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Four LA Kings prospects make preliminary WJC rosters

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12-15-2011, 10:22 AM
  #26
johnjm22
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Originally Posted by AKAY47 View Post
I still think that Derek Forbort was a mistake, no offense to whoever likes the kid. Our biggest problem at the time, and still is a very big problem, is scoring, Lombardi knew that. I don't know why he wouldn't go for a forward, especially after he already had such a deep pool of defensive prospects, Hickey, Teubert, Voynov, Martinez, Muzzin, Campbell. It just didn't make sense, Emerson Etem was who everyone wanted, a guy like Tarasenko was still on board. That first round pick was such a disappointment and I wouldn't even be surprised if Forbort never pans out, honestly. At least he made up for it by taking Toffoli in the next round, but still
I rarely agree with you, but I think you're right on this. I never liked the Forbort pick either. I'm not a fan of "project" picks in the 1st round.

DL is excellent at drafting in from the 2nd round on, but his 1st round picks are usually questionable.

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12-15-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AKAY47 View Post
I still think that Derek Forbort was a mistake, no offense to whoever likes the kid. Our biggest problem at the time, and still is a very big problem, is scoring, Lombardi knew that. I don't know why he wouldn't go for a forward, especially after he already had such a deep pool of defensive prospects, Hickey, Teubert, Voynov, Martinez, Muzzin, Campbell. It just didn't make sense, Emerson Etem was who everyone wanted, a guy like Tarasenko was still on board. That first round pick was such a disappointment and I wouldn't even be surprised if Forbort never pans out, honestly. At least he made up for it by taking Toffoli in the next round, but still
I agree that it was a redundant pick but I never mind a team going for the BPA regardless of position. Despite being stocked at D we don't have another defender in the pipeline with Forbort's size. That, and neither Etem nor Tarasenko are proven at the NA pro level yet. Doesn't take away from your point but it's worth keeping in mind. I don't think it's fair to judge picks so soon but Forbort's progress is definitely a little concerning.

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12-15-2011, 10:48 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I agree that it was a redundant pick but I never mind a team going for the BPA regardless of position. Despite being stocked at D we don't have another defender in the pipeline with Forbort's size. That, and neither Etem nor Tarasenko are proven at the NA pro level yet. Doesn't take away from your point but it's worth keeping in mind. I don't think it's fair to judge picks so soon but Forbort's progress is definitely a little concerning.
Meanwhile, the guy Florida took will the 19th pick (which the Kings originally had) has 16 goals in 20 games at Minnesota. Oh, yeah and he is a 6'5" forward.

It just keeps getting better...

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12-15-2011, 10:51 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Meanwhile, the guy Florida took will the 19th pick (which the Kings originally had) has 16 goals in 20 games at Minnesota. Oh, yeah and he is a 6'5" forward.

It just keeps getting better...
Hindsight is as cruel as you let it be. These kids are still playing junior or college hockey. Bjugstad in particular was a rangy kid coming out of high school and much more of a project than Forbort was at the time.

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12-15-2011, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I agree that it was a redundant pick but I never mind a team going for the BPA regardless of position. Despite being stocked at D we don't have another defender in the pipeline with Forbort's size. That, and neither Etem nor Tarasenko are proven at the NA pro level yet. Doesn't take away from your point but it's worth keeping in mind. I don't think it's fair to judge picks so soon but Forbort's progress is definitely a little concerning.
I agree. Taking the BPA is often the best method long term for an NHL team to use. Who knows exactly how your team will look 2-4 years later when a player is finally ready to join the pro team. When Forbort was taken, DL likely also factored in that Mitchell and Scuderi will be UFA's before Forbort comes out of college and I don't think anyone seen Martinez developing the way he has either, or Campbell for that matter. Don't forget as well that Voynov had mentioned leaving to go back to Europe if he didn't make the Kings soon, so that depth you speak of wasn't guaranteed to be there when Forbort come out of college.

DL's first rounders have been questionable for sure, but I still. say stick to picking the BPA. Maybe adjust your scouting staff though to get a better grip on who is the BPA.

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12-15-2011, 11:45 AM
  #31
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Hindsight is as cruel as you let it be. These kids are still playing junior or college hockey. Bjugstad in particular was a rangy kid coming out of high school and much more of a project than Forbort was at the time.
It is a bigger issue though.

The Kings have traded up twice and reached once to draft Hickey, Teubert, and Forbort. None of the three is likely to work out as planned.

I know you can't have a perfect track record at the draft but for all the emphasis that DL places on drafting, that is a VERY poor outcome.

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12-15-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I agree that it was a redundant pick but I never mind a team going for the BPA regardless of position. Despite being stocked at D we don't have another defender in the pipeline with Forbort's size. That, and neither Etem nor Tarasenko are proven at the NA pro level yet. Doesn't take away from your point but it's worth keeping in mind. I don't think it's fair to judge picks so soon but Forbort's progress is definitely a little concerning.
Once you get past the first few picks of the draft, the BPA become highly debatable. Need should at least be a consideration. I don't think you can say that Forbort was definitively better than forwards that were still on the table. This wasn't a situation where he was too good to pass up.

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12-15-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
The Kings have traded up twice and reached once to draft Hickey, Teubert, and Forbort. None of the three is likely to work out as planned.
Lewis and even Bernier were questionable picks as well.

I only call Bernier questionable because there's always good goaltending talent available outside the 1st round. Goaltenders are very unpredictable, I've never been a fan of using high picks on them.

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12-15-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
It is a bigger issue though.

The Kings have traded up twice and reached once to draft Hickey, Teubert, and Forbort. None of the three is likely to work out as planned.

I know you can't have a perfect track record at the draft but for all the emphasis that DL places on drafting, that is a VERY poor outcome.
I would rather my team identify a target and ensure they do what they can to add that prospect to the system rather than resting on their laurels for whatever prospect falls their way but I do agree that the first round selections have been lacking lately. DL has done a great job of maneuvering in the draft to get the player the scouting staff wants, but that staff should ultimately be held accountable for how those players turn out.

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12-15-2011, 01:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
It is a bigger issue though.

The Kings have traded up twice and reached once to draft Hickey, Teubert, and Forbort. None of the three is likely to work out as planned.

I know you can't have a perfect track record at the draft but for all the emphasis that DL places on drafting, that is a VERY poor outcome.
I agree on Hickey, but to me the jury is still out on Teubert and Forbort not panning out.

Teubert to me was drafted to be like a Steve Staios type of player, a physical, top four, shut them down type of defenseman who can wear a letter and bring some muscle. Like a better, tougher version of Matt Greene. If he pans out like this, I don't call that a bust.

If you want to compare him to Myers, go ahead. The draft is full of hindsight. DL and staff obviously didn't think Myers would pan out like he has. So did the other 10 teams or so that passed on him. It happens. I look more at whether or not the player was worthy of being picked where he was picked, and if Teubert pans out to be like a Staois type, I'm fine with that.

Forbort meanwhile is still in college and is trying out for the WJC USA team. Maybe we can let him go pro first before slamming him? Guys like that do take a while to round out, and college isn't as kind to big guys like him. Smaller players thrive in college. I want to see Forbort play some pro hockey before I call him a bust.

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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Once you get past the first few picks of the draft, the BPA become highly debatable. Need should at least be a consideration. I don't think you can say that Forbort was definitively better than forwards that were still on the table. This wasn't a situation where he was too good to pass up.
I think need should only be a consideration when it comes to goaltenders, simply because there's so few places to play them regularly. Really, if you have four good goaltenders (two in the NHL, and a starter in the AHL and ECHL) that's about all you need. The only reason I support the Gibson pik is because by the time he's ready to move to the pro ranks, there will likely be significant movement in the Kings goalie pecking order to allow him a chance to be the starter in Manchester.

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12-15-2011, 04:36 PM
  #36
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way too early to get down on Forbert.

- He was a prospect that we all knew would take extra time to develop
- He is a massive guy, they usually take longer
- He is a defenseman - they usually take longer
- He is a college player - they usually take longer

The dude has size, a brain, skill, and skating ability. These are usually things that make for players who spend 15 years in the show. Give the kid a chance. We can't change the past, so no use complaining about it or I would still be on a daily rant about the Hickey pick.

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12-15-2011, 04:52 PM
  #37
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way too early to get down on Forbert.

- He was a prospect that we all knew would take extra time to develop
- He is a massive guy, they usually take longer
- He is a defenseman - they usually take longer
- He is a college player - they usually take longer

The dude has size, a brain, skill, and skating ability. These are usually things that make for players who spend 15 years in the show. Give the kid a chance. We can't change the past, so no use complaining about it or I would still be on a daily rant about the Hickey pick.
no argument but it is a concern that every time I watch him (admittedly on TV) he never does anything to stand out as a #1 pick. He is not overly physical, doesn't jump up into the attack with any authority, doesn't have a great shot (or doesn't use it very much if he does), and seems to play "timid". I really don't even have a good NHL comparison for him...maybe a poor man's JayBo.

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12-15-2011, 05:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I agree that it was a redundant pick but I never mind a team going for the BPA regardless of position. Despite being stocked at D we don't have another defender in the pipeline with Forbort's size. That, and neither Etem nor Tarasenko are proven at the NA pro level yet. Doesn't take away from your point but it's worth keeping in mind. I don't think it's fair to judge picks so soon but Forbort's progress is definitely a little concerning.
This isn't really true as at that time the Kings had Teubert and Campbell, and also picked up another D-man with size later in that draft in Gravel...

To me it comes down to if the Kings stay at 19 they can take Etem there, Toffoli in the 2nd and still have that pick at 59 to work with. To me trading up to take Forbort was a mistake, one I didn't even like on draft day because if the Kings stay at 19 they get an arguable equal player in Etem, Bjugstad, or whoever else they wanted, and then been around at 59 to take a d-man like Gudas, Beukeboom, Biega, or Johns there. Doubling addressing their most pressing need in scoring and picking up a solid d-man prospect at the end of the 2nd. I understand none of those guys have the upside of Forbort but all of those listed seem to me at least, to be just as big of projects as he is, so I'd put them as similar risk/reward wise.

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12-15-2011, 06:35 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
This isn't really true as at that time the Kings had Teubert and Campbell, and also picked up another D-man with size later in that draft in Gravel...

To me it comes down to if the Kings stay at 19 they can take Etem there, Toffoli in the 2nd and still have that pick at 59 to work with. To me trading up to take Forbort was a mistake, one I didn't even like on draft day because if the Kings stay at 19 they get an arguable equal player in Etem, Bjugstad, or whoever else they wanted, and then been around at 59 to take a d-man like Gudas, Beukeboom, Biega, or Johns there. Doubling addressing their most pressing need in scoring and picking up a solid d-man prospect at the end of the 2nd. I understand none of those guys have the upside of Forbort but all of those listed seem to me at least, to be just as big of projects as he is, so I'd put them as similar risk/reward wise.
That's a fair point but you're talking about three one-dimensional defensemen. Forbort is unique in that he's actually got a good deal of offensive talent. I think as far as a comparable, you can look to Tyler Myers (()). It makes sense that after missing out on Myers, the Kings wouldn't want to pass up on Forbort.

I didn't like the pick all that much and still don't (I was at the draft and was almost positive they were trading up to pick Etem or Beau Bennett) but at the same time, I get it. The Kings thought Forbort was head and shoulders above the rest of the talent available so they did what they had to in order to get him. IIRC they weren't expecting him to be available anywhere near the 15 spot and had him ranked up in the top 10. If you really believe that a player is a top 10 pick and you can get him at the 15 spot, I think you have to do it. Ultimately the scouting staff as a whole came to the consensus that it was the right move. I think if they thought Etem, Bjugstad, etc were truly equal in upside to Forbort that they would've stood pat.

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12-16-2011, 02:02 AM
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Lewis and even Bernier were questionable picks as well.

I only call Bernier questionable because there's always good goaltending talent available outside the 1st round. Goaltenders are very unpredictable, I've never been a fan of using high picks on them.
I mean, you could say that about any draft. The Kings could have drafted Giroux instead of Bernier or Lewis in 2006, Couture over Hickey in 2007, Myers over Teubert in 2008, the list can go on and on.

Imagine that team.

Gagne - Kopitar - Giroux
Couture - Richards - Brown
Clifford - Stoll - Richardson

Myers - Doughty
Johnson - Voinov

Blah, blah, blah.

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12-16-2011, 09:41 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
This isn't really true as at that time the Kings had Teubert and Campbell, and also picked up another D-man with size later in that draft in Gravel...

To me it comes down to if the Kings stay at 19 they can take Etem there, Toffoli in the 2nd and still have that pick at 59 to work with. To me trading up to take Forbort was a mistake, one I didn't even like on draft day because if the Kings stay at 19 they get an arguable equal player in Etem, Bjugstad, or whoever else they wanted, and then been around at 59 to take a d-man like Gudas, Beukeboom, Biega, or Johns there. Doubling addressing their most pressing need in scoring and picking up a solid d-man prospect at the end of the 2nd. I understand none of those guys have the upside of Forbort but all of those listed seem to me at least, to be just as big of projects as he is, so I'd put them as similar risk/reward wise.
Two problems with your logic.

First, this is all hindsight. If Etem, for example, didn't pan out like he is, you wuldn't be saying they could have taken Etem. When the draft is done, DL and crew don't have that benefit, they go with who they think is going to be the best at the time. If DL had two years hindsight on Hickey, I doubt he'd have taken him either. It's easy to draft when you get to look back on it 18 months after it happened.

As well, how would DL know that guys like Beukeboom, Biega, etc would still be there at 59? Maybe he didn't like the draft much that year and felt it was better to get quality than quantity so he went for it on Forbort?

Secondly, if you aren't talking hindsight, then Etem wouldn't have been the guy DL picked anyways. DL obviously thought Forbort was the top guy on his list, and not just tops by a little bit, tops enough to trade up for him. If Dl stayed at 19, who says Forbort wouldn't have fallen that far? Obviously DL didn't think he would, but it could have happened. And if he did, DL would have taken him anyways.

Mistakes happen, it's the draft. DL's first round drafting record, outside of Bernier and Doughty, has been at best spotty, but overall he's done well at the draft. Don't pick at one pick here or there, look at the draft as a whole. Be thankful we don't draft like the Atlanta Thrashers who could barely hit on anyone unless they were picking in the top 5 picks at the draft.

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12-16-2011, 10:20 AM
  #42
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It's not hindsight I wanted Etem from almost the first time I saw the rankings, same thing with guys like Beukeboom, Johns, Gudas, Bjugstad (I saw him play alot living in Minnesota). I understand the idea of draft rankings and that, and I guess that's what I disagree with DL and his staff on. I agree with the 14 teams that picked in that draft before the Kings, that Forbort was not the best available player at that time in the draft. I'll have to see if I can track down my list I posted on here of my dream Kings draft from that year... I remember wanting Etem and Smith-Pelley really badly and was crushed when the _ucks took both of them.

My point I guess is that I somewhat agree that DL and his scouting staff seem to have a poor track record in the first round and get much stronger in later rounds for whatever reason.

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12-16-2011, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
It's not hindsight I wanted Etem from almost the first time I saw the rankings, same thing with guys like Beukeboom, Johns, Gudas, Bjugstad (I saw him play alot living in Minnesota). I understand the idea of draft rankings and that, and I guess that's what I disagree with DL and his staff on. I agree with the 14 teams that picked in that draft before the Kings, that Forbort was not the best available player at that time in the draft. I'll have to see if I can track down my list I posted on here of my dream Kings draft from that year... I remember wanting Etem and Smith-Pelley really badly and was crushed when the _ucks took both of them.

My point I guess is that I somewhat agree that DL and his scouting staff seem to have a poor track record in the first round and get much stronger in later rounds for whatever reason.
Yeah, YOU wanted. It doesn't matter what you or me wanted, it's the scouting staff. If they had hidsight and could see Etem scoring a goal a game in junior, maybe they change their pick. But it's all relative. It's also not fair to say that the 14 teams above LA didn't think Forbort was the BPA at the 15th pick, because you dodn't know where they had him ranked. He could theoretically be ranked 2nd best player on 14 different lists, but on each of those lists the best player was different and still available. Unlikely I agree, but my point is that just because those 14 teams didn't take Forbort doesn't mean that he was high on at least some of their lists as well.

I do agree though, DL and crew can hardly boast about their first round picks thus far. Doughty was 2nd overall, so almost a guarantee of a good pick, and the rest have yet to amount to much (even Bernier is still a back up).

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12-22-2011, 09:55 AM
  #44
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Forbort and Gravel both made it for the US.

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12-22-2011, 10:24 AM
  #45
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Forbort and Gravel both made it for the US.
thats great news for US fans. I am bummed Toffoli didn't make it for Canada. It would be nice to put him against the best of his peers.

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