployed strategically. But if the Boston game is typical of the personnel usage we can expect going forward -- and this article has me worried that it is -- then the system change is not going to be an issue, figuring out what to do with our draft pick will.
Not sure what his plan is, but if the 4th lines plays more than 10mins tonight it could get ugly. It would be fine to roll 4 lines, sometimes, if the team were fully healthy upfront because you'd probably have Darche/Blunded pushed out of the lineup. Right now they don't have that luxury.

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Old
12-21-2011, 06:10 PM
  #40
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Lower leagues are not like the NHL. I'm fairly sure none of us have the cardio of a NHL player.

I know Vancouver uses their fourth line very sparingly and I wouldn't call them stifling or defensive. Or Boston, who uses Paille, Caron and Thornton less than 9 minutes a game.
Mmmm... Boston has 2 forwards averaging less than 10 minutes a game. Let's look at some of the other top teams... Chicago, Detroit and Pittsburgh have 3, with Vancouver being the exception.

Habs have 5 and most of it because of the way Martin was draining it's top 9.

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Well, I'm sure we will not often have to worry about blowing third period leads if Blunden gets a lot of icetime in the first two!
That's your opinion. As a fan hoping for what's best for the team, here's hoping that I can throw that back in front of you in a few weeks. You have time to find an excuse. But with Gionta in the line-up, and with White close to returning, I doubt that Bunden will be a factor... maybe in Hamilton.

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Old
12-21-2011, 06:22 PM
  #41
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Carbo had size and injury problems. I thought he did a good job overall. Can't blame the coach when the top 6 can't win the puck because they are all 5 foot 8.
Martin had actually 5 foot 8 players in his lineup like Cammalleri, Gionta and Desharnais. Carboneau's supposed small forwards were guys like Koivu, Plekanec and Tanguay. None of whom were actually all that small just a smidgen under league average for a forward. Gionta and Desharnais are both pretty good forecheckers though so file that one for how much size actually matters versus being good.

Not to mention Martin has had much more injury problems then Carboneau ever did. The only year Montreal was good under Carboneau they had one of the best injury situations in the entire league. This year Martin is facing the worst injury situation in the NHL(although the Penguins and Blue Jackets aren't that far behind)

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12-21-2011, 06:24 PM
  #42
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It's only been two games and he finally was able to have a full practice with his "interim" team. But already, we can see the difference between Martin's system and what Cunneyworth is trying to implement.

First, we can notice that he preaches a much stronger forecheck with better support for the puck carrier to generate offense and scoring opportunities, which will suit a fast so much more than the passive and laid back style of Martin.

Also, it has been extremely noticeable that he wants his defensemen to be more active in supporting the offense, at least those who can do it. I don't know how many times already we've seen Kaberle, Subban, Campoli, Diaz getting deep into the attacking zone while a forward stayed back. This reminds me a lot of Alain Vigneault's new system since Mike Gillis took over as GM in Vancouver.

Of course, such aggressive forechek will, from time to time, create some odd man rushes the other way but with one of the best goalies in the NHL in net, it's a gamble I'm more than willing to work with. Also, more skating also means rotating four lines to keep everyone fresh, as it was painfully obvious that under Martin's three line system, they were running out of juice in the third period.

I can't wait to see Cunneyworth's team in a few weeks, with some quality practice time under their belt.

For those you can read French, here's a great article by Marc Antoine Godin, with comments from the players supporting what I'm advancing here.
Great synopsis.

Watching the last 2 games, it seems as though the players have been released from their shackles. It's been quite entertaining watching this team play. It's been a long time since I have thought that.


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12-21-2011, 06:41 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Martin had actually 5 foot 8 players in his lineup like Cammalleri, Gionta and Desharnais. Carboneau's supposed small forwards were guys like Koivu, Plekanec and Tanguay. None of whom were actually all that small just a smidgen under league average for a forward. Gionta and Desharnais are both pretty good forecheckers though so file that one for how much size actually matters versus being good.

Not to mention Martin has had much more injury problems then Carboneau ever did. The only year Montreal was good under Carboneau they had one of the best injury situations in the entire league. This year Martin is facing the worst injury situation in the NHL(although the Penguins and Blue Jackets aren't that far behind)
LOL that's bull ****. Not even close. So many teams had brutal BRUTAL injuries and still managed okay or decently. Injuries are most definitely no longer an excuse.

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12-21-2011, 06:48 PM
  #44
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Great synopsis.

Watching the last 2 games, it seems as though the players have been released from their shackles. It's been quite entertaining watching this team play. It's been a long time since I have thought that.
agreed, watching our players giving odd man rushes every other minute is quite exciting...

great news though, since our D have the green light now, a few of our forward will have a chance to better their D skills

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12-21-2011, 06:55 PM
  #45
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Habs have 5 and most of it because of the way Martin was draining it's top 9.
No, it's because of the revolving door caused by the injuries. Four of the five guys involved have played 15 games or less.


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That's your opinion. As a fan hoping for what's best for the team, here's hoping that I can throw that back in front of you in a few weeks. You have time to find an excuse. But with Gionta in the line-up, and with White close to returning, I doubt that Bunden will be a factor... maybe in Hamilton.
Let's pray for a swift return of Gomez and Gionta. This is what will make the team better. It's not unjustified coaching chances, and it's not playing your better players less and your worst players more.

Better yet, let's hope Cunneyworth decides against coaching like Carbonneau.

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12-21-2011, 06:57 PM
  #46
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LOL that's bull ****. Not even close. So many teams had brutal BRUTAL injuries and still managed okay or decently. Injuries are most definitely no longer an excuse.
Montreal has the most man-games, the most salary-games, and the most icetime-games lost to injury in the entire league. It really is the worst injury situation in the NHL.

Trotting out the "not an excuse" truism is simply bad analysis, as is pretending that this doesn't matter because the Habs don't have anyone who is any good anyway. This situation is the key reason why the Habs are underachieving.

(That, and their inability to spread their goals better. A team that is -1 in goal differential should be winning about half its games.)

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12-21-2011, 07:00 PM
  #47
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it's not about this coach rolled 3 lines, this coach rolls 4.

it should be about knowing WHEN to roll 3 and when to roll 4. it depends on the game, your opponent, the score and the clock.

i don't get wtf is so hard about pro-active coaching. almost everyone on here seems to have a better concept on how to best use the players we have but the people actually in charge don't seem to grasp that.

you don't need to be in the locker room if you can see the results of everything on the ice in front of you. seriously i swear it's rocket science to management.

if we could have a contest where we leave most things up to the coach, but had one or more HF members collectively handling some lines and lineups and usage, we could see better results that what they ice every night. and i mean this 100%

WE ARE SMARTER THAN THEM AND IT HURTS.

****ing simple things, like the PP...rinse wash fail, repeat. at least there's kabs now, but in terms of forwards, proactively ice your best line THAT GAME. (recently patch, DD and cole) instead of failing with these vets or whoever, based on merits.
oh this guy was great on PP last year, he shall forever remain on the PP no matter how ****** his play is. like seriously? just one small example of many that spawn thousands of posts per week on here. you ice who is hot, stop coaching from the past merits of whoever, it won't ****ing get you anywhere. the game is happening NOW, you coach based on what is happening NOW!


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12-21-2011, 07:01 PM
  #48
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LOL that's bull ****. Not even close. So many teams had brutal BRUTAL injuries and still managed okay or decently. Injuries are most definitely no longer an excuse.
That's not BS, it's fact, Habs have the most man-games lost to injuries, numero uno, for both games and cap $. The league average is far from being the same situation as the Habs are in.

Also, only a few situations are close to comparable, but none were to the extent that the Habs had. Naming a few exceptional teams that have several top 5 picks because they were unable to be competitive over 5 + years, won't be a valid argument against this. As for the other predictable example, I can't wait to see what 4 months of no Pronger will do to the Flyers, sure they've been good so far, but this might change in a hurry.

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12-21-2011, 07:09 PM
  #49
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missed cap money games don't really count for **** cause it's up to the teams if they for example want to pay a 4th liner 7 million dollars. he may cost a lot but it does't reflect the quality of the players missing action. (it should, but it's not an accurate depiction on this team) so i would really only consider man-games in the equation.

but i guess that stat is being added in there only to convey just how injured we are.

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12-21-2011, 07:10 PM
  #50
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Might help the offense, certainly won't help the defense. I guess we'll see.

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